LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:07 pm

Straight from Theck

...

Further, there’s a social problem with increasing the ilvl gap even further. Nobody likes to feel like a second-class citizen. But as the ilvl gap between LFR and Normal increases, that’s exactly what LFR players feel increasingly like.


You ARE aware, if you're attempting to quote Theck on this particular tidbit, that the gap between LFR and Normal (and for that matter Flex and Normal) would and will stay exactly the same no matter which goes where, right? And that it takes bending quite a few straws to interpret T14/T15's LFR ilvl to "sympathy" so much as "byproduct of half-offset in T14 between MSV and HoF" (arguing that T14 had a 20ilvl gap is a little bit silly when 483-->496)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Teranoid » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:04 pm

Of course there's a social problem with it because we're in the entitlement era where everyone thinks they should have everything regardless of the time invested which is what has caused this giant mess to begin with.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:15 pm

Teranoid wrote:Of course there's a social problem with it because we're in the entitlement era where everyone thinks they should have everything regardless of the time invested which is what has caused this giant mess to begin with.


I don't think I'm arguing in favor of that, at least not directly. That said, I merely point out that taking the nerf bat to LFR/Flex in order to make heroic raiders feel better is not the way to go, and thus, will argue against it whenever it pops up.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:42 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Teranoid wrote:Of course there's a social problem with it because we're in the entitlement era where everyone thinks they should have everything regardless of the time invested which is what has caused this giant mess to begin with.


I don't think I'm arguing in favor of that, at least not directly. That said, I merely point out that taking the nerf bat to LFR/Flex in order to make heroic raiders feel better is not the way to go, and thus, will argue against it whenever it pops up.

It's not just Heroic raiders. I run normal mode, yet I certainly felt compelled to run all of the dailies and crap, until I burned out on it, in order to get as much valor and as much reputation so I could gear myself as well as possible to help my raid progress. Now I CBF because I don't think my gear is holding back my raid, and because I am sick and tired of dailies and LFR. The LFR scenery may change each patch, but the asshats don't.

Anyone who is obsessive about their performance will run as many lockouts as they qualify for in order to maximise their potential. It's fallacious to say this issue only impacts the upper tier of raiders. I think it impacts quite a lot of people.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:49 am

Koatanga wrote:Anyone who is obsessive about their performance will run as many lockouts as they qualify for in order to maximise their potential. It's fallacious to say this issue only impacts the upper tier of raiders. I think it impacts quite a lot of people.


I completely agree there. Honestly, it's probably going to affect Normal raiders moreso than Heroic raiders, as the LFR/Flex gear is closer to Normal gear, and thus less of a downgrade. Also, Normal mode raiders won't have the instance cleared in the first week or two-three, so there are a lot of items they cannot get on Normal until later, and thus Flex will be the best option there. Heroic raiders are likely to clear the instance on normal pretty quickly, and thus have a lot more access to normal (and later heroic) mode gear.

I do agree it's a problem.

I just don't agree with most of the solutions presented here, due to their impact on the more casual players. Anyone here who is saying that LFR/Flex raiders should run instance A at day X and instance B at day Y have no idea what the actual audience for LFR and Flex is.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:16 am

Thels wrote:I just don't agree with most of the solutions presented here, due to their impact on the more casual players. Anyone here who is saying that LFR/Flex raiders should run instance A at day X and instance B at day Y have no idea what the actual audience for LFR and Flex is.

I'm not saying anything of the kind - that's a specific scenario you made up that for the myriad reasons I have presented I do not believe will be common or happen regularly. The reality is that grown people can manage a schedule and take responsibility for when they have something in their life that conflicts with a game schedule.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:48 am

Koatanga wrote:manage a schedule


The whole idea about Flex and LFR is that you shouldn't have to.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:20 am

The whole idea about Flex and LFR is that you shouldn't have to.


That's skewing things a bit. The idea behind promoting casual raiding is that there's content for you even if you don't have the ability to schedule, which isn't the same as saying that you shouldn't have to. Even Flex rewards it, and is meant to promote it.

That said, I merely point out that taking the nerf bat to LFR/Flex in order to make heroic raiders feel better


Just as a reminder: If your concept of anything in this discussion includes "making Heroic raiders feel better", you should probably step back and read more clearly.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:59 am

Ok, ok, I stand corrected. But you're the one that has brought up heroic raiders into the mix, by saying how their raid leaders asks them to have two equally viable toons at all time -- that is more of a guild management problem than something to do with the number of raids available -- or how heroic raiders don't feel flex/lfr gear is low enough in ilvl, thus making it more desirable (which I think is a very stupid assessment).

Not saying normal raiders are not affected and will be tempted to do LFR, Flex and Normal, but it's heroic raiders, here and on the official forums the one making the most noise -- hence the whole making them feel better snark.

But I am someone that did all the dailies to the point I almost quit the game, and lost several guildies for that very same reason.

I'd do LFR alongside Normal in T14 and T15, until I got everything I needed out of them.

However, given the chance between LFR and Flex, I will do Flex and completely ignore LFR. It is just not worth it. Maybe if I have some extra time, I will try to do an LFR plus the Flex.

Personally? I'd prefer a lockout system, but that also affects a lot of people more than it benefits.

Which is why I think Theck's solution might be the best.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:28 pm

Thels wrote:
Koatanga wrote:manage a schedule


The whole idea about Flex and LFR is that you shouldn't have to.

I work Monday through Friday from 8 am to 5 pm. My daughter plays netball on Saturday mornings. She has swim training Tuesday through Thursday. She has Netball practice on Wednesday afternoon.

I fail to see how Flex or LFR magically make my schedule all go away so that I can play WoW whenever I feel like it. In stead, I manage my gaming schedule around my life schedule. I know what free time I will have, and if I elect to, I use that free time to play WoW.

Take Wednesday - it's really busy for me. I work, pick up kid after netball, take her to swimming, fix dinner, get her from swimming, then we all eat, then I go raid. Sometimes I'm a few minutes late to raid because of it. My team understands, because we're a Life > Game kind of group.

But being a rational human being, I am able to manage that schedule, and I can see slots in my schedule into which I can fit a Flex raid, or plan to run LFR.

There are times when things come up. A parent-teacher meeting on a Wednesday or Thursday night. Business trips. Holidays. I understand I will be "deprived" of my norm-mode loot chances because I will miss my normal-mode raid nights. That's OK. I accept that as a consequence to my having a life.

Is it really so terrible that I expect others to have at least a vague idea what is going on in their life, such that if they want to run Flex or LFR they have at least a vague idea when they can fit it into their lives? And if they can't reliably fit it in on a given night, that they maybe not commit to a Flex raid for that night?

We're not talking about homeless/jobless who beg for quarters so they can go to an internet cafe to play for whatever length of time they can afford, but even those people would eventually figure out what the prime hours for begging are, such that they could schedule their game time for when they are not begging. Life has a remarkable tendency to settle into routines and patterns regardless of how chaotic it begins.

The great thing about Flex is it's going to go on whether they show or not. So if they are a 2-weeks-on, 2-weeks-off type of schedule, they can participate when they can and not participate when they can't, and the raid isn't let down by their absence. But still, that's a case where a person knows their schedule.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:25 pm

Ok, ok, I stand corrected. But you're the one that has brought up heroic raiders into the mix, by saying how their raid leaders asks them to have two equally viable toons at all time


Wat.

Like seriously, wat?

How the ..... flip? I can't even imagine how you managed to make up something like that.

Not saying normal raiders are not affected and will be tempted to do LFR, Flex and Normal, but it's heroic raiders, here and on the official forums the one making the most noise -- hence the whole making them feel better snark


You know, explaining it doesn't really make you sound better, it just makes you sound more bitter and unable to actually engage in a discussion. Especially if you're managing to read entirely different things altogether.

However, given the chance between LFR and Flex, I will do Flex and completely ignore LFR. It is just not worth it. Maybe if I have some extra time, I will try to do an LFR plus the Flex.

Personally? I'd prefer a lockout system, but that also affects a lot of people more than it benefits.


What did I say about this? Like 3 posts ago.

Also, do you think your game experience is enriched by running LFR with that extra time, or would it be better enriched by having "something that doesn't involve yet another mode of the same raid" actually be worth doing?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:12 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Personally? I'd prefer a lockout system, but that also affects a lot of people more than it benefits.

That depends entirely on one's viewpoint. I have already discussed that in a lockout situation everyone gets the same number of loot chances they get now, so it doesn't negatively affect anyone while benefiting many norm and heroic raiders for reasons also already discussed.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:52 pm

Darielle wrote:Also, do you think your game experience is enriched by running LFR with that extra time, or would it be better enriched by having "something that doesn't involve yet another mode of the same raid" actually be worth doing?


I said if I have the extra time and if I'm willing to do it in the first place. Which is most likely not the case. I will most likely choose NOT to do LFR at all -- and given its gonna open at a lower pace than LFR, I hope I won't even need it at all to begin with.

That is the difference between me and others. I am choosing NOT to do LFR, and do something else with my time. Shocking how that works.

Also, you were the one that brought guilds/raids that asks people to have two alts ready to go at all times and cited it as a reason why having LFR and Flex is a bad idea since people will be drawn to do them all for the sweet epic loots.

Not sure how pointing out who is the people that complain about LFR/Flex makes me unable to engage in discussion though. The reason why I am actually unable to engage in discussion is because Theck succinctly made pretty much all the points that needed to be made about this. Furthermore, Theck himself said that his guild is not gonna do LFR and do Flex only.

And lastly, Theck did mention why either LFR ilvl nerfbat and lockouts affect negatively the population -- which is something blizz also considered in the first place and why we're going into 5.4 with the current setup.

The system is not perfect, but they're trying to affect the least amount of people. Or do you honestly believe that heroic raiders outnumber the people that do LFR?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:57 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Personally? I'd prefer a lockout system, but that also affects a lot of people more than it benefits.

That depends entirely on one's viewpoint. I have already discussed that in a lockout situation everyone gets the same number of loot chances they get now, so it doesn't negatively affect anyone while benefiting many norm and heroic raiders for reasons also already discussed.


In a perfect world, I'd say the lockout is the best solution.

But the problem lies in the nature of LFR in the first place. People will try to run all LFRs on the day of the reset. If you later on have a chance to do Flex, now you're stuck without gear. If you schedule to do Flex first, now you have the problem on running LFR towards the end of the reset, which is when the worst LFR groups happen. Heavens forbid you try to run LFR the night prior to the reset.

If I am locked out of LFR, I'd not be unhappy, but plenty of people would, more than those that would not or don't care.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:55 pm

I said if I have the extra time and if I'm willing to do it in the first place. Which is most likely not the case. I will most likely choose NOT to do LFR at all -- and given its gonna open at a lower pace than LFR, I hope I won't even need it at all to begin with.

That is the difference between me and others. I am choosing NOT to do LFR, and do something else with my time. Shocking how that works.


You're missing the point a bit.

Even if you have the time and you're willing to do it, would it NOT be better for both you and the game if the thing you wanted to do with that extra time was NOT a watered-down-version-of-the-exact-same-raid?

Also, you were the one that brought guilds/raids that asks people to have two alts ready to go at all times and cited it as a reason why having LFR and Flex is a bad idea since people will be drawn to do them all for the sweet epic loots.


Where?

If you read something like viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33506&start=451 as "This is a reason why having LFR and Flex is a bad idea", you really really really were not paying attention to the conversation at all.

Not sure how pointing out who is the people that complain about LFR/Flex makes me unable to engage in discussion though. The reason why I am actually unable to engage in discussion is because Theck succinctly made pretty much all the points that needed to be made about this.


Not only has Theck not really made "all the points" (some of them are even contradictory to each other within his own blog post, btw), the reason you're unable to engage in the discussion as a result of who you perceive as "complaining about LFR/Flex" is that you STILL seem to be reimagining things you read 2-3 years ago in what they post simply because of who you categorise them as.

The system is not perfect, but they're trying to affect the least amount of people. Or do you honestly believe that heroic raiders outnumber the people that do LFR?


The same reason that trying to lump "Heroic Raiders" and "people who complain about LFR/Flex" don't actually match with each other is the same reason that "people that do LFR" and "people who would be negatively affected by X" don't lump together.

Do you even have numbers for "people that do LFR" that can actually filter out Heroic raiders or alts? I doubt it.

But the problem lies in the nature of LFR in the first place. People will try to run all LFRs on the day of the reset. If you later on have a chance to do Flex, now you're stuck without gear. If you schedule to do Flex first, now you have the problem on running LFR towards the end of the reset, which is when the worst LFR groups happen. Heavens forbid you try to run LFR the night prior to the reset.


If your concern about this is "People will try to run all LFRs on the day of the reset because Mondays suck, you're fundamentally ignoring that Blizzard has zero problem gutting LFR entirely for the perception of "difficulty" and have mechanics in place specifically to ensure that LFR Will Remain Suitably Easy.

LFR sure as hell does not need people who don't want to be there to carry it. If people who don't want to be there aren't there, and that means the people who don't die to Eyebeam can't carry the raid, Blizzard will simply nerf the boss (and probably the Eyebeam too)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:13 am

Koatanga wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Personally? I'd prefer a lockout system, but that also affects a lot of people more than it benefits.

That depends entirely on one's viewpoint. I have already discussed that in a lockout situation everyone gets the same number of loot chances they get now, so it doesn't negatively affect anyone while benefiting many norm and heroic raiders for reasons also already discussed.

So your ideal solution is to not implement flex at all (since that would also be everyone have the same amount of loot chances as they ahve today)?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:29 am

Just to try to frame it
Approx 385855 have killed Jinrok on normal vs 153130 in heroic. I'd assume the number quickly goes up for LFR but Guildox does not keep track of the number of kills in LFR.

Also, do you mind posting a complete rebuttal to Theck's post here? I'd like to read it.

That said, if there's a solution for all of this, I still believe the best solution is his. That solution is something I support since it doesnt seem to affect anyone negatively.

Also, I find it funny that you label me as being subjective whenever I say "affects people negatively" when your problem of having too many options (if boring ones) is also highly subjective.

If you're calling me subjective and biased, at least admit you are also being subjective and biased.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:51 pm

Nooska wrote:So your ideal solution is to not implement flex at all (since that would also be everyone have the same amount of loot chances as they ahve today)?

Quite the contrary. I welcome Flex as an alternative to dealing with the mouth-breathers and trolls in LFR. I can't wait to never set foot in an LFR raid ever again. I'll cap my valor and get my welfare epics without some know-it-all DPS (who happens to be dead from standing in fire) telling me where to tank the boss. Freaking nirvana as far as I am concerned.

If anything, I would take out LFR so people can't hide behind anonymity to be assholes to other people. Re-introduce the concepts of personal responsibility and reputation. It used to be if you were an asshole to everyone, you didn't get picked up for any groups (or you were the guild leader of the big raiding guild). Nobody cares how they behave anymore because there are no consequences to it. LFR and LFG are *terrible* for the social aspect of the game.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:13 pm

Klaudandus wrote:But the problem lies in the nature of LFR in the first place. People will try to run all LFRs on the day of the reset. If you later on have a chance to do Flex, now you're stuck without gear. If you schedule to do Flex first, now you have the problem on running LFR towards the end of the reset, which is when the worst LFR groups happen. Heavens forbid you try to run LFR the night prior to the reset.


We've been through this already, but here it is in a nutshell (yes, it's a large nut):

People will want to run *something* on the first day of reset, and if Flex pays better, they'll run Flex first, not LFR. I don't buy the assumption that people will continue to run LFR on that day like automatons when better quality of gear and a better raiding environment exists in Flex.

If you schedule Flex first, did you run it by yourself? Because if not then there will be other people running LFR later in the week, so the talent pool won't be quite so shallow as it is now. You'll probably find lots of people making up Flex and LFR on weekends. Most raiders going for progression will have a norm/HC raid scheduled on the first night after reset, so they won't be doing Flex or LFR then anyway.

Virtually merged servers will be introduced "shortly after launch", increasing the opportunity for Flex raiding.

Guilds will pick up raiders for Flex raiding. Some guilds will use Flex as an audition/recruiting tool, so they will invite public in beyond the minimum required to run.

If you do run LFR early and get locked out of those bosses before you run Flex, then you're not stuck without gear. You rolled for gear when you killed those bosses in LFR, and presumably got loot from them. That was your one shot in that week, just like you have one shot now.

And lastly, the alternative to the burnout issue is to nerf the LFR gear until no HC raiders (or other people) want it, and the alternative to people gearing up too quickly is to cut the drop chance of loot by a full third, to account for them getting half their slots filled in Flex before they are done filling them with LFR gear (if they get gear from both).

Since I don't plan to darken LFR's doorway any time after 5.4 drops, I guess I am OK with nerfing LFR ilvl to the ground, but a lot of people hate that idea. However, also because I don't plan to run LFR, nerfing the drop frequency of Flex to extend the effective life of LFR would piss me off.

Therefore the solution I think is best is the single-lockout.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:21 pm

Koatanga wrote:Therefore the solution I think is best is the single-lockout.


In a sense, I agree with you. I dont know if you missed the part where I mention my upfront solution is the lockout system, if that cannot be done, then Theck's solution -- all I did was try to play devils advocate on why that might not fly.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:07 pm

Koatanga wrote:People will want to run *something* on the first day of reset, and if Flex pays better, they'll run Flex first, not LFR.


Incorrect. People for whom Flex is intended will run Flex when their friends to run Flex with happen to be online.

EDIT: Or at least a decent amount will. Sure, some guilds will plan Flex on Wed and Thu (EU) or Tue and Wed (US), other guilds will check what dates work best for their group, or run Flex whenever there are 12 or so people online at the same time. There will also be a bunch of guilds that run Flex on whichever evening it won't infringe with their regular raid schedule, and bring both their raiders and the other casuals in the guild. There are tons of reasons to come up with why people will not be running Flex on the first day after reset.

Flex means Flexibility towards the player, not as a player requirement.

Klaudandus wrote:then Theck's solution


It wasn't Theck's solution. :P
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:34 pm

My bad~!
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:52 pm

Thels wrote:
Koatanga wrote:People will want to run *something* on the first day of reset, and if Flex pays better, they'll run Flex first, not LFR.


Incorrect. People for whom Flex is intended will run Flex when their friends to run Flex with happen to be online.

EDIT: Or at least a decent amount will. Sure, some guilds will plan Flex on Wed and Thu (EU) or Tue and Wed (US), other guilds will check what dates work best for their group, or run Flex whenever there are 12 or so people online at the same time. There will also be a bunch of guilds that run Flex on whichever evening it won't infringe with their regular raid schedule, and bring both their raiders and the other casuals in the guild. There are tons of reasons to come up with why people will not be running Flex on the first day after reset.

Flex means Flexibility towards the player, not as a player requirement.

Are you taking about the people in guilds who have stable Flex runs to do with their guilds, so they know when it will be and probably how many bosses they can take down and could plan to run LFR around that? Or are you talking about the Bohemians for whom anything scheduled is a major downer and they must live life as the wind blows?

Because it seems like whatever I say, you flop to the opposite group in order to argue the point, which looks very much like the logical fallacy of definition - for any argument there is a sufficiently narrow range of definition for which it isn't true.

It seems to me that if a bunch of random people who don't have guild runs to go on want to run LFR on the same day (right after reset), they just might get together and run Flex if it's more profitable for them to do so.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:57 pm

Just to try to frame it
Approx 385855 have killed Jinrok on normal vs 153130 in heroic. I'd assume the number quickly goes up for LFR but Guildox does not keep track of the number of kills in LFR.


Not sure how you think that frames it. Without a number for kills in LFR, and whatever you can justify to remove from that based on:
- Normal mode and Heroic mode raiders also killing LFR
- Alts of said raiders doing LFR just because
etc., there isn't much to frame.

Also, I find it funny that you label me as being subjective whenever I say "affects people negatively" when your problem of having too many options (if boring ones) is also highly subjective.

If you're calling me subjective and biased, at least admit you are also being subjective and biased.


Dude, can you please at least pretend to read for once?
There's nothing subjective about you saying that it affects people negatively. At long as you can make the case that it affects at least 1 person negatively, you can make the case that affecting people negatively is true.
When you start getting into affecting more people negatively than positively, you need to make clear distinctions that this isn't just because you've decided to lump "All people who've done LFR" into one crowd and pretended that this affects all of them. Because the more we talk about this, the more niche it gets about who is actually negatively affected, especially since the entire point of ANY change is to offset that*.

By contrast, if you see me marginalising a group ("make casuals feel better"), or claiming that every Heroic raider will like totally quit if Y doesn't happen (hint: I haven't done that), then you can go ahead and call me out on doing the same thing. Feel free to.

*In other words, if you're going to enforce a lockout, it would be a great thing to add pooling up to 2 lockouts to mitigate the effects of missing out on a particular week to go alongside it. If you're going to lower ilvl of LFR loot, it should be pretty obvious that Normal, Flex and Heroic would also come down in the same fashion, AND that you would ensure that Valor loot (if it even still exists in the future) is not going to be quite so available or jump to a ridiculous ilvl. If you're going to look at baking in the rolls, it should be apparent that you're looking at a system where loot tables and drop rates are going to be adjusted in concert.

Out of curiosity, do you actually feel that the perception of "caving in to Heroic Raiders" won't also apply to "extra loot", and that people won't complain that Normal/Heroic Raiders are like totally getting more loot that they "didn't earn", or that people won't then blame their own stupidity in losing 12 people to Disintegration Beam in LFR on "WAY TO GO BLIZZ"??

Incorrect. People for whom Flex is intended will run Flex when their friends to run Flex with happen to be online.

EDIT: Or at least a decent amount will. Sure, some guilds will plan Flex on Wed and Thu (EU) or Tue and Wed (US), other guilds will check what dates work best for their group, or run Flex whenever there are 12 or so people online at the same time. There will also be a bunch of guilds that run Flex on whichever evening it won't infringe with their regular raid schedule, and bring both their raiders and the other casuals in the guild. There are tons of reasons to come up with why people will not be running Flex on the first day after reset.

Flex means Flexibility towards the player, not as a player requirement.


They seem to be talking more about the people that run LFR/Flex with strangers, on the basis that runs will be more successful earlier in the week, from what I can see. A guild run doesn't factor into that equation.

Also, do you mind posting a complete rebuttal to Theck's post here? I'd like to read it.


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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:54 pm

I never said it fully frames it, but it gives a quick sample on the number of guilds that have completed heroic jinrok vs normal jinrok -- you can easily extrapolate that the easier the content, the more people that will complete it successfully.

Believe it or not, reading all the way back to the first page, I agree with you about the possibility of the current design leading to burnout.

The only difference is that you are intent on blaming the system for that possibility rather than looking in the mirror and blaming yourself instead.

The easiest solution has always been the one that you dismiss the most, the fact that the game, and anything you do in it, is a choice.

Going further down the road, I actually think the only viable solution of the ones you've mentioned (lockout, nerf to ilvl, redesign to lfr loot) is the lockout, and one I actually support, although somewhat begrudgingly.

Reason why I prefer Theck/Thels solution is because I don't care what heroic raiders do as long as it doesn't affect me negatively and seems to be a compromise between LFR raiders and heroic raiders.
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