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LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:07 pm

Straight from Theck

...

Further, there’s a social problem with increasing the ilvl gap even further. Nobody likes to feel like a second-class citizen. But as the ilvl gap between LFR and Normal increases, that’s exactly what LFR players feel increasingly like.


You ARE aware, if you're attempting to quote Theck on this particular tidbit, that the gap between LFR and Normal (and for that matter Flex and Normal) would and will stay exactly the same no matter which goes where, right? And that it takes bending quite a few straws to interpret T14/T15's LFR ilvl to "sympathy" so much as "byproduct of half-offset in T14 between MSV and HoF" (arguing that T14 had a 20ilvl gap is a little bit silly when 483-->496)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Teranoid » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:04 pm

Of course there's a social problem with it because we're in the entitlement era where everyone thinks they should have everything regardless of the time invested which is what has caused this giant mess to begin with.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:15 pm

Teranoid wrote:Of course there's a social problem with it because we're in the entitlement era where everyone thinks they should have everything regardless of the time invested which is what has caused this giant mess to begin with.


I don't think I'm arguing in favor of that, at least not directly. That said, I merely point out that taking the nerf bat to LFR/Flex in order to make heroic raiders feel better is not the way to go, and thus, will argue against it whenever it pops up.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:42 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Teranoid wrote:Of course there's a social problem with it because we're in the entitlement era where everyone thinks they should have everything regardless of the time invested which is what has caused this giant mess to begin with.


I don't think I'm arguing in favor of that, at least not directly. That said, I merely point out that taking the nerf bat to LFR/Flex in order to make heroic raiders feel better is not the way to go, and thus, will argue against it whenever it pops up.

It's not just Heroic raiders. I run normal mode, yet I certainly felt compelled to run all of the dailies and crap, until I burned out on it, in order to get as much valor and as much reputation so I could gear myself as well as possible to help my raid progress. Now I CBF because I don't think my gear is holding back my raid, and because I am sick and tired of dailies and LFR. The LFR scenery may change each patch, but the asshats don't.

Anyone who is obsessive about their performance will run as many lockouts as they qualify for in order to maximise their potential. It's fallacious to say this issue only impacts the upper tier of raiders. I think it impacts quite a lot of people.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:49 am

Koatanga wrote:Anyone who is obsessive about their performance will run as many lockouts as they qualify for in order to maximise their potential. It's fallacious to say this issue only impacts the upper tier of raiders. I think it impacts quite a lot of people.


I completely agree there. Honestly, it's probably going to affect Normal raiders moreso than Heroic raiders, as the LFR/Flex gear is closer to Normal gear, and thus less of a downgrade. Also, Normal mode raiders won't have the instance cleared in the first week or two-three, so there are a lot of items they cannot get on Normal until later, and thus Flex will be the best option there. Heroic raiders are likely to clear the instance on normal pretty quickly, and thus have a lot more access to normal (and later heroic) mode gear.

I do agree it's a problem.

I just don't agree with most of the solutions presented here, due to their impact on the more casual players. Anyone here who is saying that LFR/Flex raiders should run instance A at day X and instance B at day Y have no idea what the actual audience for LFR and Flex is.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:16 am

Thels wrote:I just don't agree with most of the solutions presented here, due to their impact on the more casual players. Anyone here who is saying that LFR/Flex raiders should run instance A at day X and instance B at day Y have no idea what the actual audience for LFR and Flex is.

I'm not saying anything of the kind - that's a specific scenario you made up that for the myriad reasons I have presented I do not believe will be common or happen regularly. The reality is that grown people can manage a schedule and take responsibility for when they have something in their life that conflicts with a game schedule.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:48 am

Koatanga wrote:manage a schedule


The whole idea about Flex and LFR is that you shouldn't have to.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:20 am

The whole idea about Flex and LFR is that you shouldn't have to.


That's skewing things a bit. The idea behind promoting casual raiding is that there's content for you even if you don't have the ability to schedule, which isn't the same as saying that you shouldn't have to. Even Flex rewards it, and is meant to promote it.

That said, I merely point out that taking the nerf bat to LFR/Flex in order to make heroic raiders feel better


Just as a reminder: If your concept of anything in this discussion includes "making Heroic raiders feel better", you should probably step back and read more clearly.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:59 am

Ok, ok, I stand corrected. But you're the one that has brought up heroic raiders into the mix, by saying how their raid leaders asks them to have two equally viable toons at all time -- that is more of a guild management problem than something to do with the number of raids available -- or how heroic raiders don't feel flex/lfr gear is low enough in ilvl, thus making it more desirable (which I think is a very stupid assessment).

Not saying normal raiders are not affected and will be tempted to do LFR, Flex and Normal, but it's heroic raiders, here and on the official forums the one making the most noise -- hence the whole making them feel better snark.

But I am someone that did all the dailies to the point I almost quit the game, and lost several guildies for that very same reason.

I'd do LFR alongside Normal in T14 and T15, until I got everything I needed out of them.

However, given the chance between LFR and Flex, I will do Flex and completely ignore LFR. It is just not worth it. Maybe if I have some extra time, I will try to do an LFR plus the Flex.

Personally? I'd prefer a lockout system, but that also affects a lot of people more than it benefits.

Which is why I think Theck's solution might be the best.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:28 pm

Thels wrote:
Koatanga wrote:manage a schedule


The whole idea about Flex and LFR is that you shouldn't have to.

I work Monday through Friday from 8 am to 5 pm. My daughter plays netball on Saturday mornings. She has swim training Tuesday through Thursday. She has Netball practice on Wednesday afternoon.

I fail to see how Flex or LFR magically make my schedule all go away so that I can play WoW whenever I feel like it. In stead, I manage my gaming schedule around my life schedule. I know what free time I will have, and if I elect to, I use that free time to play WoW.

Take Wednesday - it's really busy for me. I work, pick up kid after netball, take her to swimming, fix dinner, get her from swimming, then we all eat, then I go raid. Sometimes I'm a few minutes late to raid because of it. My team understands, because we're a Life > Game kind of group.

But being a rational human being, I am able to manage that schedule, and I can see slots in my schedule into which I can fit a Flex raid, or plan to run LFR.

There are times when things come up. A parent-teacher meeting on a Wednesday or Thursday night. Business trips. Holidays. I understand I will be "deprived" of my norm-mode loot chances because I will miss my normal-mode raid nights. That's OK. I accept that as a consequence to my having a life.

Is it really so terrible that I expect others to have at least a vague idea what is going on in their life, such that if they want to run Flex or LFR they have at least a vague idea when they can fit it into their lives? And if they can't reliably fit it in on a given night, that they maybe not commit to a Flex raid for that night?

We're not talking about homeless/jobless who beg for quarters so they can go to an internet cafe to play for whatever length of time they can afford, but even those people would eventually figure out what the prime hours for begging are, such that they could schedule their game time for when they are not begging. Life has a remarkable tendency to settle into routines and patterns regardless of how chaotic it begins.

The great thing about Flex is it's going to go on whether they show or not. So if they are a 2-weeks-on, 2-weeks-off type of schedule, they can participate when they can and not participate when they can't, and the raid isn't let down by their absence. But still, that's a case where a person knows their schedule.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:25 pm

Ok, ok, I stand corrected. But you're the one that has brought up heroic raiders into the mix, by saying how their raid leaders asks them to have two equally viable toons at all time


Wat.

Like seriously, wat?

How the ..... flip? I can't even imagine how you managed to make up something like that.

Not saying normal raiders are not affected and will be tempted to do LFR, Flex and Normal, but it's heroic raiders, here and on the official forums the one making the most noise -- hence the whole making them feel better snark


You know, explaining it doesn't really make you sound better, it just makes you sound more bitter and unable to actually engage in a discussion. Especially if you're managing to read entirely different things altogether.

However, given the chance between LFR and Flex, I will do Flex and completely ignore LFR. It is just not worth it. Maybe if I have some extra time, I will try to do an LFR plus the Flex.

Personally? I'd prefer a lockout system, but that also affects a lot of people more than it benefits.


What did I say about this? Like 3 posts ago.

Also, do you think your game experience is enriched by running LFR with that extra time, or would it be better enriched by having "something that doesn't involve yet another mode of the same raid" actually be worth doing?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:12 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Personally? I'd prefer a lockout system, but that also affects a lot of people more than it benefits.

That depends entirely on one's viewpoint. I have already discussed that in a lockout situation everyone gets the same number of loot chances they get now, so it doesn't negatively affect anyone while benefiting many norm and heroic raiders for reasons also already discussed.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:52 pm

Darielle wrote:Also, do you think your game experience is enriched by running LFR with that extra time, or would it be better enriched by having "something that doesn't involve yet another mode of the same raid" actually be worth doing?


I said if I have the extra time and if I'm willing to do it in the first place. Which is most likely not the case. I will most likely choose NOT to do LFR at all -- and given its gonna open at a lower pace than LFR, I hope I won't even need it at all to begin with.

That is the difference between me and others. I am choosing NOT to do LFR, and do something else with my time. Shocking how that works.

Also, you were the one that brought guilds/raids that asks people to have two alts ready to go at all times and cited it as a reason why having LFR and Flex is a bad idea since people will be drawn to do them all for the sweet epic loots.

Not sure how pointing out who is the people that complain about LFR/Flex makes me unable to engage in discussion though. The reason why I am actually unable to engage in discussion is because Theck succinctly made pretty much all the points that needed to be made about this. Furthermore, Theck himself said that his guild is not gonna do LFR and do Flex only.

And lastly, Theck did mention why either LFR ilvl nerfbat and lockouts affect negatively the population -- which is something blizz also considered in the first place and why we're going into 5.4 with the current setup.

The system is not perfect, but they're trying to affect the least amount of people. Or do you honestly believe that heroic raiders outnumber the people that do LFR?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:57 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Personally? I'd prefer a lockout system, but that also affects a lot of people more than it benefits.

That depends entirely on one's viewpoint. I have already discussed that in a lockout situation everyone gets the same number of loot chances they get now, so it doesn't negatively affect anyone while benefiting many norm and heroic raiders for reasons also already discussed.


In a perfect world, I'd say the lockout is the best solution.

But the problem lies in the nature of LFR in the first place. People will try to run all LFRs on the day of the reset. If you later on have a chance to do Flex, now you're stuck without gear. If you schedule to do Flex first, now you have the problem on running LFR towards the end of the reset, which is when the worst LFR groups happen. Heavens forbid you try to run LFR the night prior to the reset.

If I am locked out of LFR, I'd not be unhappy, but plenty of people would, more than those that would not or don't care.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:55 pm

I said if I have the extra time and if I'm willing to do it in the first place. Which is most likely not the case. I will most likely choose NOT to do LFR at all -- and given its gonna open at a lower pace than LFR, I hope I won't even need it at all to begin with.

That is the difference between me and others. I am choosing NOT to do LFR, and do something else with my time. Shocking how that works.


You're missing the point a bit.

Even if you have the time and you're willing to do it, would it NOT be better for both you and the game if the thing you wanted to do with that extra time was NOT a watered-down-version-of-the-exact-same-raid?

Also, you were the one that brought guilds/raids that asks people to have two alts ready to go at all times and cited it as a reason why having LFR and Flex is a bad idea since people will be drawn to do them all for the sweet epic loots.


Where?

If you read something like viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33506&start=451 as "This is a reason why having LFR and Flex is a bad idea", you really really really were not paying attention to the conversation at all.

Not sure how pointing out who is the people that complain about LFR/Flex makes me unable to engage in discussion though. The reason why I am actually unable to engage in discussion is because Theck succinctly made pretty much all the points that needed to be made about this.


Not only has Theck not really made "all the points" (some of them are even contradictory to each other within his own blog post, btw), the reason you're unable to engage in the discussion as a result of who you perceive as "complaining about LFR/Flex" is that you STILL seem to be reimagining things you read 2-3 years ago in what they post simply because of who you categorise them as.

The system is not perfect, but they're trying to affect the least amount of people. Or do you honestly believe that heroic raiders outnumber the people that do LFR?


The same reason that trying to lump "Heroic Raiders" and "people who complain about LFR/Flex" don't actually match with each other is the same reason that "people that do LFR" and "people who would be negatively affected by X" don't lump together.

Do you even have numbers for "people that do LFR" that can actually filter out Heroic raiders or alts? I doubt it.

But the problem lies in the nature of LFR in the first place. People will try to run all LFRs on the day of the reset. If you later on have a chance to do Flex, now you're stuck without gear. If you schedule to do Flex first, now you have the problem on running LFR towards the end of the reset, which is when the worst LFR groups happen. Heavens forbid you try to run LFR the night prior to the reset.


If your concern about this is "People will try to run all LFRs on the day of the reset because Mondays suck, you're fundamentally ignoring that Blizzard has zero problem gutting LFR entirely for the perception of "difficulty" and have mechanics in place specifically to ensure that LFR Will Remain Suitably Easy.

LFR sure as hell does not need people who don't want to be there to carry it. If people who don't want to be there aren't there, and that means the people who don't die to Eyebeam can't carry the raid, Blizzard will simply nerf the boss (and probably the Eyebeam too)
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