LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:39 am

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:51 am

Winkle wrote:They did test the 3rd of 4 parts of the raid mind you, so perhaps its reasonable to assume a 530 ilvl by the time that segment releases.


I'd say more than reasonable. One common complaint was LFR drops being made irrelevant by SPA VP gear so people who aren't alt fiends should be at 522-530 for many gear slots even only doing LFR.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:35 pm

This is simply stupid.

This is the same as telling you you will be getting normal loot for running heroic, and that you should be happy about it because you already got normal loot (ignore for a second that normal and heroic share a lockout currently).


Well, no. If I had done Normal because of "being unsure about running Heroic", then it would have been similar, but even in that case, the running of the Heroic with friends is something that is actually adding value, and I've had a power spike with the Normal loot to run the Heroic even better with. If I don't get even more loot than I was expecting, I won't run with my guildies, or I haven't earned Heroic kills than I can still coin loot off?

Now if you're saying that it's the same as me refusing to run Heroic with my guildies as a person who's sitting out for any bosses, that might somewhat compare.

I think the other way around is more the problem. Say there's a Flex run scheduled on monday evening, but it's not 100% guaranteed if it'll go through or not. Do I run LFR during the weekends?

If I do, I shoot myself in the foot, because I might screw myself out of better gear during the Flex run.

If I don't, and then it turns out I don't have time to play on monday, I screwed myself out of possible LFR gear.


If you don't, and you don't have time to play on Monday, how were you planning to run a scheduled Flex run?

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Amirya » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:55 pm

Darielle wrote:
If I don't, and then it turns out I don't have time to play on monday, I screwed myself out of possible LFR gear.


If you don't, and you don't have time to play on Monday, how were you planning to run a scheduled Flex run?

I assume that it would work something like, "OK guys, Flex raid is up for Monday. See you then!"

Then you say, "Hmm, I think I'll go to that, I don't think I'm going to dinner with my crazy girlfriend's strange neighbor's cousin."

Monday rolls around, and well, "OH DAMN. I have to work mandatory overtime, and won't be home until late! I'm going to miss Flex!"

Your guild runs the scheduled Flex run. It doesn't have to be scrapped or pugged because you didn't show up.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:40 pm

Thels wrote:If I don't, and then it turns out I don't have time to play on monday, I screwed myself out of possible LFR gear.

If I don't show up for my scheduled normal-mode raids, I don't get loot for them either. Kinda like if I don't show up for work I don't get a paycheck. If you don't run the content, you don't get anything.

If MR. LFR was saving his lock til Monday and then finds out he can't use it, he doesn't get loot for one week out of the 40-some that the patch will last. Is he seriously so entitled that he's going to quit the game over missing out on his chance of LFR loot for 1/40 of the patch?

In fact, I'd say 10-15 weeks in he probably won't want anything from LFR and will either run Flex exclusively, or run an alt in LFR, unless his Flex rolls have been particularly unlucky. That's 25 weeks he won't run LFR on his main, or get LFR loot on his main.

Didn't Theck basically tell us to stop talking about this a couple pages back, because it's programatically impossible for Bliz to do a shared LFR/Flex lockout? Besides, I've been through why the vast majority of LFR raiders won't have to wait unitl Monday night to run their Flex, but you don't want to hear it. Instead you keep to this idea that LFR raiders will be screwed if they don't run LFR for every single week of the entire patch.

If Bliz is going to do something about burnout, then they either make loot unavailable, or undesirable. You're not going to change your mind about making it unavailable by lockout, and I am not going to start thinking that making it undesirable, by nerfing LFR ilvl, is the way to go, so we're at an impasse, and back to Theck's recommendation that we just shut up about it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:45 am

Koatanga wrote:
Thels wrote:If I don't, and then it turns out I don't have time to play on monday, I screwed myself out of possible LFR gear.

If I don't show up for my scheduled normal-mode raids, I don't get loot for them either.


You're completely missing the point of what audience Flex is intended for. Whereas normal raiders are expected to show up almost every raid, Flex is actually meant for people and groups that might make one raid and be unable to make the next raid.

Loot lockout completely takes out the flexible nature of LFR and Flex. Normal and Heroic aren't meant to be flexible. LFR and Flex are. Applying Normal/Heroic norms and behaviour to LFR and Flex just won't cut it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:14 am

Also, noone said you should get loot for a flex raid you didn't run.
Quite the opposite, they are saying you should get loot for the (first) flex run you do run (in a lockout).
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:49 pm

Thels wrote:You're completely missing the point of what audience Flex is intended for. Whereas normal raiders are expected to show up almost every raid, Flex is actually meant for people and groups that might make one raid and be unable to make the next raid.

Loot lockout completely takes out the flexible nature of LFR and Flex. Normal and Heroic aren't meant to be flexible. LFR and Flex are. Applying Normal/Heroic norms and behaviour to LFR and Flex just won't cut it.

Is it meant to be flexible or is it meant to be run as late as possible on Monday night? If it's meant to be flexible, then people can run it as early as possible in the week and have no problem running flex after. They don't have to wait until Monday so there's no issue of unexpected overtime that robs them of teh precious.

Surely if it's flexible then next week they can run it earlier to avoid the OT problem, so they only miss their chance for one week out of 40-ish.

You're arguing the Monday thing like it's a common scenario for LFR raiders that they can't run Flex any other time, then turn around and say it's meant to be flexible. If it's flexible, why would the common practice be waiting til Monday?

If it's not a common problem, then why hold back a sensible solution for the benefit of a niche group of LFR raiders who get unexpected overtime on Mondays? Does that represent a larger community that the entirety of HC and Norm mode raiders who will feel the need to run the content in order to maximise their potential, leading to burnout and perhaps cancelled subscriptions?

Nooska wrote:Also, noone said you should get loot for a flex raid you didn't run.
Quite the opposite, they are saying you should get loot for the (first) flex run you do run (in a lockout).

Seriously, Nooska, this habit you have of not reading what I am responding to is getting REALLY old. The case in point was when the person was going to run his Flex raid on Monday night, but unexpected mandatory overtime prevented him from running it. That means he didn't run a first flex in that lockout. And as I said, if I don't run my norm raid because I have to work late, I don't get loot for it either. Life happens.



Seriously LFR is going to have a life span for main toons of around 10-15 weeks, with Flex having maybe 5-10 weeks more. That's a maximum 25 weeks out of a 40-week patch (using Cata as reference for the length of the last patch in an Xpac). I think there is room in there for people to miss some opportunities, be spectacularly unlucky, and still run out of upgrades in the LFR/Flex system by the end of the patch.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:16 pm

I never said they should earn Flex loot if they didn't run Flex. However, they have time to run LFR, but should not run LFR because it infringes on their loot if they're running Flex later in the week.

Either way, since you keep on going about "But they can run X at day A and Y at day B" tells me you're still looking at this from the point of a normal/heroic raider, and not from the point of a player Flex is actually intended for, so this entire discussion is moot.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:20 pm

Then you say, "Hmm, I think I'll go to that, I don't think I'm going to dinner with my crazy girlfriend's strange neighbor's cousin."

Monday rolls around, and well, "OH DAMN. I have to work mandatory overtime, and won't be home until late! I'm going to miss Flex!"

Your guild runs the scheduled Flex run. It doesn't have to be scrapped or pugged because you didn't show up.


Sure, the guild will still run the scheduled Flex. But you're not "losing loot" because of a lack of flexibility, you're losing loot because you missed a scheduled run. Whether you can get loot from LFR separately or not is completely irrelevant to that, because in both ways you're "losing Flex loot".

The difference is in whether you want to run LFR or not, or whether you're a person who has Flex Raids on the horizon because you're a Flex Raider who apparently HAS scheduled runs, as the system is designed for. Even if you're unsure and then proceed to run LFR and then Flex, coins will still be able to be used for Flex runs.

Either way, since you keep on going about "But they can run X at day A and Y at day B" tells me you're still looking at this from the point of a normal/heroic raider, and not from the point of a player Flex is actually intended for, so this entire discussion is moot.


I'd actually say the opposite. All he's looking at it is from the point of view of one person having the same time to be able to spend on LFR or Flex as is fitting for where he's at. If one can't happen (Flex), LFR is a fallback to be used in the same time.

The concern of whether people will not run with guildies in a Flex run for lack of an additional chance at loot for the week, or that people will decide to do X then Y because it has a chance at 13 more ilvl's on 1 slot of gear that may or may not drop isn't necessarily "the point of view of a player Flex is actually intended for".
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:31 pm

Thels wrote:I never said they should earn Flex loot if they didn't run Flex. However, they have time to run LFR, but should not run LFR because it infringes on their loot if they're running Flex later in the week.

Either way, since you keep on going about "But they can run X at day A and Y at day B" tells me you're still looking at this from the point of a normal/heroic raider, and not from the point of a player Flex is actually intended for, so this entire discussion is moot.

The problem with the discussion is that you keep changing the goalposts. First you tell me lots of people aren't going to get loot because they can't run their Flex raid on Monday, then you tell me Flex raiding is supposed to be flexible. Well, if it's supposed to be Flexible, why wait for a Monday night run?

Honestly, how is a single-lockout system any different to the Mogu coins? Everyone manages to use them on the content they want to use them on without feeling cheated because they used them on an LFR run then got invited to a Norm run later in the week.

I had a whole bunch saved up on my main, so I used them when we ran T14 just for fun. Know why I had them saved up on my main? Because once you've got what you need from a level of raiding, you move on to the next.

Your hypothetical raider will fairly quickly get to the point where he no longer needs anything from LFR. If he finds he can't run Flex on a particular day, he'll find another Flex run. The great thing about Flex is that any raid can use another body up to 25 people, so there will be spots open all over the place as people run their mains AND alts through.

If the raider keeps trying for a Monday flex raid when he constantly gets unexpected mandatory overtime on Monday, he should probably smarten up and expect the overtime. Maybe if something that obvious is that difficult for him to manage, he's best off just in LFR anyway. Otherwise, it's an occasional thing and hey, life happens.

You are coming from the standpoint that a raider only capable of running LFR currently, for one drop chance per boss, deserves two chances when Flex comes in. Therefore if he runs Flex before LFR it infringes on his loot chances from Flex. I agree that in that instance it does, but I ask why does he deserve an extra drop chance per boss per week over what he has now? That's twice the loot acquisition rate, which means he burns through the content twice as quickly, becomes bored, and moves on to the next game. From a design standpoint, you're shooting yourself in the pocketbook, unless you reduce the drop rate.

My guild will be running Flex raid on Wednesday nights, going on to Thursday nights if for some reason we don't clear. We'll be welcoming new people. I can't believe we're alone in giving a non-Monday opportunity for Flex raiding.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:30 am

Theck worded it really nice:

http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/21/flex-capacitor/

I'm just going to leave it to that now.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:04 am

Koatanga wrote:
Nooska wrote:Also, noone said you should get loot for a flex raid you didn't run.
Quite the opposite, they are saying you should get loot for the (first) flex run you do run (in a lockout).

Seriously, Nooska, this habit you have of not reading what I am responding to is getting REALLY old.

Seriosuly Koatanga, this habit you have of not reading what you are responding to is getting REALLY old.


...

Thels did NOT say that the person that wasn't able to get home and run the flex raid should get flex loot.
He said that under a shared lockout, he would get NO loot that week, because he wouldn't have run LFR earlier (or rather, he shouldn't as that would be gimping himself).
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:41 pm

Nooska wrote:Thels did NOT say that the person that wasn't able to get home and run the flex raid should get flex loot.
He said that under a shared lockout, he would get NO loot that week, because he wouldn't have run LFR earlier (or rather, he shouldn't as that would be gimping himself).

He wouldn't get any loot because HE DIDN'T RUN ANYTHING. If you don't run anything, you don't get loot.

And it's ONE freaking week out of 40. If it was a regular occurrence, then he would look for a different Flex raid that he could run earlier in the week. If it was a regular occurrence and he doesn't fix it, I fail to see how that's anyone's problem but his.

ONE out of 40. What is he, some kind of progression LFR raider who NEEDS loot every week in order to maintain his place on the realm's most-progressed LFR-Raider list? Is anyone even counting that? Realm-First All-LFR-Loot achievement maybe? No?

And neither of you bothered to answer the Fortune coins issue. What if you are a norm raider like myself, and what if your norm raid raids on Monday night, like the hypothetical raider's Flex raid does? Do you spend your Fortune coins in LFR just in case your raid doesn't go on Monday, or do you wait to spend them on better loot on Monday? If you don't then raid on Monday, were you cheated out of loot? You can use the coins next week, but that's like a whole week away, and you have no guarantee of the run even then.

It's really the same issue, isn't it? Yet nobody has a problem with it now. We end up with extra coins lying around gathering dust by the end of the patch because we can't use them, just like you'll have weeks and weeks of opportunities to run LFR at the end of the patch that you will voluntarily forego because you have everything you want from it already.

It's pointless to complain about quitting LFR just one week later than you would have otherwise.

You guys act as if there is only one week in the patch, and if he doesn't get loot from at least one of LFR or Flex, it's all over. There will be a time in the patch where he gets no usable loot from either one. Probably several weeks. Probably a full third of the patch.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:34 pm

Thels did NOT say that the person that wasn't able to get home and run the flex raid should get flex loot.
He said that under a shared lockout, he would get NO loot that week, because he wouldn't have run LFR earlier (or rather, he shouldn't as that would be gimping himself).


There are a few levels of contradiction here.

For one, running LFR earlier in the week isn't "gimping" anyone. If anything, going to LFR and getting a few items could mean that the Flex raid goes more smoothly as a result of upgrades and/or familiarity.

Secondly, when pointed out earlier that Flex's tuning for its intended audience is that it should be easy, and within a few wipes, Thels argued otherwise. The result of THAT, if he believes so, means that said casual Flex raider isn't expected to start 1/14 Flex and go 14/14 within one night, so what he's doing earlier in the week is running the later wings of Flex - he/she has no interest in LFR anyway. It's not a "Do I do LFR choice" at all the way it's being portrayed.

And finally, whether you miss out on Flex loot or not from missing a scheduled run is irrelevant to whether you have an extra shot at loot from LFR. If you miss the Flex run, you miss the Flex run regardless. The only consequence that LFR can add to it is based on whether you can or cannot consistently be expected to get double loot shots every week. If LFR is being presented as an either/or choice in case of missed Flex runs, a lockout is completely irrelevant until you've missed your Flex run.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:53 am

Darielle wrote:
Thels did NOT say that the person that wasn't able to get home and run the flex raid should get flex loot.
He said that under a shared lockout, he would get NO loot that week, because he wouldn't have run LFR earlier (or rather, he shouldn't as that would be gimping himself).


There are a few levels of contradiction here.

For one, running LFR earlier in the week isn't "gimping" anyone. If anything, going to LFR and getting a few items could mean that the Flex raid goes more smoothly as a result of upgrades and/or familiarity.

Secondly, when pointed out earlier that Flex's tuning for its intended audience is that it should be easy, and within a few wipes, Thels argued otherwise. The result of THAT, if he believes so, means that said casual Flex raider isn't expected to start 1/14 Flex and go 14/14 within one night, so what he's doing earlier in the week is running the later wings of Flex - he/she has no interest in LFR anyway. It's not a "Do I do LFR choice" at all the way it's being portrayed.

And finally, whether you miss out on Flex loot or not from missing a scheduled run is irrelevant to whether you have an extra shot at loot from LFR. If you miss the Flex run, you miss the Flex run regardless. The only consequence that LFR can add to it is based on whether you can or cannot consistently be expected to get double loot shots every week. If LFR is being presented as an either/or choice in case of missed Flex runs, a lockout is completely irrelevant until you've missed your Flex run.


I completely agree with the red highlighted, however, saying that running LFR earlier isn't gimping this hypothetical raider, is untrue if there was a shared loot lockout.
With no shared loot lockout (like currently), then, absolutely correct, he would noe bet getting loot because he ran nothing - that is absolutely fair (noone is arguing for "welfare epics" as far as I've seen, so we are all agreed on that point).

You also have a point in regards to progression in Flex vs running LFR later wings, and I totally agree with that (within reason of course - the first weeek in flex I would say "no LFR" as you don't know how far you get, and later weeks I would say no LFR that could reasonably be taken on in flex - again under a shared loot lockout.

However, the "not running all LFR" argument goes for the heroic raider after that one or two pieces too, so I think we can agree that running a few LFR segments per week in addition to ones "progression" raiding (be that flex, normal or heroic) is NOT a problem.

Koatanga wrote:
Nooska wrote:Thels did NOT say that the person that wasn't able to get home and run the flex raid should get flex loot.
He said that under a shared lockout, he would get NO loot that week, because he wouldn't have run LFR earlier (or rather, he shouldn't as that would be gimping himself).

He wouldn't get any loot because HE DIDN'T RUN ANYTHING. If you don't run anything, you don't get loot.

And it's ONE freaking week out of 40. If it was a regular occurrence, then he would look for a different Flex raid that he could run earlier in the week.


Who said it was 1 week out of 40? and who said there are 40 weeks in play here?
A flex raider may indeed be one with a tight schedule that may or may not miss the weekly flexraid quite a lot more often than 2.5% of the time - this is a complete strawman, and I'mc alling you on it.
Noone, and I repeat, noone has talked about the length of a tier or how often you may miss, its the possibility of not being able to go.
Going from 2 loot chances if you do go and there is no lockout to 0 chances if you can't make flex because of a shared lockout, meaning you don't go LFR because you would miss flex, thats being argued abot.

Regardless, I'm done arguing about why it is unreasonable, for further reasoning, I'll point at thecks blogpost, which has quite good reasoning on all the points, even when I don't necessarily agree on all the points and premises - the reasoning is sound.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:42 am

I'm saying 40 weeks because Dragon Soul came in with patch 4.3 on November 29, 2011,, and Pandaria was released on September 25, 2012. That's 43 weeks for the final tier of the last patch.

And it's once, or a handful of times, because if it's a regular thing then any player ought to be smart enough to latch onto earlier Flex runs, knowing he's probably not going to make the later one.

And again, you leave points unanswered:

How is this any different to deciding when to use fortune coins? We have 3 to use between LFR and normal mode now, and can manage them without issue. Even at that rate we have coins left over because we get all we can out of the content before the next patch is released.

Why is it imperative that this raider gear up immediately, such that missing a week would be such a setback? Or a handful of weeks? Or a bunch of weeks, but if he's dumb enough not to get onto a Flex he can make, why would we assume he could handle Flex mechanics? Perhaps LFR is where he belongs.

Does this groups of LFR raiders who have Monday overtime reflect a larger or smaller population than the normal and heroic raiders who will feel pressured to run all available loot lockouts to maximize their performance, either at the behest of their raid leader, or to fulfill their own sense of responsibility?

I honestly don't believe that LFR raiders on tight schedules are who the loot system should be designed around. I think there is a large number of players who will feel compelled to run all the available content to assure that they have the best gear they can get, maximise their valor points, and be as prepared as possible for their main tier of raiding, be it normal mode or flex. I think the consideration of their burnout leading to either cancelled subscriptions or not taking up the next expansion is of greater importance than catering to someone who doesn't even have time to play the game.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:37 am

Then: people cancel because "burnout from to much to do"
Future: people cancel because "don't have anything to do anymore, done for the week in two days, it's boring".

So, yeah, in before that.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:40 am

Its still a strawman, because noone goes into raiding looking at X weeks total - by that count it doesn't matter if heroic raiders (and all other diffculties ofc) get any gear in the final tier, as it isn't used for anything later.

Also, you are looking at flex from some - to me - pretty weird starting point;
" if it's a regular thing then any player ought to be smart enough to latch onto earlier Flex runs"
Flex is for teh "Friends and family" type guilds - you don't go shopping around that much (even though I have claimed, and will maintain untill proven wrong by the game, that there will be Flex raiding guilds - for whom normal is the "heroic" version)

And it is different than coins, because you don't lose access to your coins when you use them on a boss in one difficulty. It is also different because you can stockpile and use your coins on specific bosses (regardless of difficulty).
In fact, How is it similar to coins of forune (or mogu runes, or what any given tiers token is called)?

Also, again you are trying to be too concrete. The examples that have been listed do not pertain to any single person, they are examples of where issues arise.

I do challenge you to make a reasonable argument for why the solutions should specifically be found by punishing the "lowest tier" of raiders to solve a problem that is limited in scope and time, and pertains to the "highest tier" of raiders (which is numerically significantly smaller).
A reasonable argument that does not involve taking WoW in a direction, audience-wise, that the developers are clearly not interested in taking it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:19 am

People still arguing? Theck pretty much said all that needed to be said for the current situation.
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Klaudandus
 
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Flex » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:28 am

Klaudandus wrote:People still arguing? Theck pretty much said all that needed to be said for the current situation.


For normal/Heroic remove the cancel button from the bonus roll window since I think it still has an X close button, if it doesn't add the X close button.

Shift the Dice up, add a Dice with a gold + sign overlayed in the top right quadrant. This will be the super bonus roll.

Same chance as the regular bonus roll for a same difficulty item. 10% for a Flex item. 20% for a LFR item. Only one of those outcomes is possible, so no chance of a triple loot bonus roll.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby cdan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:14 am

Klaudandus wrote:People still arguing? Theck pretty much said all that needed to be said for the current situation.


You have to admire the stamina though. Even if I cared I'd have given up the argument ages ago.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Teranoid » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:50 pm

Klaudandus wrote:People still arguing? Theck pretty much said all that needed to be said for the current situation.


It's funny as hell because none of them can shut up for 5 minutes to realize how futile this is and how stupid they all look.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:18 pm

The ones that amuse me the most are those that still want to change something even though theck explained why that is nigh feasible at this stage and seems to be corroborated by the initial blue post that started all of this, that they seem to know there is something that might cause some discomfort to some people but they're taking the lesser of two evils and try to affect the least amount of people.
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Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
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Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9378
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:28 pm

Right, so discussion on this board is now limited only to things that are definitely going into the game. No speculation or "having ideas" is allowed unless they are things included in the patch notes.

I get it.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
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