LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:20 pm

That might be due to poor trinket design itself, but then why fix it for LFR only, and not fix it across the board? Specifically requesting for it to be changed for LFR only makes no sense. Yes, it solves your issue... by stopping the fun for others without taking your own fun away.

I do agree that if the various trinkets were more in line with each other, this would be less of an issue, since if Trinket 3 and 4 are better than the LFR versions of Trinket 1 and 2, there's less chance of a reason to go back to LFR. However, people seem to like the gimmicky stuff that come from Trinkets, which is why they aren't simple stat sticks, and thus some trinkets come out more useful to certain classes than other trinkets.

At least I'm glad they did away with Hit and Exp trinkets in 5.4


Because the trinkets are a relic of mechanics they don't want to change. The reason for changing it on LFR/Flex is specifically so that these things aren't multiple loot options, yes. I don't think you can actually realistically argue that it takes the fun away unless you're suggesting that having a 502 Cha-Ye's drop or using a 502 Cha-Ye's just ISN'T FUN.

A Nalak level pug? Really? You expect LFRers aren't capable of tagging a World Boss? Now you're just being ridiculous.


I expect that LFR players are plenty capable of tagging a World Boss - they're also capable of Normal Jin'Rokh. I also expect actually being part of an organised Nalak group to be on par with an organised run of anything else which is relatively easy.

How would the hypothetical 523 pants be slightly more meaningful than 1 ilvl? They might be better itemized, or they might be crappier itemized. And since we're talking about an LFRer, he might not even know what has better itemization, and simply look at ilvl. And the old 522 item might have been upgraded to 530, but now the player might want to save his Valor for buying new 553 items, rather than upgrading 523 items to gain a single ilvl.


Because things like sockets and set bonuses are unambigious for better itemisation. Not only are 553 Valor items not even in planning, the item level of Valor is a consequence of inflated item level from LFR up anyway.

Do you think all HC raiders would be happy, if things were like: "Ok, guys, during this tier, you are only going to upgrade half of your slots. For the other half of your slots, the gear will be on par with gear from the previous tier." Because that's what nerfing LFR gear down to 518 or 523 comes down to.

Perhaps we should nerf SoO HC gear down to 541. It will be considered an upgrade, as you're not expected to have HC Thunderforged in every single slot


That IS how most Normal mode stuff is.

And we went over this when Klaud decided to try and play a Gotcha. Heroic SoO gear at 541 would be a good thing. This expansion has been inflated way too hard, as a consequence of both LFR and Thunderforging/Item Upgrade. Normal mode gear is being pitched at 31 item level above the previous tier's Normal mode gear. That is WAY too much.

We also seem to be glossing entirely over the statment made 5 times now - I didn't suggest LFR stuff at 518 or 523, and I didn't advocate for it. Stop acting as if it's something I want.

The neck is a totally different story. If you buy the neck during week 1, and then loot a 502 neck during week 2, then that's bad luck, but explainable. It's the same content. Not every item has to be an upgrade over the previously attained item. It's a little bit different when we move on to the next content, and items are weaker than items from the previous content that have been looted (or bought with VP) half a year ago. It would feel entirely pointless to run the new content, as it's not an upgrade.


Except you're ignoring that 522 Valor IS upgraded content, I mean pixels, over 502 stuff. Your own logic points to all of LFR loot beign wasted, because 80% of the slots have high ilvl options just from farming Valor.

That you're assuming players being too ignorant to know anything beyond item level is a bit silly as well.

So you want Blizzard to take away the incentive to do X, but you don't care that the incentive to do Y exists, because your guild won't be bothered with Y?


What I'm saying is that when X = 250 effort and Y = 100 effort, Y is preferable to X. More than halving the incentive for the added effort of asking a Hunter "You still need Renataki's?" is a beneficial solution, and that assumes complete worst case.

That is not what Blizzard is aiming it to be, if you read the blueposts about Flex. They go into specific detail explaining what will happen if you manage to down boss 1 and 2 during evening 1, and then bring in someone else for evening 2. Ergo, they're expecting not everyone will clear the wing during the evening they enter that wing.


That has to be the sillest Ergo ever. They have to go into how it will work because people are curious. They've explained just as mnuch for when LFR runs fail as well.
Flex mode is meant to be easier than Normal mode because they're decided that guilds and pugs going up on Normal mode aren't fitting their casual paradigm. Things like "people normally give up after 5 wipes". This is where Flex is intended to fill in, easier content than Normal, more organised than LFR, but at the end of the day, still not something where people and pugs actually go into Horridon and spend all night wiping.

Yep. To the player (or alt of raider) decked out in 502+valor gear, plus valor upgrades, even 528 as the ilvl for the new LFR is really kinda low, especially since you'll be able to get rare drops from the Timless Isle that are 535. To suggest LFR should be lower than 528 is a non-starter. And that's also why Flex has to be at 540, so while not a huge upgrade, everything from Flex is an upgrade over the older stuff and LFR stuff.


I'm not sure why you think Timeless offering 535 has any effect on LFR. LFR isn't supposed to be the be-all, end-all where everyone at lvl 90 goes. 528 certainly isn't low to the player "decked out" in 502 + Valor, because that player is still using mostly 502 anyway unless they think 4-sets and 502 trinkets are overrated, and they magically found the mythical Valor weapons, shields etc.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:23 am

Koatanga wrote:I really can't explain it any more simply. If you have a regular Flex raid, then you know when it is and which bosses you will likely clear. You may then run your LFR at any time in the week you want - before or after your Flex - for the bosses that your Flex will not cover.

If you don't have a Flex, then the situation is no different to now when you only run LFR except that you have the opportunity to get involved in a better class of raiding. If you only run LFR and are invited to a Flex, your incentive to go is to get invited to Flex again so you don't have to live in LFR-only land. The Flex team you were invited to can invite you again next week up until the point they have 25 or more regulars, because the raid numbers flex. That's the whole point of Flex raid.

Maybe there's no loot for you this week, but there will be loot for you next week, and the following, and it will be better loot than you could have got running LFR, which means you are in a better position than you are now. You would also get Valor for the Flex raid bosses you kill, and presumably be able to use bonus rolls.

Given Ghostcrawler's comments this won't be the way they go, so the whole thing is moot. Pity, I thought it was a decent solution that incentivized people to join Flex groups and form in-game bonds that would potentially lead to additional Normal (and eventually heroic?) raid teams and greater participation in raid content.


Because Ghostcrawler is saying the same thing as I was saying. This "solution" affects the game for those running LFR and Flex, and therefor is not a proper solution.



And Darielle, if you think joining a quick Nalak pug is the same as joining a ToT run, then I'm not going to bother keeping this discussion up. Have fun thinking your way, apparently no single argument can shed some light on things, so I'll stop trying.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:33 am

Koatanga wrote:
Nooska wrote:This is senseless. No Really.

To fix a problem for heroic raiders you limit people that are running flex and lfr and say "now you have to deal with akward planning, and can't run the casual/easy content designed for you when its convenient to do so casually".

People, please remember flex and LFR does NOT occupy the same slot for people around, except maybe for heroic raiders. Loot lockiout of flex and lfr (either or) would be a HUGE nerf to the casual/easy groups/players.

If you are progressing through flex (and if you are clearing it immediately you should probably step up to normal), you need to have access to lfr for upgrades. Heroic raiders having a problem with too many places to get gear is not an excuse to remove the choices from the easy end of the spectrum.

If people are only running LFR and Flex, then we have to assume that currently they are only running LFR and not normal.

No, we don't

If flex had been announced and introduced with 5.2, Our raid team could very well still be alive, due to moving down from normal to flex. Both to actually progress - our team, while having some excellent players, was overall mediocre at best - but also to be able to exoand the roster while making sense, so we didn't have to sit the good players that got some loot early, so they could perform, for not so good players with lower loot level, so we could gear them up.

I actually see Flex as something normal groups may move down to if they are having trouble with normals and not getting to that first HC boss (either downed or as a possibility they choose to not take).

I don't disagree with the rest of your posts conclusions, but I do disgree with your premise, making the conclusion erroneous.

HUGE nerf might have been overstating it, but with all the hyperbole floating around in this thread, that was a pretty mild case - regardless, to fix a problem with heroic raiders, you want to nerf the usefulness of LFR or Flex for lower tier raiders, by giving them, that have the least experiece with such, the need to plan out a week very speicifically.
Please, also remember that while it may be very easy for experienced/skilled (either or) raiders to foresee what goes down, at the levels of flex/lfr the raiders very likely won't be consisten, so its not in any way easy to foresee what will go down in any given week of flex.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:47 am

Thels wrote:You yourself are a clear example of how extra work can lead to a burnout.
I’m brilliant example that people are stupid. I was very stupid but I got smarter.

Thels wrote:because the incentive was there.
There will always be incentives to do things and there will be always incentives to do stupid, harmful things. Unless you somehow cure humanity it’s tendency to do stupid stuff or convinse that ALL incentives should be removed from game, someone somewhere will do stupid stuff because said incentive. Example: Charlie’s brother Darek got burned out simply by running LFR and nothing else. Incentive to run it was there, loot and legendary questchain. You can change LFR to any difficult you want, heck it’s fitting for most activity wow has to offer.

Thels wrote:You only learned from your mistake after making said mistake.
And I hopefully keep learning from all those mistakes that are bound to come. To me learning from ones mistake is to be human.

Thels wrote:Is it that hard that blizzard wants to prevent people from making that mistake.
Yes. No. Yes and no. People progressing Flex might feel that they need to run LFR for sake of Progress. Normal mode raider might feel that they need to run LFR and Flex for sake of Progress. HC raiders certainly feels like they need to raid LFR,Flex and sometimes previous HC tiers for sake of PROGRESS. Can you claim that certainly there are no such players and there will be no such players? What about their incentives? What about their burning out? I’m all against locking content on bubble wheter it’s HC,flex,lfr or normal even while it could lead to buffing of LFR,Flex or normal and by that getting nearer to rewards of HC modes. Players should have choise to do them, even if it means that they will burn themselves. My solution: don’t be stupid.

Thels wrote:This discussion is about people burning themselves out on too much content that'll help them progress. Not about who's to blame for it, but about how it could be prevented.

This one is really easy me to answer but my solution doesn’t seem really to please many. Don’t be stupid.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:31 am

Dion wrote:
theckhd wrote:Were all of those players "too stupid" to stop doing stuff they don't like?

Yes.

Dion wrote:
Thels wrote:You yourself are a clear example of how extra work can lead to a burnout.
I’m brilliant example that people are stupid. I was very stupid but I got smarter.


No, you're a prime example of the mentality of a large chunk of the raiding base. Not just at heroic levels, but even at normal levels. The only difference is that you've somehow twisted "dedication to the team" and "personal responsibility" into people being "stupid." Which, frankly, is ... stupid.

If your soccer coach asks you to practice for 3 hours a day, and everyone on your team does that, are you "stupid" for doing it too? Even when you start to burn out on soccer as a result? If that's really your stance, then there's no use in arguing with you. You live in an alternate reality. Here in the real world, being part of a team means agreeing to and shouldering certain responsibilities.

At some point, the player that's burning out comes to a decision: "am I dedicated enough to this sport/team to continue this process." And oftentimes the answer is no, at which point they tend to quit. If you don't see why this is a concern for Blizzard, then again, there's no use in arguing to you. Blizzard cannot magically make their users "less stupid." They can (and do) adapt to gamer psychology and tweak the reward/effort structure appropriately to minimize subscriber losses.

Dion wrote:
theckhd wrote:Was it their fault that they didn't like doing daily quests?

I don’t like red color. Why there is red color? Please fix. Also, lightsabers seems not to working as in movies, please fix reality. If I call 911 and state that: “I don’t like holding my hand in fire!” I’m pretty sure what answer I get.


That's not just a strawman, it's an incredibly poorly-constructed one. If you're trying to convince me that you really are stupid, you're doing a good job.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:09 am

I'd say we have hit reductio ad absurdum levels.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:19 am

Klaudandus wrote:I'd say we have hit reductio ad absurdum levels.


This is a forum on the internet: it ain't over til we get a Nazi/Hitler comparison. Though I'd be willing to accept a Republican/Democrat analogy too.

;)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:24 am

LFR Gear will come with a blue armband from now on, meanwhile Heroic Raiders get a title called Ubermensch.

Does that work?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:34 am

Klaudandus wrote:LFR Gear will come with a blue armband from now on, meanwhile Heroic Raiders get a title called Ubermensch.

Does that work?


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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sagara » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:41 am

Klaudandus wrote:LFR Gear will come with a blue armband from now on, meanwhile Heroic Raiders get a title called Ubermensch.

Does that work?


Wait, what does City of Heroes have to do with this?

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:38 pm

theckhd wrote:No, you're a prime example of the mentality of a large chunk of the raiding base. Not just at heroic levels, but even at normal levels. The only difference is that you've somehow twisted "dedication to the team" and "personal responsibility" into people being "stupid." Which, frankly, is ... stupid.

Fancy words, fancy! Shiiiiny! So very shiny! I doesn’t affect what’s inside though as I still calling doing stuff you don’t like stupid. Don’t be stupid, do stuff you like as you got choise. Multiple ones

theckhd wrote:If your soccer coach asks you to practice for 3 hours a day, and everyone on your team does that, are you "stupid" for doing it too?

If you want to do it, do it. If you don’t like doing it, don’t do it. Don’t do stuff you don’t like, don’t be stupid.

theckhd wrote:Even when you start to burn out on soccer as a result?

Don’t be stupid. Don't do stuff you don't like. Movie quote:”You dum dum”.

theckhd wrote:You live in an alternate reality.

Yey! Theckhd fired his lazors and beamed meh to diffrent dimension.I hope that here explantion why gravity works be more than hypotesis? Selling point: Lightsabres! Which color I get? I want green, can I can I can I can I?

theckhd wrote:Here in the real world, being part of a team means agreeing to and shouldering certain responsibilities.

Ah, so being in team means one must not have fun? And do stuff they don’t like. So those raiders that don’t run LFR for sake of imaginary Progress are inresponsible guildies? So when certain guildie can’t take it anymore and quits, it’s not his fault he exhausted himself doing stuff he didn’t like, it’s Blizzards and needs to be fixed. My fix: Don’t be stupid.

theckhd wrote:At some point, the player that's burning out comes to a decision: "am I dedicated enough to this sport/team to continue this process." And oftentimes the answer is no, at which point they tend to quit.

Let’s try binary as in that contrast is biggest:
Doing stuff you don’t like repeatedly: 0
Doing stuff you like: 1
Stopping doing stuff you don’t like: 1
Doing stuff you don’t like and getting burned: 0
Doing stuff you don’t like, getting burned and complain that Blizzard forces you: -1. There’s picture in here alternative reality where Picard uses all of his 8 hands to facepalm, and slamming his heads, two out of three, against the deck. You might have diffrent picture but I hope you get the idea.

Case study: Worldie, Nikachelle and Sagara.
Worldie transfered servers and changed guild. Using said quote: "am I dedicated enough to this sport/team to continue this process." Your judgement:Lack of dedication. Me:Smart, stopped doing stuff that he didn’t like.
Nikachelle giving up guild she ran and quiting wow. Your judgement: Lack of dedication. Me:Stopped doing stuff she didn’t like aka smart. Quiting wow as she would not have fun in:Brilliant.
Sagara:Giving up guild leadership. Your judgement:Lack of dedication. Me:Smart, stopped doing stuff he didn’t like. Continues to play wow while having fun(?):Smart. Doing stuff he doesn’t like(?):Stupid. Don’t be stupid.

theckhd wrote:If you don't see why this is a concern for Blizzard, then again, there's no use in arguing to you.

Definately problem for Blizzard. They want to keep all customers while getting new ones.

theckhd wrote:They can (and do) adapt to gamer psychology and tweak the reward/effort structure appropriately to minimize subscriber losses.

Yes, indeed. It’s in their best intrests. Yet players doing stupid things isn’t Blizzards fault, Blizzard doesn’t make choises for you, you do. Changes aren’t needed as there isn’t problem big enough. Don’t do stuff you don't like, do stuff you like.Blizz fixing things doesn’t make stupid people smart. Don't be stupid.

theckhd wrote:Blizzard cannot magically make their users "less stupid."

Yes. I bet they would have used this long time ago if it was possible. Yet when told that players should do what they like, not chasing imaginary Progress and beating their chest that they are FORCED to do stuff they don’t like, suddenly it goes along lines: Blizz will fix it. I have no selfcontrol and I must do stuff I don’t like.

theckhd wrote:That's not just a strawman, it's an incredibly poorly-constructed one. If you're trying to convince me that you really are stupid, you're doing a good job.

I don’t like strawmen. I like scarecrows more! Same stuffing inside so I think I pick that one up. In here alternative reality they are pretty cool! Lazors and all that.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby cdan » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:01 pm

I don't have a horse in this race, but now I have a headache. Is that fair?

Can we agree that if the (frankly pointless) argument continues that the protagonists make their points more succinctly? :)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:36 pm

Dion wrote:
theckhd wrote:No, you're a prime example of the mentality of a large chunk of the raiding base. Not just at heroic levels, but even at normal levels. The only difference is that you've somehow twisted "dedication to the team" and "personal responsibility" into people being "stupid." Which, frankly, is ... stupid.

Fancy words, fancy! Shiiiiny! So very shiny! I doesn’t affect what’s inside though as I still calling doing stuff you don’t like stupid. Don’t be stupid, do stuff you like as you got choise. Multiple ones


Dude, your retorts are starting to get disrespectful. Theck is being fairly civil with his argument, can you please return that courtesy and do the same?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:51 pm

Put down the shovel, Dion.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Xfighter » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:16 pm

I've read all of the posts so far, and can agree with aspects of both sides of the argument as a "heroic" raider myself.


The part that some people seem to be glossing over the fine print of is this:
Obviously people will head out of LFR to Flex with pugs, assuming they don't have a guild to run it with. You then draw the conclusion that because they found a flex group that is consistent weekly, they may eventually move up and try normals. But you completely forget that while some groups will manage this, other groups will be completely blocked from this move due to one reason - Flex is cross-realmable. Normals are not. I reckon that a large chunk of "casuals" have made friends while doing things like LFRs, Dungeons, etc and with battletag kept in contact with them. Now when flex comes out, sure you might get into a run with everyone on the same server, but likewise it's equally likely at this stage in the game that at least a few from that flex team (assuming around 10-11 people in the group) will be friends of friends, or friends on other servers. This blocks that group of flex raiders from ever making the leap into normals, with the same people from their flex run, if the cross-realm aspect is what made their run able to happen.

It's also likely that if people are running with them through btag long enough in flex, that even if they COULD go normal by dropping a few people - they wouldn't because they have formed friendships with the rest of the regular group. I have many friends who are casual and stick to the same guild/group of people, despite the fact that they HAVE the time and the SKILL to do so much better. For them it's all about who they do it with, and not the content. Hell even some just stick to casualness because of the stigma's mentioned in nearly ever post here - the pressure of not letting close friends down, regardless of the difficulty level being explored - Flex included (with a consistent group, obviously not a complete pug changing week in and out)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:42 pm

Xfighter wrote:I've read all of the posts so far, and can agree with aspects of both sides of the argument as a "heroic" raider myself.


The part that some people seem to be glossing over the fine print of is this:
Obviously people will head out of LFR to Flex with pugs, assuming they don't have a guild to run it with. You then draw the conclusion that because they found a flex group that is consistent weekly, they may eventually move up and try normals. But you completely forget that while some groups will manage this, other groups will be completely blocked from this move due to one reason - Flex is cross-realmable. Normals are not. I reckon that a large chunk of "casuals" have made friends while doing things like LFRs, Dungeons, etc and with battletag kept in contact with them. Now when flex comes out, sure you might get into a run with everyone on the same server, but likewise it's equally likely at this stage in the game that at least a few from that flex team (assuming around 10-11 people in the group) will be friends of friends, or friends on other servers. This blocks that group of flex raiders from ever making the leap into normals, with the same people from their flex run, if the cross-realm aspect is what made their run able to happen.

It's also likely that if people are running with them through btag long enough in flex, that even if they COULD go normal by dropping a few people - they wouldn't because they have formed friendships with the rest of the regular group. I have many friends who are casual and stick to the same guild/group of people, despite the fact that they HAVE the time and the SKILL to do so much better. For them it's all about who they do it with, and not the content. Hell even some just stick to casualness because of the stigma's mentioned in nearly ever post here - the pressure of not letting close friends down, regardless of the difficulty level being explored - Flex included (with a consistent group, obviously not a complete pug changing week in and out)


Need to factor in the virtual realms, as that may expand the pool of players you can do normals with, need to wait and see just how the pairings for virtual realms turn out.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:40 pm

Xfighter wrote:I've read all of the posts so far, and can agree with aspects of both sides of the argument as a "heroic" raider myself.


The part that some people seem to be glossing over the fine print of is this:
Obviously people will head out of LFR to Flex with pugs, assuming they don't have a guild to run it with. You then draw the conclusion that because they found a flex group that is consistent weekly, they may eventually move up and try normals. But you completely forget that while some groups will manage this, other groups will be completely blocked from this move due to one reason - Flex is cross-realmable. Normals are not. I reckon that a large chunk of "casuals" have made friends while doing things like LFRs, Dungeons, etc and with battletag kept in contact with them. Now when flex comes out, sure you might get into a run with everyone on the same server, but likewise it's equally likely at this stage in the game that at least a few from that flex team (assuming around 10-11 people in the group) will be friends of friends, or friends on other servers. This blocks that group of flex raiders from ever making the leap into normals, with the same people from their flex run, if the cross-realm aspect is what made their run able to happen.

It's also likely that if people are running with them through btag long enough in flex, that even if they COULD go normal by dropping a few people - they wouldn't because they have formed friendships with the rest of the regular group. I have many friends who are casual and stick to the same guild/group of people, despite the fact that they HAVE the time and the SKILL to do so much better. For them it's all about who they do it with, and not the content. Hell even some just stick to casualness because of the stigma's mentioned in nearly ever post here - the pressure of not letting close friends down, regardless of the difficulty level being explored - Flex included (with a consistent group, obviously not a complete pug changing week in and out)

Any such people as you have talked about would not be running normal or heroic currently. They would only be running LFR. This means they would only be getting one loot per boss per week. Nothing would change for them except for the possibility of getting better quality gear in a Flex raid than they would be limited to in LFR. I think Flex should be looked at as an alternative to LFR, not an addition. Casual players may not even have sufficient time to run LFR and Flex on their toons.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Xfighter » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:03 pm

It doesn't hold much relevance, but I'm just pointing out that the whole concept of Flex groups moving into normal may not be as simple as some are saying it would be. So just locking it to only one of Flex/LFR plus normal/heroic isn't a universal solution, as it WOULD take content away from Flex. Nothing would be lost from current LFR people though.


I still agree that something needs to be done, but also agree a lockout can't work as it's not as cut and dry as 1 personal loot/1 normal loot per boss per week. I can agree with Thecks idea on giving an incentive NOT to run them in some form, but also agree that their current model for success in groups is for normal/heroic raiders to be in there mixed in with 100% LFR-people. So in fact something does need to change in the design, in some form, moving forward into the next expansion.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:30 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Put down the shovel, Dion.

B-B-B-B-But the ditches! Without them the w-w-w-w-water will seep in to the ground!

Sabindeus wrote:Dude, your retorts are starting to get disrespectful. Theck is being fairly civil with his argument, can you please return that courtesy and do the same?
Fair enough. I’ll give him apology also if he took offence. Lazors too much too? It’s just that he’s laser physicist. That’s on par with astronaut. Imagine scene where Theckhd and his significant other has a child or childs and parents go to school speaking about their jobs. Classroom is noisy, children don’t pay any attention. “Hello, children. My name is Theckhd and I’m laser physicist. Instant attention grab. Every children knows lasers. Now they consentrate so intensively that soon their desks catch fire or melt. “I study lasers. I build them.” Their children will be kings or queens in eyes of other children. Poor policemen and firefighters dads and moms will crying in corner.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:47 am

Dion: As I said, it doesn't matter who is to blame for people burning themselves out, the people or the game. Blizzard is not gonna be like: "Oh, wait, we lost more people because they burned themselves out. Less money in the pocket now." "Oh, doesn't matter, because they were stupid people anyhow, we don't want their money."

No, Blizzard is not that stupid. They want people to keep playing the game and giving them money, so if they can prevent people from burning themselves out, they will do so.



Xfighter: They might not step up as a group, but some of them might step up individually, either in addition to the Flex group, or at the cost of the Flex group, because they want to move on in the game.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:37 am

Koatanga wrote:Any such people as you have talked about would not be running normal or heroic currently. They would only be running LFR. This means they would only be getting one loot per boss per week. Nothing would change for them except for the possibility of getting better quality gear in a Flex raid than they would be limited to in LFR. I think Flex should be looked at as an alternative to LFR, not an addition. Casual players may not even have sufficient time to run LFR and Flex on their toons.

"Casual" playes have plenty of time to run lfr and flex on one or more toons. "Casual" is nto a part of this, its level of raiding we are talking about here.

Also, you keep saying "nothing would change for them", and keep ignoring points to the contrary.
They would be locked out of 1 of the 2 possibilities for them;
Either:
1) Progress in flex
OR
2) You may run LFR

You may also run LFR after you are done with flex, meaning you can only run lfr after you have flexed, leaving you with very little time to do it.

You are punishing lower tier raiders for the problem that heroic raiders are having - apart from not being very respectful to the majority of players (heroic raiders is a minority, still - or rather, even more so), it is obviously not something Blizzard would contemplate, exactly because
a) it doesn't solve the problem and
b) it nerfs the possibilities of the ones that flex is specifically introduced for.

You are basically going "yeah, okay, introduce flex, but make sure that the target audience can't get it in addition to something else, its only heroic raiders that should have it accessible as a buff*"

*Flex would be a buff to heroic raiders under the idea you are a proponet for, in that it would effectively give them higher level lfr loot (difficulty for a heroic team would be comparable to running lfr, and they would not have to deal with randoms).
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:10 am

Thels wrote:Dion: As I said, it doesn't matter who is to blame for people burning themselves out, the people or the game. Blizzard is not gonna be like: "Oh, wait, we lost more people because they burned themselves out. Less money in the pocket now." "Oh, doesn't matter, because they were stupid people anyhow, we don't want their money."


I can agree with this completely.

What I don’t agree:
-Locking content. (You can only do HC modes,normal, LFR or Flex. This includes if grouping idea like LFR+HC and Normal+Flex. Even if it would boost LFR,Normal or Flex and close some of the gap between them and HC modes. I would approve if they moved normal and heroic on separate lock.)
-Getting loot you are not entitled.
-Nerffing LFR,Flex or normal mode loot because so called incentive. I argue that said incentive is either nonexistant, irrelevantantly small or complete psychological illusion. There are exeptions, like Method raider getting one for progress in strange cases like if he has to bring an alt to progress run.
-Stating that you are forced to do content you don’t like.

I don’t think those are flaws in game design. I find them flaws in human nature, player flaws. I don’t hold any illusion that if, say 1 million subscribers suddenly stop paying and state that they don’t like being forced doing content they don’t like, there wouldn’t be any changes in game design.

Thels wrote:No, Blizzard is not that stupid. They want people to keep playing the game and giving them money, so if they can prevent people from burning themselves out, they will do so.

And at the moment, they are fine even when some of the raiders complain that they are forced to do now LFR and Flex. While they said it’s not perfect position and things could change, they are happy for now. That being said, I want, at the moment, what Blizzard wants. I want people to play this game. Therefore I keep saying that there isn’t need to stick bamboo under your nails as you can grab cold beer and have fun doing stuff you like.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:15 am

I don’t think this will change any time soon but I must say that I sympathize with what you’re saying, This isn’t a “special snowflake syndrome”. Sure, there might be a little bit of that involved, but it’s mostly a matter of perception, and perception is a very important factor in driving motivation.

If a colour is associated with rarity, that colour becomes important by itself, and that’s something that only the most old school players probably understand, still feel, or miss.

What I’m saying is, there was a time when having 1 single purple item was something absolutely amazing, they were not only the very best items but they were also incredibly rare.

That rarity was a consequence of a combination of many things:
Raids were hard to get into.
Only a very small minority was actually able to raid.
Players were much less skilled than they are nowadays, so killing raid bosses was done at a much slower pace. Content was also updated much less frequently.
Apart from the very first 40man raids (Molten Core, Ony), the chance of getting any epic items at all was incredibly small (world drop BoEs)

So the colour purple meant two things, extreme power and rarity. But the game soon evolved, more raids were introduced, and all these new items that came with it were epic.

Nowadays purple means power, rarity hmm… not so much, maybe at the very beginning of an expansion.

But you see, that’s exactly the same that happened in vanilla, the only difference was that raids were a lot less accessible and less diverse (so, less overall chance of getting raid drops), and the patch turnaround with new raid content was much slower, which means, less availability of epic items. There were also no catch up mechanics set in place, so players had to go through all the clearly defined gearing paths of green-blue-purple (quests, 5man, 10man, 40man), and also follow a progression path with raids ZG/MC, Ony, BwL, Naxx.

We don’t want to restrict raiding again to <1% of the player base, and that’s the only way to go back to purple being rare again. Reducing LFR gear to blue wouldn’t make a big difference, there’s plenty of other sources of high ilvl gear that would need to be changed to blue, and even if we did that and only normal + heroic would drop epics, we would never have the same level of rarity as in the old days, content is just so much more diverse, more regularly updated and players are way more skilled.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:01 am

Since we've been digging trenches all over the place here, I think we've lost sight of the battlefield. So, question to the HC raiding elites here, which is it?

1) I don't have time to run LFR/Flex to get extra gear I need
2) It's beneath me to run LFR/Flex
3) The LFR/Flex loot is too good (or they shouldn't have any at all)

No, you can't pick 1 and 3. Gotta pick just one.

So if you picked #1, please propose a solution that fixes that for you, without impacting the rest of the playerbase.

If you picked #2, get over yourself.

If you picked #3, then either you need to get over yourself, or are you really saying that by 6-8 weeks into SoO, you are still in need of gear from LFR (when the final wing of SoO opens)? If you are that unlucky with RNG, wouldn't you welcome another source for getting that gear, rather than burning the bridges behind you so that you are screwed because you have no other path to gear?

And if burnout is the real issue, then that's a time/effort/reward issue, not an issue with the game. There's no way Blizz can possibly balance that without lockouts, which everyone here seems to be against.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:39 am

Dion wrote:Fair enough. I’ll give him apology also if he took offence. Lazors too much too? It’s just that he’s laser physicist. That’s on par with astronaut. Imagine scene where Theckhd and his significant other has a child or childs and parents go to school speaking about their jobs. Classroom is noisy, children don’t pay any attention. “Hello, children. My name is Theckhd and I’m laser physicist. Instant attention grab. Every children knows lasers. Now they consentrate so intensively that soon their desks catch fire or melt. “I study lasers. I build them.” Their children will be kings or queens in eyes of other children. Poor policemen and firefighters dads and moms will crying in corner.


I have to admit this made me chuckle
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