LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:53 am

Darielle wrote:
Thels did NOT say that the person that wasn't able to get home and run the flex raid should get flex loot.
He said that under a shared lockout, he would get NO loot that week, because he wouldn't have run LFR earlier (or rather, he shouldn't as that would be gimping himself).


There are a few levels of contradiction here.

For one, running LFR earlier in the week isn't "gimping" anyone. If anything, going to LFR and getting a few items could mean that the Flex raid goes more smoothly as a result of upgrades and/or familiarity.

Secondly, when pointed out earlier that Flex's tuning for its intended audience is that it should be easy, and within a few wipes, Thels argued otherwise. The result of THAT, if he believes so, means that said casual Flex raider isn't expected to start 1/14 Flex and go 14/14 within one night, so what he's doing earlier in the week is running the later wings of Flex - he/she has no interest in LFR anyway. It's not a "Do I do LFR choice" at all the way it's being portrayed.

And finally, whether you miss out on Flex loot or not from missing a scheduled run is irrelevant to whether you have an extra shot at loot from LFR. If you miss the Flex run, you miss the Flex run regardless. The only consequence that LFR can add to it is based on whether you can or cannot consistently be expected to get double loot shots every week. If LFR is being presented as an either/or choice in case of missed Flex runs, a lockout is completely irrelevant until you've missed your Flex run.


I completely agree with the red highlighted, however, saying that running LFR earlier isn't gimping this hypothetical raider, is untrue if there was a shared loot lockout.
With no shared loot lockout (like currently), then, absolutely correct, he would noe bet getting loot because he ran nothing - that is absolutely fair (noone is arguing for "welfare epics" as far as I've seen, so we are all agreed on that point).

You also have a point in regards to progression in Flex vs running LFR later wings, and I totally agree with that (within reason of course - the first weeek in flex I would say "no LFR" as you don't know how far you get, and later weeks I would say no LFR that could reasonably be taken on in flex - again under a shared loot lockout.

However, the "not running all LFR" argument goes for the heroic raider after that one or two pieces too, so I think we can agree that running a few LFR segments per week in addition to ones "progression" raiding (be that flex, normal or heroic) is NOT a problem.

Koatanga wrote:
Nooska wrote:Thels did NOT say that the person that wasn't able to get home and run the flex raid should get flex loot.
He said that under a shared lockout, he would get NO loot that week, because he wouldn't have run LFR earlier (or rather, he shouldn't as that would be gimping himself).

He wouldn't get any loot because HE DIDN'T RUN ANYTHING. If you don't run anything, you don't get loot.

And it's ONE freaking week out of 40. If it was a regular occurrence, then he would look for a different Flex raid that he could run earlier in the week.


Who said it was 1 week out of 40? and who said there are 40 weeks in play here?
A flex raider may indeed be one with a tight schedule that may or may not miss the weekly flexraid quite a lot more often than 2.5% of the time - this is a complete strawman, and I'mc alling you on it.
Noone, and I repeat, noone has talked about the length of a tier or how often you may miss, its the possibility of not being able to go.
Going from 2 loot chances if you do go and there is no lockout to 0 chances if you can't make flex because of a shared lockout, meaning you don't go LFR because you would miss flex, thats being argued abot.

Regardless, I'm done arguing about why it is unreasonable, for further reasoning, I'll point at thecks blogpost, which has quite good reasoning on all the points, even when I don't necessarily agree on all the points and premises - the reasoning is sound.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:42 am

I'm saying 40 weeks because Dragon Soul came in with patch 4.3 on November 29, 2011,, and Pandaria was released on September 25, 2012. That's 43 weeks for the final tier of the last patch.

And it's once, or a handful of times, because if it's a regular thing then any player ought to be smart enough to latch onto earlier Flex runs, knowing he's probably not going to make the later one.

And again, you leave points unanswered:

How is this any different to deciding when to use fortune coins? We have 3 to use between LFR and normal mode now, and can manage them without issue. Even at that rate we have coins left over because we get all we can out of the content before the next patch is released.

Why is it imperative that this raider gear up immediately, such that missing a week would be such a setback? Or a handful of weeks? Or a bunch of weeks, but if he's dumb enough not to get onto a Flex he can make, why would we assume he could handle Flex mechanics? Perhaps LFR is where he belongs.

Does this groups of LFR raiders who have Monday overtime reflect a larger or smaller population than the normal and heroic raiders who will feel pressured to run all available loot lockouts to maximize their performance, either at the behest of their raid leader, or to fulfill their own sense of responsibility?

I honestly don't believe that LFR raiders on tight schedules are who the loot system should be designed around. I think there is a large number of players who will feel compelled to run all the available content to assure that they have the best gear they can get, maximise their valor points, and be as prepared as possible for their main tier of raiding, be it normal mode or flex. I think the consideration of their burnout leading to either cancelled subscriptions or not taking up the next expansion is of greater importance than catering to someone who doesn't even have time to play the game.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:37 am

Then: people cancel because "burnout from to much to do"
Future: people cancel because "don't have anything to do anymore, done for the week in two days, it's boring".

So, yeah, in before that.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:40 am

Its still a strawman, because noone goes into raiding looking at X weeks total - by that count it doesn't matter if heroic raiders (and all other diffculties ofc) get any gear in the final tier, as it isn't used for anything later.

Also, you are looking at flex from some - to me - pretty weird starting point;
" if it's a regular thing then any player ought to be smart enough to latch onto earlier Flex runs"
Flex is for teh "Friends and family" type guilds - you don't go shopping around that much (even though I have claimed, and will maintain untill proven wrong by the game, that there will be Flex raiding guilds - for whom normal is the "heroic" version)

And it is different than coins, because you don't lose access to your coins when you use them on a boss in one difficulty. It is also different because you can stockpile and use your coins on specific bosses (regardless of difficulty).
In fact, How is it similar to coins of forune (or mogu runes, or what any given tiers token is called)?

Also, again you are trying to be too concrete. The examples that have been listed do not pertain to any single person, they are examples of where issues arise.

I do challenge you to make a reasonable argument for why the solutions should specifically be found by punishing the "lowest tier" of raiders to solve a problem that is limited in scope and time, and pertains to the "highest tier" of raiders (which is numerically significantly smaller).
A reasonable argument that does not involve taking WoW in a direction, audience-wise, that the developers are clearly not interested in taking it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:19 am

People still arguing? Theck pretty much said all that needed to be said for the current situation.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Flex » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:28 am

Klaudandus wrote:People still arguing? Theck pretty much said all that needed to be said for the current situation.


For normal/Heroic remove the cancel button from the bonus roll window since I think it still has an X close button, if it doesn't add the X close button.

Shift the Dice up, add a Dice with a gold + sign overlayed in the top right quadrant. This will be the super bonus roll.

Same chance as the regular bonus roll for a same difficulty item. 10% for a Flex item. 20% for a LFR item. Only one of those outcomes is possible, so no chance of a triple loot bonus roll.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby cdan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:14 am

Klaudandus wrote:People still arguing? Theck pretty much said all that needed to be said for the current situation.


You have to admire the stamina though. Even if I cared I'd have given up the argument ages ago.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Teranoid » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:50 pm

Klaudandus wrote:People still arguing? Theck pretty much said all that needed to be said for the current situation.


It's funny as hell because none of them can shut up for 5 minutes to realize how futile this is and how stupid they all look.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:18 pm

The ones that amuse me the most are those that still want to change something even though theck explained why that is nigh feasible at this stage and seems to be corroborated by the initial blue post that started all of this, that they seem to know there is something that might cause some discomfort to some people but they're taking the lesser of two evils and try to affect the least amount of people.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:28 pm

Right, so discussion on this board is now limited only to things that are definitely going into the game. No speculation or "having ideas" is allowed unless they are things included in the patch notes.

I get it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:44 pm

I completely agree with the red highlighted, however, saying that running LFR earlier isn't gimping this hypothetical raider, is untrue if there was a shared loot lockout.
With no shared loot lockout (like currently), then, absolutely correct, he would noe bet getting loot because he ran nothing - that is absolutely fair (noone is arguing for "welfare epics" as far as I've seen, so we are all agreed on that point).


The only context it was said in is with a shared lockout.

Having already gotten gear for the week doesn't "gimp" people. It puts them in a better position for runs, ranging from potentially clearing more bosses thereby allowing for more loot or achievements to be gained in the same time, or even by simply spreading out loot better because for the X-13 boots you got earlier, the X boots can go to someone else, powering the group up better.

However, the "not running all LFR" argument goes for the heroic raider after that one or two pieces too, so I think we can agree that running a few LFR segments per week in addition to ones "progression" raiding (be that flex, normal or heroic) is NOT a problem.


You're adding something slightly different into that scenario.
If you're running LFR to make up for wings you haven't run, it's slightly different to running for X pieces. If your X pieces are off Paragons and Garrosh, awesome, 1 wing consolidation. If they're off Norushen and Garrosh, well there goes 2 wings. If they're off Norushen, Malkorok and Garrosh, not so much.

One is reduced by what you've run that week. One is reduced by what you've looted in any week.
And I'm pretty sure we're talking here because handwaving away as "NOT a problem, look people are doing it!" came into play.

Then: people cancel because "burnout from to much to do"
Future: people cancel because "don't have anything to do anymore, done for the week in two days, it's boring".

So, yeah, in before that.


There's one important distinction to be made here.

If people are running out of content entirely in 2 days, that's a problem. A problem caused by an unsustainable model of content. But boring isn't countered by simply adding content to do - if that additional content is boring, then it just exacerbates the boredom.

Which really should be the focus of development, when you get right down to it. What makes X fun? That's easy to answer for raiding, a lot harder to answer when you start getting down to dailies or LFR.

People still arguing? Theck pretty much said all that needed to be said for the current situation.


Meh, a lot of Theck's opinions are more implementation issues with relatively easy solutions as opposed to actual design problems.
Never mind of course that Theck having an opinion on something doesn't actually mean that it automatically garners more weight, or even that he's said EVERYTHING just because it got consolidated into a blog post.

And I seriously don't think anyone, anyone has been sitting here talking about how anything HAS to happen before 5.4. So the concept of "not feasible at this stage" is pretty damn irrelevant.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:16 am

Koatanga wrote:Right, so discussion on this board is now limited only to things that are definitely going into the game. No speculation or "having ideas" is allowed unless they are things included in the patch notes.

I get it.

That's not what I said.

But a lot of the arguments as of lately has devolved into "I'm shouting louder than you" and "you're not even listening"
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:23 am

Darielle wrote:Meh, a lot of Theck's opinions are more implementation issues with relatively easy solutions as opposed to actual design problems.

And I seriously don't think anyone, anyone has been sitting here talking about how anything HAS to happen before 5.4. So the concept of "not feasible at this stage" is pretty damn irrelevant.


You keep saying design problems, I still see it as a design choice, when it comes to LFR/Flex and not sharing a loot lockout, and their assigned ilvls.

Repeat with me, they're going with the lesser of two evils.

If you don't agree, I imagine that the best place for you to discuss this is not here -- where it's obvious the argument goes in circles -- it's on the wow forums, since it's the blues the ones you gotta convince.

That is, if you truly believe how evil it is for blizzard to have so many opportunities to get loot (although I scoff at that idea, seeing how I've gone all of T15 without getting gear from Nalak, even with bonus rolls... but I digress.)

Also, I said it before, I am not oblivious to the "problems", but your solutions seem to negatively affect more people than it benefits.

I believe the "free loot" idea of Theck might be the best solution BUT one needs to sell that idea to the blue ones to see if it can be implemented in the future.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:07 pm

You keep saying design problems, I still see it as a design choice, when it comes to LFR/Flex and not sharing a loot lockout, and their assigned ilvls.

Repeat with me, they're going with the lesser of two evils


You are aware that the lesser of two evils IS a design problem, right?

If you don't agree, I imagine that the best place for you to discuss this is not here -- where it's obvious the argument goes in circles -- it's on the wow forums, since it's the blues the ones you gotta convince.


There's no real "argument" that'd go in not-circles. Even directly tweeting with Ghostcrawler would likely go around in circles.

But a lot of the arguments as of lately has devolved into "I'm shouting louder than you" and "you're not even listening"


That latter one kind of comes up a lot - it basically needs people to stop viewing any kind of "argument" in a "Them vs. Us" capacity, and thereby associate whoever they view in one camp as somehow agreeing with everyone else they perceive to be "in the same camp".

Note that that doesn't apply just to this topic.

Instead, the "argument" should be looking at logical ends. For example, I can note that when you relate your ability to do T15 without getting gear from Nalak, you're fundamentally relating two entirely different things and using that to make a judgment on the nature of X+LFR+Flex (or even LFR + Flex).

I should also note that "seem to negatively affect more people than it helps" is a ridiculously subjective concept depending on exactly how narrow you go. It's basically a universal "I don't like it" card, because it can be claimed for anything without being backed up as to whether it would truly negatively affect more people than it helps.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:36 pm

Darielle wrote:I should also note that "seem to negatively affect more people than it helps" is a ridiculously subjective concept depending on exactly how narrow you go. It's basically a universal "I don't like it" card, because it can be claimed for anything without being backed up as to whether it would truly negatively affect more people than it helps.



Straight from Theck

Predictably, the first few solutions trotted out involve nerfing LFR and Flex loot ilvls so that they’re not attractive to heroic raiders. If the problem is that the gear is an upgrade for heroic raiders, perhaps the solution is to nerf it until it isn’t. I think the reason that this solution is the first to be suggested is tied to the fact that the argument has worked before.

In cataclysm, it was only 13 ilvls behind. And at the time, I wrote a blog post opining that the separation should probably be a little larger to further disincentivize LFR farming by organized raiders. In the first two tiers of MoP, the gap between LFR and normal-mode gear was increased to 20 ilvls (if you’re keeping score, I suggested 19 in that post). In T16, that gap is increasing even more (up to 28 ilvls) to accommodate Flex-mode gear, which will be 17 ilvls below normal-mode gear. So it’s clear that Blizzard has been sympathetic to the “increase the ilvl gap” argument.

However, I’m also not convinced that solution actually works all that well in practice. It’s fine when you’re just comparing raw stats, but the problem areas are traditionally unique effects from tier bonuses and trinkets. Neither of those are beholden the traditional rules of “higher ilvl = more stats = better.” In both T15 and T16, we see trinkets with unique and interesting effects that can be exploited for large DPS gains compared to higher-ilvl trinkets. And especially when it comes to tanks, set bonuses can be game-changing and hard to compare to a fixed stat increase.

Further, there’s a social problem with increasing the ilvl gap even further. Nobody likes to feel like a second-class citizen. But as the ilvl gap between LFR and Normal increases, that’s exactly what LFR players feel increasingly like. There’s no question that the rewards for heroic-mode need to be greater than normal, which needs to be greater than flex, and so on down the line. But remember that each ilvl is approximately 1% character power. An LFR player is already about 20% less effective than a normal-mode raider, and 33% less effective than a heroic-mode raider. Tuning open-world content gets much harder when that sort of performance gap exists. Content that’s challenging for the heroic raider is impossible for the LFR player, while content that challenges the LFR player becomes trivial and boring for the heroic raider. It adds another constraint on the problem of making compelling open-world content, which is something Blizzard has been struggling with all through Mists of Pandaria.

Nerfing LFR and Flex-mode gear also sends a very clear message to LFR and Flex raiders, whether that message is intended or not. It says “we value the opinion of these heroic raiders more than yours,” because the majority of players calling for LFR gear to be nerfed are outspoken heroic raiders. I’m sure Blizzard would never agree that this is the message they’re sending, and honestly don’t believe they think that way in the first place. But perception is what matters, and there’s no question that this is how such a change would be perceived. In essence, “GG, Blizzard caving again to the elitist heroic raiders that don’t want casuals to have nice things.”

So I really don’t think that nerfing the ilvl of LFR and Flex loot is a viable solution, nor do I think it’s any more likely than removing LFR entirely. I think the drop in ilvl to accommodate Flex raiding was probably a contentious compromise even within the halls of Blizzard HQ, seen not as ideal but as necessary to preserve the impression that there’s a significant skill divide between normal/heroic and LFR/Flex. I’d be very surprised to see LFR loot drop any farther behind.
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