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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby benebarba » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:40 am

fuzzygeek wrote:I don't understand this argument. Does it boil down to: all raids should share loot lockout so running all difficulties is not incentivized?


to put it charitably, or slightly less so:

I want there to be loot lockouts, or at least something that gives me an extra chance at some sort of upgrade over the previous tier without doing content below the level I wish to play.
Last edited by benebarba on Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:41 am

fuzzygeek wrote:I don't understand this argument. Does it boil down to: all raids should share loot lockout so running all difficulties is not incentivized?

In a sense, yes. Although the only ones asking for that are heroic raiders.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Teranoid » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:08 am

fuzzygeek wrote:I don't understand this argument. Does it boil down to: all raids should share loot lockout so running all difficulties is not incentivized?


It boils down to "I'm trying so desperately to be a special snowflake and LFR/Flex shouldn't drop any useable loot because I'm a loot obsessed drone with no self control"
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:50 am

Darielle wrote:But:
- The only people talking about anyone being forced to do anything are you.


Forced is in quotes because it isn't forced, but it is the mentality displayed by the people complaining. Much in the same way I said people were "forced" to do dailies in 5.0.

But from the way you're arguing you feel people who greatly benefit from trinkets or tier bonuses are "forced" to do content below their level since the power incentive is so great.

And it was the self-playing of AC3 that was batty to me, the platforming section was point and run for the most part. Luckily I also got Dishonored for $10 so I can enjoy a game.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:29 am

So... heroic raider still wants to be special, right? Ok, how about this. Put HC on it's own lockout. Once you start on a HC lockout, you can downrank to normal on that lockout, but are unable to run LFR or Flex that week. If you only run normal, you are allowed to go into Flex and LFR as separate lockouts.

There, now the HC snowflakes aren't incentivized *coughforcedcough* to run the other lockouts, and no one else gets screwed by the snowflake protection lockout.

Edit: One more addition. If you do Flex or LFR earlier in the week, you will be unable to attempt heroic bosses that week.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Winkle » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:51 am

I think Darielle's main point was that from a design perspective Blizzard are incentivising something that people find boring/not fun to do.

In a similar way to being feel compelled to do a lot of daily's, etc.

I don't think anyone is arguing that you can choose not to do that content. But that as a general design principal it's pretty poor.

I feel it's very easy to say "If you don't enjoy it don't do it" but a lot of people "do it" anyway. And it's whether this playstyle is healthy/good for the game that is the real issue.

I don't think Darielle, or other hc raiders feel that LFR undermines their awesomeness. They'd just rather not feel incentivised to do it. I know i share the opinion myself. I also know i'm awesome in my HC gear.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:57 am

'cept it's not a real incentive. Blizz just says, here's the loottables based on which version of the raid you do.

It's the hard core raider that looks across their content and into the LFR/Flex and says "I assign this subjective value to this particular shiny, therefore Blizz is incentivizing me to run LFR/Flex to get an extra chance at shiny"

The difference between the dailies and the LFR/Flex having a subjective value to HC raiders is that people were calling for the rewards of the dailies to be more open (not being restricted behind VP and Rep), whereas the HC raiders want the rewards from LFR/Flex to be more restricted so the game prevents them from falling into temptation.

Darielle's earlier proposal was a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist, and only causes more problems than it solves.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Winkle » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:08 am

I agree with all your points except that i don't agree the problem doesn't exist.

Whether it's worth addressing is another issue. Certainly it's possible to pick holes in Blizzard's interpretation of the issue of assigning loot to 4 raid difficulties. However with a system as complicated as this one it's difficult to see how you could possible please everyone.

I for one am at least in favor of Flex, and i will choose to do this over LFR simply because it's more community driven which i think is an important aspect of mmo's that needs to be preserved.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:09 am

Winkle wrote:I don't think Darielle, or other hc raiders feel that LFR undermines their awesomeness. They'd just rather not feel incentivised to do it. I know i share the opinion myself. I also know i'm awesome in my HC gear.


Yes, but it seems that for LFR and Flex to not "incentivize" HC raiders, it seems that they want to so nuke LFR and Flex that NO one would want to do it, especially considering the forum posters that want to remove loot from LFR completely.

That's why I like my HC lockout idea. You are that leet, you are locked out from running the other content.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:26 am

Winkle wrote:I agree with all your points except that i don't agree the problem doesn't exist.

Whether it's worth addressing is another issue. Certainly it's possible to pick holes in Blizzard's interpretation of the issue of assigning loot to 4 raid difficulties. However with a system as complicated as this one it's difficult to see how you could possible please everyone.

I for one am at least in favor of Flex, and i will choose to do this over LFR simply because it's more community driven which i think is an important aspect of mmo's that needs to be preserved.


Fine, the problem exist, but for a really small fraction of the population, which is why I think Watcher took that position on his post, and considers it to be pretty much a non-problem.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Nooska » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:57 am

I'm going to recall what I've sai before - back when I was a HC raider, now not even an LFR raider.
The probelm does exist.
I've yet to see any suggested solutions that would satisfy any criteria that are fair.

In DS one of our other tanks kept telling me I should run LFR to get the 4pc bonus (which I did not see as very interesting, based on our actual raid composition and what we had issues with) - henc eI didn't do it.
(Of course, it didn't help, that that same tank ran LFR, and picked up tier pieces in normal too (!) and used them for his dps spec (I was not the maintank, so no excuse there) - of course we did see the same ... shall we call it self-centeredness- when said tank defected to servers top guild without notice leaving us with a probelm on the dps front (that was directly contributing to the collapse of the raidgroup).
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby oldboyz » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:18 pm

4 differents id & difficulty is indeed too much

from start, flex should have been set for NM. and not create a new f### intermidairay level

-at one extrem :
for those solo player, whitout any agenda control, no full dedication for raid --> LFR
-at the other extrem :
for "minmax" players --> HardMode
-in between
for standard pve roster --> Normal mode, with the option to ajust raid lengh, which allow some more easier roster management and less stress for "normal" guild (and then later, try HM with their top player)
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:29 pm

oldboyz wrote:from start, flex should have been set for NM. and not create a new f### intermidairay level


I'm betting Aaron Rodger's next year salary on Flex replacing NM next expac.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:29 pm

I actually do think having a step in between LFR and Normal is nice. LFR is too piss easy. Everyone and their mom can do it. But that's just the way some people like it, so LFR has it's place. It's currently a gigantic step from LFR to Normal, and a lot of people want to move on from LFR, but simply have no place in a Normal guild. For those people that are farming LFR, but can't connect to Normal, Flex is a place. Scrapping Normal for Flex doesn't seem like a good idea to me, because both have their places.

I disagree with the people that keep yelling "If you don't wanna do it, then don't do it." If you have an option to improve yourself, you can choose between "Improving yourself" and "Holding back 9 or 24 of your buddies". The people that keep yelling "If you don't wanna do it, then don't do it." are basically yelling "You should hold 9 or 24 of your buddies back." Not everyone feels comfortable about holding back their buddies, even if it's only to a small degree. WoW is not a singleplayer game. Doing something or not doing something doesn't just affect yourself, it affects a lot of other players too.

If there is an option to gear up, then there's a big incentive for people to do that, and people will do that content for various reasons other than that they enjoy that part of the content. A bit of that is healthy in WoW. After all, it's an "investment leads to reward" kind of game. It starts to become a problem when there's too much investment to be had within a certain amount of time.

However, loot lockout has a lot of strings attached, and doesn't actually fix the problem. In some cases, it might make things worse. Hence loot lockout is not the solution.

Actual raid lockout like Halabar suggests is also not an option that feels like something that would work well. First off, it might urge people to run normals + flex + LFR instead of HCs for a week or 2-3 longer, just for the increased chances of loot, rather than trying the first boss HC, if you're not really feeling ready for it yet. It will demoralize people that might be ready to start HC from actually trying to do HC.

Secondly, some of the HC raiders actually enjoy a more casual evening with some friends in the Flex environment, without having to worry about lockouts, or that some of their friends aren't exactly ready for raiding yet. These players would be needlessly locked out of enjoyable content.

Finally, the problem remains where you can't bring in people for certain bosses, if they did LFR or Flex already.

In the end, I think it's best to keep things the way they are right now. Yes, it's a bit of a problem and annoyance that even if you are a Normal or HC raider, it might be advantageous to run LFR or Flex, but it's being minimized while still keeping the loot rewarding for those to whom LFR and Flex are intended. It is extra investment for a small bit of reward, but is it really so bad compared to say 5.0 where you had to run LFR and a ton of dailies every day next to your normal/heroic raiding?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:49 pm

Thels wrote:I disagree with the people that keep yelling "If you don't wanna do it, then don't do it." If you have an option to improve yourself, you can choose between "Improving yourself" and "Holding back 9 or 24 of your buddies". The people that keep yelling "If you don't wanna do it, then don't do it." are basically yelling "You should hold 9 or 24 of your buddies back." Not everyone feels comfortable about holding back their buddies, even if it's only to a small degree. WoW is not a singleplayer game. Doing something or not doing something doesn't just affect yourself, it affects a lot of other players too.

If there is an option to gear up, then there's a big incentive for people to do that, and people will do that content for various reasons other than that they enjoy that part of the content. A bit of that is healthy in WoW. After all, it's an "investment leads to reward" kind of game. It starts to become a problem when there's too much investment to be had within a certain amount of time.


This was the reason my old guild/raid fell apart, several people had no desire for dailies, and decided to quit the game cuz they felt they were holding the raid back. I took the poison pill and trudged thru the dailies until I got over the hump. But in the end, it was a choice. Some chose to do the dailies, some didn't.


Thels wrote:However, loot lockout has a lot of strings attached, and doesn't actually fix the problem. In some cases, it might make things worse. Hence loot lockout is not the solution.

Actual raid lockout like Halabar suggests is also not an option that feels like something that would work well. First off, it might urge people to run normals + flex + LFR instead of HCs for a week or 2-3 longer, just for the increased chances of loot, rather than trying the first boss HC, if you're not really feeling ready for it yet. It will demoralize people that might be ready to start HC from actually trying to do HC.

Secondly, some of the HC raiders actually enjoy a more casual evening with some friends in the Flex environment, without having to worry about lockouts, or that some of their friends aren't exactly ready for raiding yet. These players would be needlessly locked out of enjoyable content.

Finally, the problem remains where you can't bring in people for certain bosses, if they did LFR or Flex already.

In the end, I think it's best to keep things the way they are right now. Yes, it's a bit of a problem and annoyance that even if you are a Normal or HC raider, it might be advantageous to run LFR or Flex, but it's being minimized while still keeping the loot rewarding for those to whom LFR and Flex are intended. It is extra investment for a small bit of reward, but is it really so bad compared to say 5.0 where you had to run LFR and a ton of dailies every day next to your normal/heroic raiding?

This is why I think Slashie's solution would be worse than the "problem" she's trying to solve.

And I think Watcher agrees that the best thing is to keep the status quo, which is why he replied like that in that post.
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