LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:33 am

So what, we're responding to 2-3 year old arguments from people on WoW's General Discussion now?

Apparently, that premise is valid back then as it is today, according to you. A bunch of heroic raiders were complaining here that they felt forced to do LFR because it offered them an option to get another piece of loot

You're the one talking about doing LFR/Flex and how it is boring.

I am beginning to think that is the crux of your complaint against Flex/LFR, that it is boring having to trudge thru those modes to get an extra chance at a piece of shiny.

It's not that the chance at the shiny is there, just that it's boring. I don't think Blizz would consider that a valid argument to have flex/lfr and normals share lockouts.

Of course, others had a different idea, and that was to making LFR and Normal/Heroic have different loottables, that way they would not be "forced" to do LFR.

But both options boiled down to "Don't make me go to LFR".

Now, I won't say I don't see where you're coming from... I did all the dailies, and loathed every minute of it, because I felt a certain need to better my toon in order to perform better in raids, even if I'm not raiding at the same level as you -- but Flex, ultimately is right, it's a choice, and I was the one that chose to do something I loathed just because of the reward.

It does not mean the system worked, I'd say the dailies are worse than choosing to do LFR... and is possible many people left the game over the dailies, but really? between dailies and LFR/Flex, the latter is the lesser of two evils.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:41 am

Darielle wrote:What is the reason they do things they don't want to do? Because incentive.
What is the purpose behind incentivising Heroic players into things they don't want to do? Because Blizzard was afraid that raiders who raid and then logoff are bored by the game.
Does having them do LFR keep them interested in the game? No.

Not only are many Heroic raiders also of similar opinion, it doesn't have any bearing on the system. If you don't want to do LFR when there's an incentive, you will still not want to do LFR if there's no incentive. More, that not 100% of people are enticed by an incentive doesn't make the incentive any lesser.


I think Blizz is not trying to incentivize LFR to heroic players, I think players are coming up with that idea in the first place. Just because they see a chance at getting something that is useful for them does not mean Blizz planned that content with them in mind.

It's the reason why Watcher said something akin to heroic raiders would not be spending valor point on Flex gear because they would be better serviced by spending the valor points on upgrades that drop from Normal/Heroic.

Then don't do LFR. Flex would be a better choice for heroic raiders in any case! A pre-made group that clears thru the content like a hot knife thru butter! At least you're raiding with your friends, right?

Seriously, it just sounds like you want to limit LFR/Flex because you MIGHT benefit from them, nevermind the people that content was made for, eh?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:43 am

Apparently, that premise is valid back then as it is today, according to you. A bunch of heroic raiders were complaining here that they felt forced to do LFR because it offered them an option to get another piece of loot


The premise that they have an incentive to do LFR is certainly true. The premise that they are FORCED to do it isn't. And even back then, I highly doubt that they were whining that they needed to do LFR Morchok while they wanted their LFR No'Kaled.

You're the one talking about doing LFR/Flex and how it is boring.

I am beginning to think that is the crux of your complaint against Flex/LFR, that it is boring having to trudge thru those modes to get an extra chance at a piece of shiny.

It's not that the chance at the shiny is there, just that it's boring. I don't think Blizz would consider that a valid argument to have flex/lfr and normals share lockouts.


Again, you're conflating points. THe fact that the system is boring simply means that the reason for the incentive isn't working. It doesn't keep people more interested in the game to make them do more boring things; you want them to play the game more and to enjoy playing the game more.

None of that would mean that if LFR was somehow "fun", it would be great for LFR to contain items that literally make or break entire specs.

But both options boiled down to "Don't make me go to LFR".

Now, I won't say I don't see where you're coming from... I did all the dailies, and loathed every minute of it, because I felt a certain need to better my toon in order to perform better in raids, even if I'm not raiding at the same level as you -- but Flex, ultimately is right, it's a choice, and I was the one that chose to do something I loathed just because of the reward.

It does not mean the system worked, I'd say the dailies are worse than choosing to do LFR... and is possible many people left the game over the dailies, but really? between dailies and LFR/Flex, the latter is the lesser of two evils.


Riddle me three things:
- What do you think is lost if Heroic raiders aren't incentivised to go into LFR?
- You say that it does not mean the system worked, but it either did or it didn't. Did doing those dailies make you feel more invested in the game, more likely to keep playing the game? Or did they just ruin some of the fun you were having within the game?
- Do you really think that choices that boil down to "This gives you an advantage" form a choice? Choosing to perform better? As opposed to what, actively choosing to perform worse is fun? Or that the game is somehow bettered by choices that come down to whether you play the game on a given night or not?

I think Blizz is not trying to incentivize LFR to heroic players, I think players are coming up with that idea in the first place. Just because they see a chance at getting something that is useful for them does not mean Blizz planned that content with them in mind.


Remember that we're talking about several iterations in. If there's no reason to incentivise LFR for raiders, it's extremely easy to not have Heroic players get extra loot from LFR. Not to mention that whether an incentive exists isn't limited to whether that incentive was planned.

Seriously, it just sounds like you want to limit LFR/Flex because you MIGHT benefit from them, nevermind the people that content was made for, eh?


Uh, HOW do you possibly plot not having raiders doing LFR/Flex on top of their normal raids affects the people the content was made for?
Will they not succeed in LFR/Flex without Heroic raiders?
Will they have worse loot in LFR/Flex if there's a loot lockout that allows Blizzard to make LFR/Flex offer even better loot than it currently does on the basis that you can only obtain loot from one mode anyway?
Will they have less of a personal progression if, in the case of modifications to LFR/Flex pieces, their LFR UVLS proc wasn't as powerful as to break a spec but was still powerful enough to be significantly better than their 483?

The actual reason what Ion talked about doesn't quite mesh is that it's based on things that are entirely out of player control or don't mesh -
Whether you have a trinket or not isn't a short time commitment. It's a variable commitment that could be nonexistent or be the entire patch length. That it's variable doesn't make it better.
He thinks that upgrading Flex gear is an either/or choice, when it isn't.
He ignored the effect of itemisation entirely, even though that's a cornerstone of patch cycles as an expansion goes on.
That Heroic raiders will progress in Heroic mode and Normal mode raiders will progress in Normal mode wasn't even a debating point, so its mention makes little sense. Doing LFR or Flex in addition to standard raids has nothing to do with progressing in the other modes.

Then don't do LFR. Flex would be a better choice for heroic raiders in any case! A pre-made group that clears thru the content like a hot knife thru butter! At least you're raiding with your friends, right?


If you have everyone in a 10-man on every night, it's basically another raid night. So no, not really. Especially for 10-mans, Flex just means pugging.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:08 am

Riddle me three things:
- What do you think is lost if Heroic raiders aren't incentivised to go into LFR?
- You say that it does not mean the system worked, but it either did or it didn't. Did doing those dailies make you feel more invested in the game, more likely to keep playing the game? Or did they just ruin some of the fun you were having within the game?
- Do you really think that choices that boil down to "This gives you an advantage" form a choice, and if so do you think things like having crappy talents were also choices? Or that the game is somehow bettered by choices that come down to whether you play the game on a given night or not?


A)In and of itself, nothing would be lost if heroic raiders dont do LFR. However, what you want is different. What you want is for blizz to remove the temptation, which is something else.

B)It ruined the fun. I came close to quitting the game, until I got over the hump. But in the end, it was my choice, just like Flex and Teranoid's choices were equally as valid and said "Fuck it, not doing X" -- Forgive me for the namedropping, but I remember you guys being vocal about not doing dailies/LFRs.

The value of the rewards are pretty subjective. The system works, I placed a certain value upon the rewards above my disdain for the dailies. It also seemed to work for Flex/Tera, when they said "screw this, the reward is not enough for me" (again, sorry for namedropping) -- when I said the system did not work was that I dont think Blizz was expecting the dailies to be such a point of contention that it would cause so many people to quit.

I think everyone would agree that having placed valor purchases behind reps was a bad idea, regardless on whether you actually did the dailies or not.

c)Ultimately? Yes. I could understand the top guilds gaming Dragon Soul LFR, even if I didn't agree with that and was very vocal about it. But seeing how the creme of the crop beats the content before that "Advantage" is available...

Like I said, some of the VP gear was a huge "Advantage" for me seeing how my raid/guild in T14 sucked balls, so I had to "bite the bullet" and do things I didnt want to, but it was my own personal choice.

Is your Raid Leader saying you NEED to do LFR/Flex for an extra chance at shiny otherwise you get kicked from the raid team? Maybe you should reconsider who you play with rather than what the game offers.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:17 am

So, how's the discussion on this raid's slew of new bos...

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Don't mind me, just an Hc raider, backing out reaaaaal slow.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:21 am

Hey, don't look at me! All I did was post Blizz' response to the complaints about Flex gear being higher ilvl that originally expected.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Promdates » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:17 am

Sagara wrote:Don't mind me, just an Hc raider, backing out reaaaaal slow.


Agreed. You'll catch me doing Flex/LFR to:
1) Get more valor
2) Play with cross-realm friends
3) To try out different strats/mechanics
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:07 pm

It seems some heroic raiders won't be happy until non-heroic players are on different servers with completely different content.

It amuses me that they want to push down content that "isn't their's" so far that no one would ever want to do it.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Teranoid » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:40 pm

This last page in a nutshell:

"Bbbut I wanna be bleeding edge and I don't wanna have to do flex modes!"
"Then don't do it"
"BBBUT MUH HEROIC RAIDS!"

I'm just waiting for the day when some guild blames losing a server first boss kill on not doing Flex or something equally as stupid.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:47 pm

Teranoid wrote:This last page in a nutshell:

"Bbbut I wanna be bleeding edge and I don't wanna have to do flex modes!"
"Then don't do it"
"BBBUT MUH HEROIC RAIDS!"

I'm just waiting for the day when some guild blames losing a server first boss kill on not doing Flex or something equally as stupid.


More like, the last 3 pages...
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Teranoid » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:19 pm

I haven't really paid much attention to be honest. I tend to tune out every time someone decides to present some sob story about being "forced" to do something in a video game.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:27 pm

Darielle wrote:Where is the player at fault for creating the incentive? He or she is just doing things as the game wants him/her to do.


The player is at fault for blaming Blizzard that they are "forced" to do something they don't want to do because the player is a weak willed gear whore.

That's not an ideal game environment. Ideal game environments are where people enjoy the things they want to do.


The things I want to do in game are the things I enjoy doing. I am sorry you do not have the same experience.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:28 pm

Teranoid wrote:I haven't really paid much attention to be honest. I tend to tune out every time someone decides to present some sob story about being "forced" to do something in a video game.


So I bought Assassins Creed 3 on the Steam sale. That is the worst fucking game I've played. 4 hours in and I've maybe played 30 minutes of game and watched 3 and a half hours of cutscenes. I would love for that game to force gameplay on me.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:33 pm

You know, i was thinking of picking up AC3, if only because I like the revolutionary war...
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:34 pm

Klaudandus wrote:You know, i was thinking of picking up AC3, if only because I like the revolutionary war...


Don't.
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