LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:39 pm

Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:You know, i was thinking of picking up AC3, if only because I like the revolutionary war...


Don't.


I shall heed your warning then.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:30 pm

I didn't mind the story....hated Conner though....ugh.....
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:05 am

Blizzard already stated that different lockouts wouldn't work. Say there's this Bob in your raiding guild that doesn't raid, only LFR. He casually works his way through the LFR instances during the first few evenings of the week. Then on monday, Joe got sick, so you need a replacement, and Bob just happens to be online. Right now, you can pull Bob in, and see how he does. If they shared lockouts, even if that were just loot lockouts, you couldn't take Bob along. (And no, specifying that Bob in illegible for loot because he already had his chance on loot in LFR doesn't work, because the boss still drops 2/6 pieces.)

WoW is really a game about investment->reward. That's a really core part of the game. Running LFR and Flex is an investment which has loot at it's reward. This shall always be the case, else LFR and Flex would be abandoned. The trick is to make the reward as minimal as possible for people that should be running 1 or 2 difficulties higher, and I think they pushed things as much in that direction as they could, while still keeping the investment->reward present for the people LFR is intended for.

People that currently have ToT HC on farm have about 543ish gear. The 528 gear from LFR won't cut it. The 540 gear from Flex might with upgrades, but people that have ToT HC on farm will progress quite rapidly through SoO and loot some 553 items, and since you can only upgrade 2 items per week on average, they are more likely to save their valor on upgrading 553 gear to 561.

People that currently have ToT Normal on farm and perhaps dabbled in a few HC bosses, or perhaps not, have about 530ish gear. The 528 gear from LFR still won't cut it, because they won't spend valor on upgrading LFR gear when there's Flex gear and perhaps some normal pieces available for them. The 540 gear will be helping them out a lot, though.

So it's more the normal guilds that have an incentive to farm Flex on top of their normal runs than HC guilds. Of course, well itemized pieces, tier pieces and trinkets skew things over a bit, as they don't strictly follow the ilvl pattern.

Also, the "If you don't want to, don't do it." is a really cheap argument. WoW is not a single player game, it's a group effort game. If you are slacking on gearing up, you're not just making things harder on yourself, you're making things harder on 9/24 others as well. Not wanting to let your guildies down is enough of a reason for a lot of people to be forced into running LFRs.

A lot of people are in guilds where that is perfectly acceptable. Where the mentality in the guild is that it doesn't matter that much if the boss goes down or not, as long as you guys have fun trying. And that's all perfectly well. If that's a way in how you can enjoy the game, then all the more power to you! :)

Other people are really result driven, and would really like to see that boss go down. And if one half of the raiding squad is running their LFRs every week to get that last trinket or tier piece, to give their very best, that could certainly cause some peer pressure on the other half to do the same, even if it's not specifically requested by the guild leader or any member in specific, and there are no penalties for not doing so.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:06 am

A)In and of itself, nothing would be lost if heroic raiders dont do LFR. However, what you want is different. What you want is for blizz to remove the temptation, which is something else.


Again, you're reading what you want to read.

Why did this come up? Because Ion said something, which doesn't actually quite work the way he thinks it does on several points. People won't have a problem upgrading Flex gear - because there'll be nothing else to do with Valor unless they get loot showered onto them, and so on.

What do you think I've said? I've pointed out a few different implementations where Heroic raiders won't be incentivised to go into LFR for power upgrades - even simple things like a loot lockout which the Legendary chain already has. Unless that is something that needs to be preserved, it doesn't diminish character progression for LFR/Flex's target audience. It doesn't even prevent raiders from going to LFR or Flex mode with friends, for fun, to do metas, etc. What it does do is remove the power advantage gained - because there's nothing good coming out of that design.

In fact, it would improve the experience for the actual intended audience. For one, you could do away with silly gating entirely.

If you think any of that has anything to do with whining about being forced to do something, you're making up your own imaginary douchebag and talking to them.

The player is at fault for blaming Blizzard that they are "forced" to do something they don't want to do because the player is a weak willed gear whore.


But:
- The only people talking about anyone being forced to do anything are you.
- The ilvl's are such because they feel that without that, people won't find the gear good enough, so for the player to be a weak willed gear whore, it means EVERYONE is a weak willed gear whore and the game is designed as such.
- A weak willed gear whore would want more of these advantages as early as possible because it would get things done sooner.
- Their intent to get people out in the world more is a little bit hampered if people are double-doing raids.
- That's irrelevant to Blizzard.

The things I want to do in game are the things I enjoy doing.


Those are also the things everyone wants to do. That people want to do the things they enjoy doing is one of the reasons this kind of discussion even crops up.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:08 am

AC3's story isn't bad, but the gameplay is just silly. FOr a lot of it, you just randomly click, win and move on.

Blizzard already stated that different lockouts wouldn't work. Say there's this Bob in your raiding guild that doesn't raid, only LFR. He casually works his way through the LFR instances during the first few evenings of the week. Then on monday, Joe got sick, so you need a replacement, and Bob just happens to be online. Right now, you can pull Bob in, and see how he does. If they shared lockouts, even if that were just loot lockouts, you couldn't take Bob along. (And no, specifying that Bob in illegible for loot because he already had his chance on loot in LFR doesn't work, because the boss still drops 2/6 pieces.)


That doesn't actually affect looting. Bob's presence or eligibility for loot doesn't affect the loot that does drop, so whether the boss drops the same 2 pieces and only 8, 9 or 2 people CAN loot it won't make those people get more loot, or change anything. Bob being ineligible as a Rogue won't mean that Agi Leather won't drop.

It's not like, say, DS LFR where having people locked out made things better.

People that currently have ToT HC on farm have about 543ish gear. The 528 gear from LFR won't cut it. The 540 gear from Flex might with upgrades, but people that have ToT HC on farm will progress quite rapidly through SoO and loot some 553 items, and since you can only upgrade 2 items per week on average, they are more likely to save their valor on upgrading 553 gear to 561.


Do you typically get more than 2 pieces every week, in your experience?
Would you choose to upgrade a 553 ring or neck or cloak and NOT a 540 Chest or Legs or Weapon or Trinket? Because I know what >I'd< upgrade there, and isn't not the higher item level.

Also, side note, I would say that the people with Normal on farm and dabbling in a few HC mode ARE the Heroic raiders. They're in fact the majority of them. People with Ra-Den down not so much.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:16 am

Darielle wrote:What do you think I've said? I've pointed out a few different implementations where Heroic raiders won't be incentivised to go into LFR for power upgrades - even simple things like a loot lockout which the Legendary chain already has.


The problem with the legendary chain is that the entire loot is personal. In addition, the rewards for doing it on LFR or Normal are the same. It's pretty easy to implement there, without any annoying side effects.

For actual loot lockouts, there are three problems:
1) The loot ain't the same. If you do LFR first, and then Normal, you'd rather have the Normal pieces than the LFR pieces.
2) If you're not able to get any loot in Normal, why would you go Normal? What reason do you have of being there?
3) The boss still drops two/six pieces of loot, right? So because one half is locked out, the other half gets more gear? This would lead to weird setups where on the odd weeks, 5 members of the raid squad would run LFR before normal, while on the even weeks, the other 5 members of the raid squad would run LFR before normal.

And what if I don't get any loot in normal, because nothing dropped for me, or I lost all the rolls? Am I still eligible to get loot in LFR?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:23 am

3) The boss still drops two/six pieces of loot, right? So because one half is locked out, the other half gets more gear? This would lead to weird setups where on the odd weeks, 5 members of the raid squad would run LFR before normal, while on the even weeks, the other 5 members of the raid squad would run LFR before normal.


Huh?

The loot the boss drops in a Normal raid is independent of who's in the raid. 5 people being locked out won't make the other half get more gear, they'll get the same Intellect plate that's dropped 15x alraedy.

1) The loot ain't the same. If you do LFR first, and then Normal, you'd rather have the Normal pieces than the LFR pieces.
2) If you're not able to get any loot in Normal, why would you go Normal? What reason do you have of being there?


This IS a slight complication, but it's not hard to remedy. Similar to loot specialisation, the purposes would be served by allowing a person to opt out of receiving loot.
A person with a standard raid isn't going to want to do LFR for the loots before Normal anyway, his only possible interest would be in getting bosses he missed out on, but it gives him freedom to do so (helping a friend etc.) without affecting his raid status. A person whose schedule is unclear (in that he doesn't know if he'll get a good pug or whether his guild will raid) gets a guaranteed payoff anyway.

And what if I don't get any loot in normal, because nothing dropped for me, or I lost all the rolls? Am I still eligible to get loot in LFR?


Would you expect to be able to double dip loot from different lockouts just because nothing dropped, EVER? Aside from the back that double/tripping dipping loot just because nothing dropped is still just as silly, it would be pretty counterintuitive to allow it to happen just because nothing dropped, seeing as that's the major reason it IS a thing.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:28 am

Darielle wrote:AC3's story isn't bad, but the gameplay is just silly. FOr a lot of it, you just randomly click, win and move on.

Blizzard already stated that different lockouts wouldn't work. Say there's this Bob in your raiding guild that doesn't raid, only LFR. He casually works his way through the LFR instances during the first few evenings of the week. Then on monday, Joe got sick, so you need a replacement, and Bob just happens to be online. Right now, you can pull Bob in, and see how he does. If they shared lockouts, even if that were just loot lockouts, you couldn't take Bob along. (And no, specifying that Bob in illegible for loot because he already had his chance on loot in LFR doesn't work, because the boss still drops 2/6 pieces.)


That doesn't actually affect looting. Bob's presence or eligibility for loot doesn't affect the loot that does drop, so whether the boss drops the same 2 pieces and only 8, 9 or 2 people CAN loot it won't make those people get more loot, or change anything. Bob being ineligible as a Rogue won't mean that Agi Leather won't drop.

It's not like, say, DS LFR where having people locked out made things better.


Perhaps for 10 man, you're likely to shard it. Say Joe and Bob are both rogues, and there's no other agi leathers in the group. Any further agi leather gear would be dissed anyhow. But what about 25 mans, where the other rogue is then getting all the agi leather gear, or perhaps the monk or feral druid is? Or what if you also had a Brewmaster in your 10 man group, who's suddenly getting all the loot, rather than having to share it with Joe?

As said, it would start to become really advantageous to send one half of the raid squad to LFR before the raid, so they get the LFR gear, and you're still able to give all the gear to the other half of the raid, so you're not really wasting any. The next week, you switch it around, and send the other half into LFR first.

And... What's Bob going to get from all this? Perhaps it's his first time in normal, and he's getting a decent experience while helping out his friends. But what if you can't take Bob but have to look for a random. That random ain't going to get anything at all from your run, so he has zero incentive to tag along.

You still come down to the choice "Do I want to go ahead and run LFR this week, or should I try and remain unlocked, in the hopes that I can join a normal run and get some gear there?" Blizzard clearly stated they do not want to force players to make that choice.

Darielle wrote:
People that currently have ToT HC on farm have about 543ish gear. The 528 gear from LFR won't cut it. The 540 gear from Flex might with upgrades, but people that have ToT HC on farm will progress quite rapidly through SoO and loot some 553 items, and since you can only upgrade 2 items per week on average, they are more likely to save their valor on upgrading 553 gear to 561.


Do you typically get more than 2 pieces every week, in your experience?
Would you choose to upgrade a 553 ring or neck or cloak and NOT a 540 Chest or Legs or Weapon or Trinket? Because I know what >I'd< upgrade there, and isn't not the higher item level.

Also, side note, I would say that the people with Normal on farm and dabbling in a few HC mode ARE the Heroic raiders. They're in fact the majority of them. People with Ra-Den down not so much.


Early on in the new tier, yes, it's quite likely to get two pieces per week, since you can still use about everything.

As for upgrading a 553 ring or a 540 chest... I'll probably going to keep that ring for a while, while the 540 chest will be replaced pretty soon, even if I upgrade it, so I'd likely upgrade the 553 ring, especially if I have a 543 chest as well, making the chest upgrade only 5 ilvls, rather than 8.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:33 am

Darielle wrote:
3) The boss still drops two/six pieces of loot, right? So because one half is locked out, the other half gets more gear? This would lead to weird setups where on the odd weeks, 5 members of the raid squad would run LFR before normal, while on the even weeks, the other 5 members of the raid squad would run LFR before normal.


Huh?

The loot the boss drops in a Normal raid is independent of who's in the raid. 5 people being locked out won't make the other half get more gear, they'll get the same Intellect plate that's dropped 15x alraedy.


But it will make the other half get more gear... Sure, there's intellect plate, but there are also a ton of items that have a lot of overlap between different people. Several people being on lockout would certainly mean that there are a couple of pieces going to other people on default, that might've gone to one of the other people that are now on lockout, especially in 25 man.

Darielle wrote:
1) The loot ain't the same. If you do LFR first, and then Normal, you'd rather have the Normal pieces than the LFR pieces.
2) If you're not able to get any loot in Normal, why would you go Normal? What reason do you have of being there?


This IS a slight complication, but it's not hard to remedy. Similar to loot specialisation, the purposes would be served by allowing a person to opt out of receiving loot.
A person with a standard raid isn't going to want to do LFR for the loots before Normal anyway, his only possible interest would be in getting bosses he missed out on, but it gives him freedom to do so (helping a friend etc.) without affecting his raid status. A person whose schedule is unclear (in that he doesn't know if he'll get a good pug or whether his guild will raid) gets a guaranteed payoff anyway.


Besides the fact that this would complicate the UI, and lead to a lot of issues and tickets about "I forgot to enable/disable loot eligibility", it would also force people to make a choice "Should I run LFR this week and get some loot from that? Or should I remain unsaved in the hopes that I run into a nice group?" Blizzard already stated they don't want players to have to make that choice.

Darielle wrote:
And what if I don't get any loot in normal, because nothing dropped for me, or I lost all the rolls? Am I still eligible to get loot in LFR?


Would you expect to be able to double dip loot from different lockouts just because nothing dropped, EVER? Aside from the back that double/tripping dipping loot just because nothing dropped is still just as silly, it would be pretty counterintuitive to allow it to happen just because nothing dropped, seeing as that's the major reason it IS a thing.


I'll agree with you there, but the system will be rather confusing, and people might have that question.



Overall, I deem it more likely that they would simply hand out the LFR chance on loot for free in Normal/Heroic, rather than going with this "loot lockout" system, that's both complex and abuse-able.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:50 am

Another thing I just thought of... It would force people to go through the list of every single item that can drop from a boss, and assign every single item to a player before killing the boss, so that players that don't have an item assigned to them can make themselves ineligible for loot, and run the boss on LFR.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:54 am

Perhaps for 10 man, you're likely to shard it. Say Joe and Bob are both rogues, and there's no other agi leathers in the group. Any further agi leather gear would be dissed anyhow. But what about 25 mans, where the other rogue is then getting all the agi leather gear, or perhaps the monk or feral druid is? Or what if you also had a Brewmaster in your 10 man group, who's suddenly getting all the loot, rather than having to share it with Joe?

As said, it would start to become really advantageous to send one half of the raid squad to LFR before the raid, so they get the LFR gear, and you're still able to give all the gear to the other half of the raid, so you're not really wasting any. The next week, you switch it around, and send the other half into LFR first.


These aren't things that change from current. If you wanted to give loot to half the raid, you already can. And the other half is already doing LFR, so at worst case you're .... not changing anything for 100% of the people

And... What's Bob going to get from all this? Perhaps it's his first time in normal, and he's getting a decent experience while helping out his friends. But what if you can't take Bob but have to look for a random. That random ain't going to get anything at all from your run, so he has zero incentive to tag along.


That thing you just had in the second sentence. It's an incentive.

You still come down to the choice "Do I want to go ahead and run LFR this week, or should I try and remain unlocked, in the hopes that I can join a normal run and get some gear there?" Blizzard clearly stated they do not want to force players to make that choice.

Early on in the new tier, yes, it's quite likely to get two pieces per week, since you can still use about everything.

As for upgrading a 553 ring or a 540 chest... I'll probably going to keep that ring for a while, while the 540 chest will be replaced pretty soon, even if I upgrade it, so I'd likely upgrade the 553 ring, especially if I have a 543 chest as well, making the chest upgrade only 5 ilvls, rather than 8.


How do you plot that? The likelihood of you holding onto that ring is the exact same, since Rings are more generally dispersed, you'll have access to Heroic Rings from week 1 of Heroics. Moreoever, unlike with the Chest, you're just as likely to haev the exact same ring drop as you would a different one.

And if you've been getting 2 pieces a week on average, and everyone in your raid has been in the same boat, that's some pretty ballsy luck going on there. Bearing in mind that you WON'T use just about everything. Even for us as Paladins, a 553 Dodge/Parry piece is not going to be as attractive as some of the 543's we're using now. Some of the offset pieces won't even be worth using for specs until they have all 4 pieces, or will never be used over tier pieces. Cloaks are pretty guaranteed to be sharded in any normal raiding guild.

You still come down to the choice "Do I want to go ahead and run LFR this week, or should I try and remain unlocked, in the hopes that I can join a normal run and get some gear there?" Blizzard clearly stated they do not want to force players to make that choice.


This isn't a choice, especially since LFR is winged and a person is not going to just pop into a Normal run and kill Garrosh at the start of the tier. A person who openraids Flex has a pretty much guaranteed kill, on the other hand, so there's no choice to make for him/her either.

But it will make the other half get more gear... Sure, there's intellect plate, but there are also a ton of items that have a lot of overlap between different people. Several people being on lockout would certainly mean that there are a couple of pieces going to other people on default, that might've gone to one of the other people that are now on lockout, especially in 25 man.


But that's something that you can already do. If youw ant your BM to get the loots, you can give him the loots regardless of if the Rogue is locked out or not. On Live, the Rogue is also supplementing with LFR in said hypothetical, so his continuation of LFR for his loot is no change on his personal part, so you've got 50% effect, which doesn't really destroy the entire premise.

Besides the fact that this would complicate the UI, and lead to a lot of issues and tickets about "I forgot to enable/disable loot eligibility", it would also force people to make a choice "Should I run LFR this week and get some loot from that? Or should I remain unsaved in the hopes that I run into a nice group?" Blizzard already stated they don't want players to have to make that choice.


See above regarding choice, and I forgot to enable/disable DOES actually fall into player responsiblity.
More to the point, it doesn't complicate UI any more than selecting your Role in the Dungeon Finder does.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:20 am

So, you say Blizz doesn't want to force players to make a choice, but because Blizz takes that position, it forces Heroic Raiders to do LFR/Flex because the incentive to get the trinket/tier pieces is too high in relation to how boring LFR/Flex is.

And thus, you want lockouts so these people, because they can't control themselves, dont feel forced to do LFR/Flex.

That seems rather selfish.

If they implement the lockouts, the people that are affected the most would be those in Normal raids that haven't been able to complete all the content.

Some raiding groups don't raid till the weekend, or even monday, so if they don't wanna get locked out, they cannot do anything until raid time, then after that is when they can do Flex/LFR.

And your solution about marking what boss you want to be eligible for loot thru the UI seems awfully complicated. If they want to do that, we would know what to do, but the avg person would not. Blizz' most simple solution is the one they currently have.

All because some poor widdle heroic raider feels forced to do boring LFR/Flex.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:53 am

Darielle wrote:These aren't things that change from current. If you wanted to give loot to half the raid, you already can. And the other half is already doing LFR, so at worst case you're .... not changing anything for 100% of the people


Indeed, these aren't changing from current. You keep the incentive for people to run LFR on top of normal with this loot lockout system. It just became a lot more complex.



Darielle wrote:
You still come down to the choice "Do I want to go ahead and run LFR this week, or should I try and remain unlocked, in the hopes that I can join a normal run and get some gear there?" Blizzard clearly stated they do not want to force players to make that choice.


This isn't a choice, especially since LFR is winged and a person is not going to just pop into a Normal run and kill Garrosh at the start of the tier. A person who openraids Flex has a pretty much guaranteed kill, on the other hand, so there's no choice to make for him/her either.


Perhaps not at the very start of a tier, but there are plenty of pugs going on in say a month and a half after the new raid opening. Say Bob has been doing a bit of LFRs and Flex, and together with some valor upgrades, he's sitting at 543 ilvl. He has the gear to run SoO normal if he gets into a decent group, so he has a big choice to make now. Run Flex again, and hopefully upgrade his ilvl to 544 or perhaps 545, or wait for sunday and monday, knowing that there will be some guilds on monday that might need a random, or perhaps there's a proper alt run he can jump into. Perhaps he joins a group from boss seven, and downs a couple of bosses, but because it's monday evening now, he doesn't have time to LFR the rest anymore. Or perhaps the alt group wasn't as proper as it looked, and they only killed a single boss, but again, there's no time left to farm LFR.

It also forces Bob to just idle and wait, not running any LFRs until the very last moment, and then run them all on monday in a row.



Darielle wrote:See above regarding choice, and I forgot to enable/disable DOES actually fall into player responsiblity.
More to the point, it doesn't complicate UI any more than selecting your Role in the Dungeon Finder does.


The Loot Specialization defaults to "Current spec", so people that are unaware of the option still get loot as normal. And of course nobody ever goofed that up, or forgot to change the instance to normal or heroic, so nobody will ever goof this up either.



The problem with your loot lockout system, is that it has a lot of issues, and still doesn't solve the problem. It still forces people to run LFR, just using a much more complex system, by checking before every boss which people will get the loot, and then having all others disable their loot eligibility, so they can run LFR after...

And on the flip side, not every heroic raider is going to dislike Flex. Some heroic raiders do enjoy a more casual environment where they can bring their friends that they can't bring to the heroic raids because those friends will keep progression down.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Taikishi » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:00 am

Having been in both a hardcore raiding guild (Edge during BC) and casual guilds...

Absolutely no one is forcing heroic raiders, especially those shooting for world/realm firsts, to do LFR and Flex for additional drops for the race. It is entirely the choice of those raiders. You don't want to do it? Don't do it. Simple as that. Hell, some of us run LFR first to get drops + the basics of the encounters in order to help teach our guild the fights because we/our guild doesn't have time to do our normal raiding schedule + work + RL stuff + PTR.

Translation: Things are fine as they are. Four difficulties may be too many, but a number of you are suspecting normal going away in 6.0 and I have a friend that fully anticipates flex Heroics in 6.0. Let's let the data determine if it's too many based on what people are running; I know my guild won't be running flex mostly due to time constraints even though it'll be beneficial to have all 15 raiders in raid with a chance at loot.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:16 am

I don't understand this argument. Does it boil down to: all raids should share loot lockout so running all difficulties is not incentivized?
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