Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:57 pm

Flex wrote:If they change the farm system I'll kick a baby.


what if they allow us to have multiples of 5 plots, instead of 4 :P

I think the farm is fine, personally. I used it pretty heavily early on, but have relaxed on it a great deal.

If anything, perhaps allow the hangers-on on the farm to actually help you. Perhaps they can pick stuff for you if you leave it longer than X days.

I'd also like to see them continue to use it in the next expansion, or something like it... it seems like a fantastic idea I'd hate to see die with MOP.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Flex » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:05 pm

I actually level alts for the farm. My priest had 500+ bolts of cloth from me killing Zandalari rares so level to 90 and start planting Songbells.

The farm is my ideal player housing. Have materials from every released expansion available to be planted and made, basically an F U Khorium! bypass. Combine it with Achievement awards, like killing Garrosh will give you a thing to decorate the house, and BAM! Player housing with decorations. Inviting a player to your group lets them see your house.

Friends of the farm should negate one of the negative status effects. Like if you hate the vines you have to get to a 50 stack to clear a specific friend will tend your farm to negate that status effect so you never see it.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:55 am

Flex wrote:I actually level alts for the farm. My priest had 500+ bolts of cloth from me killing Zandalari rares so level to 90 and start planting Songbells.

The farm is my ideal player housing. Have materials from every released expansion available to be planted and made, basically an F U Khorium! bypass. Combine it with Achievement awards, like killing Garrosh will give you a thing to decorate the house, and BAM! Player housing with decorations. Inviting a player to your group lets them see your house.

Friends of the farm should negate one of the negative status effects. Like if you hate the vines you have to get to a 50 stack to clear a specific friend will tend your farm to negate that status effect so you never see it.



I'm pretty sure I wasn't alone in thinking that the friends on your farm would do something like that. That they just added a cosmetic presence was a bit of a let down. I'd loved to have been able to give them a job like 'clear the weeds', 'knock down those vines', 'chase the virmin away' or 'help out those runty crops', etc. Basically something that actually made a difference on your farm rather than them just taking up space.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nooska » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:23 am

lythac wrote:I'm also in favour of pushing back raid release to one week after patch so for me it would fit. And open Heroic mode at the same time as normal.


Whats the difference, when heroic and normal share a lockout, and heroic requires killing the last boss on normal? (I think they mainly lock it out for a week to prevent "creative" ways around the requirements - was it server changing or faction changing that reset the lockout for someone?
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:04 am

Nooska wrote:
lythac wrote:I'm also in favour of pushing back raid release to one week after patch so for me it would fit. And open Heroic mode at the same time as normal.


Whats the difference, when heroic and normal share a lockout, and heroic requires killing the last boss on normal? (I think they mainly lock it out for a week to prevent "creative" ways around the requirements - was it server changing or faction changing that reset the lockout for someone?


I think implicit in there was eliminating the need to clear normal first, or at least that's what I'd do.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Worldie » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:09 am

Nooska wrote:Whats the difference, when heroic and normal share a lockout, and heroic requires killing the last boss on normal? (I think they mainly lock it out for a week to prevent "creative" ways around the requirements - was it server changing or faction changing that reset the lockout for someone?

Server transfer still resets all your lockouts if you change battlegroup.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nooska » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:01 pm

^^ Aye, hence the lockout for 1 week, so the world first guilds don't have to jump through hoops and spend money on bein in the running (I'm assuming they like that).

If you ad access to heroic right off the bat, then Normal would probably have to be retuned a bit (as it is no longer the prerequisite for heroics, but just a level of difficulty for itself).
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Flex » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:05 pm

The normal clear is some sort of relic they're holding onto for reasons that are no longer really valid. It might've made sense with the 2 mode introduction in LK with different lockouts for 10s and 25s, previous tier 25s doing new tier heroic 10s for example, but now I don't see a need for it.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nooska » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:12 pm

I see one reason for requiring normal before heroic - it measn the raidgroups that can't go straight into heroics don't feel like they have to do it twoce (over the real heroic raiders doing it once).

However, differentiating the difficulties completely, also means normal is not a gearing up (actual gear as well as skill/practice) for heroics, and you could have a normal mode guild that did normal mode strict (in regards to world first race - I doubt anyone would feel it was credible if Method or paragon or one of those guilds went for the normal progresion first - also it would ruin the heroic schedule I'm assuming).
It would also allow for normal to be actual progression for a lot of people, whereas today its almost "well we gotta get through normal so we can start raiding for realzies" - if they felt heroic is the real place for them they could be told to go to a heroic guild.

That could leave Heroic for the hardcore, normal for the majority, and flex for the uneven/irregular sized freinds and family groups (and LFR for those that can't commit to a set raiding schedule).

It would also mean that heroics could be tuned fr having cleared previous tier heroic (and then be challenging), normals for having run previous tier normals, and be somewhat less challenging (than heroics relative to previous tier), flex to be another step down, and LFR to pretty much be what it is today.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:31 pm

Nooska wrote:I see one reason for requiring normal before heroic - it measn the raidgroups that can't go straight into heroics don't feel like they have to do it twoce (over the real heroic raiders doing it once).

However, differentiating the difficulties completely, also means normal is not a gearing up (actual gear as well as skill/practice) for heroics, and you could have a normal mode guild that did normal mode strict (in regards to world first race - I doubt anyone would feel it was credible if Method or paragon or one of those guilds went for the normal progresion first - also it would ruin the heroic schedule I'm assuming).
It would also allow for normal to be actual progression for a lot of people, whereas today its almost "well we gotta get through normal so we can start raiding for realzies" - if they felt heroic is the real place for them they could be told to go to a heroic guild.

That could leave Heroic for the hardcore, normal for the majority, and flex for the uneven/irregular sized freinds and family groups (and LFR for those that can't commit to a set raiding schedule).

It would also mean that heroics could be tuned fr having cleared previous tier heroic (and then be challenging), normals for having run previous tier normals, and be somewhat less challenging (than heroics relative to previous tier), flex to be another step down, and LFR to pretty much be what it is today.


Wait... current heroics *aren't* tuned for having cleared the previous tier's heroics?

I don't see any reasonable approach that would remove lower difficulties as a possible gearing route either. Sure, you may not be able to do both (normal + heroic, like now, for example)... but the option would still be there.

Even now, aren't mechanics getting different enough that the different difficulty fights can really be different fights? (i.e. other than the room and the boss and a few abilities being the same - what you need to do is completely different)
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Newsom » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:47 pm

Do not want. I like my slacker gear collecting week before progress madness begins. It's also nice to not really have to care about doing all the PTR tests, since you can see most of the fight on normal anyway. If that wasn't the case PTR would be even more mandatory. Also jumping right into heroic progress on patch day would not be fun at all with all the broken addons and class changes.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby daishan » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:28 am

Newsom wrote:Do not want. I like my slacker gear collecting week before progress madness begins. It's also nice to not really have to care about doing all the PTR tests, since you can see most of the fight on normal anyway. If that wasn't the case PTR would be even more mandatory. Also jumping right into heroic progress on patch day would not be fun at all with all the broken addons and class changes.


^^ This!

Gives Blizz an extra week to fix any broken encounters and classes.
Almost certain GC said a few months back that they like the extra week to fix any bugs they missed on the ptr and are unlikely to open heroic first week for that reason.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:03 am

I think the idea is that both modes would get pushed back. At least that is what I'd been thinking. First day normal can't be much fun either...
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby daishan » Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:57 am

benebarba wrote:I think the idea is that both modes would get pushed back. At least that is what I'd been thinking. First day normal can't be much fun either...


It's true that first day of normals can be messy, but the "average" normal mode guild is unlikely to be killing more than a few bosses in the first reset, meaning as long as the first few bosses aren't bugged there's a good chance Blizz will have any broken mechanics or balance problems fixed before most normal raiders pull those bosses.

If both normal and heroic opened week 2 of the patch it would probably cut down on server instability and some of the class balance bugs but would almost certainly lead to slower fixes to raid encounters as Blizz would have all the bugs in normal mode to fix (with less data from the reduced number of normal mode kills) plus heroic only mechanics and the heroic world 1st race to keep an eye on.

Imo there's almost no advantages to opening heroic the same week as normal but several negatives.

I personally wouldn't mind if it went like
Week 1 patch goes live, Week 2 normals open, Week 3 heroics, tho that's probably overkill for a mid expansion patch (worked great at the start of MoP).
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:08 am

daishan wrote:
benebarba wrote:I think the idea is that both modes would get pushed back. At least that is what I'd been thinking. First day normal can't be much fun either...


It's true that first day of normals can be messy, but the "average" normal mode guild is unlikely to be killing more than a few bosses in the first reset, meaning as long as the first few bosses aren't bugged there's a good chance Blizz will have any broken mechanics or balance problems fixed before most normal raiders pull those bosses.

If both normal and heroic opened week 2 of the patch it would probably cut down on server instability and some of the class balance bugs but would almost certainly lead to slower fixes to raid encounters as Blizz would have all the bugs in normal mode to fix (with less data from the reduced number of normal mode kills) plus heroic only mechanics and the heroic world 1st race to keep an eye on.

Imo there's almost no advantages to opening heroic the same week as normal but several negatives.

I personally wouldn't mind if it went like
Week 1 patch goes live, Week 2 normals open, Week 3 heroics, tho that's probably overkill for a mid expansion patch (worked great at the start of MoP).


Yeah, good points. I think the schedule you describe would be better, but I wonder if it would be acceptable to the playerbase.

Would you also keep the requirement to clear normal to get into heroics? I figure it could let a couple things happen: 1) remove an artificial barrier to the guilds that really could just walk right into heroic and have at it, 2) make it more 'organic' for those guilds that would want to go through normal first.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nooska » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:41 am

benebarba wrote:
Nooska wrote:I see one reason for requiring normal before heroic - it measn the raidgroups that can't go straight into heroics don't feel like they have to do it twoce (over the real heroic raiders doing it once).

However, differentiating the difficulties completely, also means normal is not a gearing up (actual gear as well as skill/practice) for heroics, and you could have a normal mode guild that did normal mode strict (in regards to world first race - I doubt anyone would feel it was credible if Method or paragon or one of those guilds went for the normal progresion first - also it would ruin the heroic schedule I'm assuming).
It would also allow for normal to be actual progression for a lot of people, whereas today its almost "well we gotta get through normal so we can start raiding for realzies" - if they felt heroic is the real place for them they could be told to go to a heroic guild.

That could leave Heroic for the hardcore, normal for the majority, and flex for the uneven/irregular sized freinds and family groups (and LFR for those that can't commit to a set raiding schedule).

It would also mean that heroics could be tuned fr having cleared previous tier heroic (and then be challenging), normals for having run previous tier normals, and be somewhat less challenging (than heroics relative to previous tier), flex to be another step down, and LFR to pretty much be what it is today.


Wait... current heroics *aren't* tuned for having cleared the previous tier's heroics?

Not really, no., they are tuned after having done previous tier heroics OR run through current tier normal (and expects current tier normal).
If you went straight for heroic as a heroic raiding guild, the ilvl difference could also be squashed, as T2 normal doesn't have to be equal or higher ilvl than T1 hc, as it is not expected for heroic raiders to run T2 normal, nor for T2 normal to have gone for T1 heroic (except maybe a bit) - worst case they could make T2N 1 or 2 ilvls higher than T1H, so the guilds that did normal and the got to do a little heroic didn't feel like progressing T2 was 'wrong'.

Also, while not said explicitly, I was looking at the "push back all raids 1 week from patch" suggestion.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:51 am

We need those numbers patches soon before the bonfires made from all the soapboxes here burn the joint down.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Thels » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:27 am

Keep in mind that there is a wide range of players. There aren't just group A who clears every raid instance on heroic, and group B who clears every raid instance on normal, and doesn't touch heroic bosses.

A lot of people progress slowly through normal content, and once they cleared the normal content, they try their hands at a couple of the heroic bosses. Guilds that manage to kill Lei Shen can certainly manage to kill HC Jin-Rokh, Ji-Kun and Iron Qon with a little more gear. If T15 heroic and T16 normal would have the same ilvl, it would mean that a lot of T16 normal gear would not be an upgrade to them.

Overall, I'm one of those people that loved Vanilla/TBC where there was a real server community, no queue system, no people server hopping, actual raid progression, raid attunements and what not. It made me feel like we had to adjust to the world around us, rather than the world around us adjusting to our every needs.

However, the cat's out of the box, and it's not possible to put it back in. I do however consider HC Scenarios and Flex Raiding a step back in the right direction.
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