LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:38 pm

Dion wrote:My problems with this:
1. HC raiders entitled to loot they didn't earn. (It should then work other way around too, so LFR runners have chance per boss kills to earn loot they didn't earn, up to HC loot. HC raiders could get roll say lfr,flex,normal and hc for bonus but this would leave loot inflation so I don't think this is good for either side)
2.Fixing something that isn't broken. Really, it's not problem in game, it's in players. If you happen to be stupid enough to not realize that burned out player doesn't raid and doing things you don't want gets you burned, then I don't think Blizzard should try to save your ass. Also, how about organising guild LFR runs?


I'm a little bit baffled by both of these points. For the first: exactly how do you quantify "loot that they didn't earn?" Certainly defeating a Heroic boss takes far more organization and effort than LFR, which is why it rewards better loot. I don't think you could successfully argue otherwise.

So, given that Heroic drops more & better loot, what makes you think that there is a specific amount of "more/better" that's appropriate? Why is adding a bunch of LFR drops, most of which will just be vendored anyway, somehow "loot they didn't earn."

To put it in perspective, there was no such thing as Thunderforged loot in 5.0. It was added to solve a number of problems, one of which was to give certain raiders more/better loot. Was that loot that they didn't earn too? Or is it just possible that the amount of "more/better" is basically arbitrary, and that by implementing Thunderforged loot Blizzard has admitted to undershooting/undervaluing in the past?

The second point is even more illogical to me. Players burning out is a real problem, not just for high-end guilds, but for middle-of-the-road guilds and by extension for Blizzard (burnout = subscriber loss). If you don't believe that, then perhaps you may want to revisit some of the design decisions that were made going into Cataclysm. One of the reasons for shared 10/25 lockouts was precisely that - player burnout. And while it may not impact you personally when a guild like vodka/Exodus collapses, but it does have ripple effects on the game as a whole.

I can understand the resistance to ideas that devalue LFR significantly, like reducing loot quality or removing certain items. Even though I'm a hardcore raider, I'm against those things as well. Partly because I recognize and understand the part they play in the game's overall design (i.e. thinking as a designer rather than a player) and partly because I actually run LFR (and soon, Flex) on alts fairly regularly.

But I don't really understand resistance to ideas that preserve LFR, leaving it essentially untouched, while also trying to solve a problem that a different part of the player base is having. It just feels selfish to me, because when it boils down to it you're basically arguing about rewards for content that you are clearly not participating in, regardless of the reason.

I mean, consider these two statements:
LFR Raider: Heroic raiders shouldn't get free LFR loot just for clearing heroic mode!
Heroic Raider: LFR isn't real raiding, LFR raiders shouldn't even get epic loot!

It's essentially the same sentiment: "This other group of players that I'm not part of doesn't deserve stuff." And it's sort of nonsensical for me to see it keep popping up in this thread coming from otherwise seemingly-intelligent people.

As an aside, I do find it sort of ironic that there's this strong backlash against heroic raiders for not wanting to run LFR though. Wailing and gnashing of teeth over the fact that these players - who are pretty clearly well above the skill level at which that content becomes somewhat mundane, repetitive, and boring - would prefer not to have an incentive to run meaningless and mundane content.

Meanwhile, the outcry from players of all skill levels, including a large chunk of players that struggle through normal-mode content, has been about daily quests. "Why do we have to do this boring, repetitive, mundane content Blizzard? All we want to do is raid!" Again, it's the exact same argument: "I don't want to do content that feels like busywork and beneath me." If you've ever complained about daily quests (and looking over the posters in this thread, I think I can safely say that's almost all of you), you should probably be more sympathetic to the way heroic raiders feel about having an incentive to run LFR.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:42 pm

If killing a heroic boss is more work than killing an LFR boss it is also more work than killing a Normal or Flex mode boss so why limit it to just LFR loot. A heroic boss should drop 6 Heroic items, 6 normal items, 6 flex items and 6 LFR items.

If you've ever complained about daily quests (and looking over the posters in this thread, I think I can safely say that's almost all of you), you should probably be more sympathetic to the way heroic raiders feel about having an incentive to run LFR.


Lucky me. My answers to both situations is pretty much the same!
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:44 pm

halabar wrote:
Thels wrote:
halabar wrote:Thels: You are misunderstanding my loot lockout idea. My proposal is that it be grouped as LFR/Flex/Normal and Normal/HC. The minute someone kills an heroic boss, they are locked out of LFR/Flex loot, and are locked out of HC if they run LFR/Flex.

It's a far more equitable solution than pushing LFR and Flex gear down in either ilvl or itemization or just availablilty.

Any other discussion on the ilvl, power, procs, bling, or other issues is just going to be a further rehash of the age-old argument of why do noobs get gear that's similar to mine.


It would be better than locking out everything separately, but there are still some issues with it:

1) It would fix the issue for people that are doing HC from the very start. However, those that take a few weeks to progress through normal still have the incentive to run both Flex and LFR on top of Normal. Why no for HC raiders, but yes for (still) Normal raiders?

2) It would discourage guilds from starting on the first HC boss. If you cleared the normal instance, you need to choose between trying to kill the first HC boss, knowing that people could still use a few Flex items to gear up, or just clearing the instance on normal a couple more times.

3) Say I would want to run Flex with a couple of my friends, just for fun. I can't, because killing a single boss in Flex means I won't be able to get any loot from the HC bosses, even if I can't use any gear from Flex.


1) Because the normal raiders aren't the ones crying about having to raid too much. :-)

2) True.

3) Also true.

Remember, this is the solution to solve the HC "woe is me, I have too much content that I HAVE to do" QQ. It's a better solution that LFR/Flex being gutted or removed from the game to comfort the poor HC raiders that are being worked to the bone.

The HC raiders are the one crying about LFR and Flex being too good. Let's lock them out of it, problem solved.


It's not really just the HC raiders. I know plenty of people that are in normal raiding, and they also know that the LFR loot is helping them, and they also would prefer not to be forced to run HC every week.

Also, not every HC raider hates Flex. Given, it's not that likely that a HC raider really enjoys LFR on his main, but there certainly will be HC raiders that enjoy a Flex run every now and then with some casual friends, without worrying about being locked out to their HC run.

I can understand the need of HC players to farm Flex/LFR. Heck, it's the only reason you'll see me in LFR, and I really don't enjoy LFR one tiny bit, so having a solution that would remove that incentive would be totally awesome.

However, that solution should not come at the cost of fun for others, and so far, almost all solutions posted here have been that.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:54 pm

Flex wrote:
If you've ever complained about daily quests (and looking over the posters in this thread, I think I can safely say that's almost all of you), you should probably be more sympathetic to the way heroic raiders feel about having an incentive to run LFR.


Lucky me. My answers to both situations is pretty much the same!


I do agree that it is an issue.

I do not agree that it is an issue for heroic raiders only. While the average normal raider might be less serious about things, a lot of normal raiders are also doing LFR for the extra chances of loot.

I do also not agree with solutions that would either fix or reduce the issue, if those solutions would create a bunch of problems for the other people.



Flex wrote:If killing a heroic boss is more work than killing an LFR boss it is also more work than killing a Normal or Flex mode boss so why limit it to just LFR loot. A heroic boss should drop 6 Heroic items, 6 normal items, 6 flex items and 6 LFR items.


If you're killing a boss on heroic, then you can't kill the boss on normal during the same week, so there is zero reason to hand out normal loot on heroic kills.

The boss could drop both LFR and Flex loot, but that would be a bit of an overkill. Also, WoW is a game where time investment is rewarded, usually with loot (or a chance on loot at the least). You run LFR, you get loot.

The problem started to arise where Normal/HC raiders needed to run not 1 but 2 extra copies of their raid...
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:55 pm

Blizzard wrote:Greetings!
In here Blizzard we appreciate and admire our fantastic and passionate players and fanbase. We also take their well-being seriously so we are very proud to announce new service that takes one step forward: BlizzCare and it's new staff BlizzMommas! At the moment we need to really focus on one group of players as they have most of the problems, and we are sad to state that they are also our most passionate players. The hardmode raiders (henceforth the Players) :(

Healthy Mind(tm)
We know that many HC raiders have quit because they have burned out doing stuff they don't like as they percieve that progress demands so. This is why we have made mandatory mental training and testing before we let them log in. Mommas have been fully trained in psychology so they can soothe Players temper-tantrums when possible, but also can temporarily or permanently suspend them. Each Player needs to fill in questionare about their mood and mental health. Mommas will then evaluate Players and make judgement if they are mentaly fit to play or are they in that possition that their fragile mind can't take it anymore and is danger to suffer mental breakdown. Mommas will intervene and soothe them and if that doesn't help they will suspend them before they will cause grief to themself and others around them. Players also must take part in mental training program that teaches them how to resist certain temptations like raiding LFR while hating it. This will also help them immeasurably as they can't resist most temptations outside game as well. As Players are in social groups called Guilds, they also have possibility for group counselling and meditation training.

Healthy Mind Deserves Fitting Body(tm)
Players must here on take 15 minute breaks to strecth for every hour they play. System automaticly logs them out of the game and our Mommas watch that they strech properly via webcam. Playtime is earned via workout that Mommas watch so Players don't cheat! For every one hour they exercise Players get to spend 1½ hour in game. No cheating on those squats! Players also need mark their meals to online webservice so Mommas can keep on eye on how Players eat. If Mommas feel that Players are cheating, they will make a housecall and check Players fridge. If Players don't have webcam or refuse to comply their account can and will be closed as stated in ToS. We take this matter very seriously.

Gameplay changes(tm)
We here Blizzard admit that sometimes even after our best of help, there are Players that can't be helped. Therefore we must take some kind of action ingame. We are convinsed that best action is that beginning at 5.4 Heroic modes drop only cosmetic loot for as long as that tier is current content. After next tier is released, we remove chance to get that cosmetic gear and that said heroic will drop gear with stats but new current content hardmodes drop cosmetic gear. This is to prevent that Players feel mandatory to run LFR&Flex for gear.

This will be announced soon, it's that great big unannounced feature that ships with 5.4!
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:01 pm

Thels wrote:If you're killing a boss on heroic, then you can't kill the boss on normal during the same week, so there is zero reason to hand out normal loot on heroic kills.


I need to work on my snark since
For the first: exactly how do you quantify "loot that they didn't earn?"
is perhaps the most easily answered question in this thread.

The only way I'd support adding LFR chance in heroic kills is if it replaced the normal bonus roll. Say you have a 10% on a normal bonus roll, the LFR bonus would be a 50% chance of a usable item.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:10 pm

theckhd wrote: Certainly defeating a Heroic boss takes far more organization and effort than LFR, which is why it rewards better loot. I don't think you could successfully argue otherwise.

Then they should run LFR. Or not. Totaly up for them to deside. Guild could also make guild run for it.

theckhd wrote:The second point is even more illogical to me. Players burning out is a real problem, not just for high-end guilds, but for middle-of-the-road guilds and by extension for Blizzard (burnout = subscriber loss). If you don't believe that, then perhaps you may want to revisit some of the design decisions that were made going into Cataclysm. One of the reasons for shared 10/25 lockouts was precisely that - player burnout. And while it may not impact you personally when a guild like vodka/Exodus collapses, but it does have ripple effects on the game as a whole.


It is really a problem. Not in game though as it's in the players. There is nobody forcing them to do stuff they don't like. There is no gun held at their head. If said player is stupid enough not to realize, that burned out player makes no progress and they should stop doing stuff they don't like or stuff that burns them up, whose fault it is?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:51 pm

Theck, I agree with most of what you're saying, but it should be noted that most of the reaction from the LFR/Flex camp is reaction to suggested napalming of LFR/Flex.

One solution to all this mess is to actually make another lockout, separating Normal from HC. HC raiders could then run normal to get the items they need, and not have to sink to LFR and Flex. Although, I could really care less if they used the bonus roll system to grant LFR loot in HC.

It could also be potentially solved with some other system to allow players to fill key slots, but I doubt Blizz will go that way as well. After all, if you've filled all your slots, and killed the boss, time to play something on your PS4 for the next 5 months, amirighte?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:57 pm

Yeah, I agree that solutions that napalm LFR/Flex aren't reasonable. Whatever solution is deployed (if any) needs to leave LFR and Flex unmolested.

<edit> I should add that sharing lockouts is basically a no-go for technical reasons, at least for 5.4. And while it "fixes" the problem, it also introduces extra barriers. There are social aspects to that - e.g. what if a heroic raider wants to help a friend's guild with their LFR/Flex raid?

Also note that pretty much every heroic guild will be running Flex for a few weeks to do meta achievements so they don't have to bother sacrificing heroic progression to them.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:08 pm

Dion wrote:
theckhd wrote: Certainly defeating a Heroic boss takes far more organization and effort than LFR, which is why it rewards better loot. I don't think you could successfully argue otherwise.

Then they should run LFR. Or not. Totaly up for them to deside. Guild could also make guild run for it.

That... isn't a counterpoint... In fact that doesn't even make sense with regards to the quoted passage.

Dion wrote:
theckhd wrote:The second point is even more illogical to me. Players burning out is a real problem, not just for high-end guilds, but for middle-of-the-road guilds and by extension for Blizzard (burnout = subscriber loss). If you don't believe that, then perhaps you may want to revisit some of the design decisions that were made going into Cataclysm. One of the reasons for shared 10/25 lockouts was precisely that - player burnout. And while it may not impact you personally when a guild like vodka/Exodus collapses, but it does have ripple effects on the game as a whole.


It is really a problem. Not in game though as it's in the players. There is nobody forcing them to do stuff they don't like. There is no gun held at their head. If said player is stupid enough not to realize, that burned out player makes no progress and they should stop doing stuff they don't like or stuff that burns them up, whose fault it is?


Repeating what you've already said doesn't magically make it a better argument. There are players who are driven by raiding, and won't feel happy about their experience unless they've done everything they can to reasonably prepare for it. Increasing the amount of time it takes to do that, especially by giving a noticeable incentive to repeat content, isn't just a player problem. It's a legitimate game design issue.

Consider the outcry against daily quests. Many players burned out on daily quests early in the expansion, and not just raiders. Casual players started unsubscribing too. Blizzard heard that feedback loud and clear, and changed their approach to daily quests in 5.2 and beyond as a result.

Were all of those players "too stupid" to stop doing stuff they don't like? Was it their fault that they didn't like doing daily quests? Should Blizzard have told them to suck it up and continued to mass-produce daily quests in leiu of, say, the 5.2 scenario-esque quests or 5.3's Battlefield Barrens?

At some point, you have to draw a line between the player taking responsibility for their own gameplay and the game designer accepting responsibility for the content provided. The two aren't interrelated, but it's also not fair to lay the blame at the player's feet when the game encourages incessant repetition.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:18 pm

Flex wrote:
Thels wrote:If you're killing a boss on heroic, then you can't kill the boss on normal during the same week, so there is zero reason to hand out normal loot on heroic kills.


I need to work on my snark since
For the first: exactly how do you quantify "loot that they didn't earn?"
is perhaps the most easily answered question in this thread.

The only way I'd support adding LFR chance in heroic kills is if it replaced the normal bonus roll. Say you have a 10% on a normal bonus roll, the LFR bonus would be a 50% chance of a usable item.


Dion wrote:
theckhd wrote: Certainly defeating a Heroic boss takes far more organization and effort than LFR, which is why it rewards better loot. I don't think you could successfully argue otherwise.

Then they should run LFR. Or not. Totaly up for them to deside. Guild could also make guild run for it.


For the purposes of discussion, could you clarify the reasons behind this train of thought? IE. What exactly is the problem with Normal/Heroic raiders getting LFR loot during their Normal/Heroic clear? If you're not running Normal/Heroic, it shouldn't affect you. If you do run Normal/Heroic, it would save you quite some time.



Flex wrote:
theckhd wrote:The second point is even more illogical to me. Players burning out is a real problem, not just for high-end guilds, but for middle-of-the-road guilds and by extension for Blizzard (burnout = subscriber loss). If you don't believe that, then perhaps you may want to revisit some of the design decisions that were made going into Cataclysm. One of the reasons for shared 10/25 lockouts was precisely that - player burnout. And while it may not impact you personally when a guild like vodka/Exodus collapses, but it does have ripple effects on the game as a whole.


It is really a problem. Not in game though as it's in the players. There is nobody forcing them to do stuff they don't like. There is no gun held at their head. If said player is stupid enough not to realize, that burned out player makes no progress and they should stop doing stuff they don't like or stuff that burns them up, whose fault it is?


Try to position yourself in the mind of the heroic raider for a moment. Your guild is progressing through heroics, and you seem to be just a bit short on overall Raid DPS to down the 4th HC boss. You yourself have gotten unlucky with your trinkets, and are still walking with 2 trinkets from last tier. There's this trinket in LFR that would increase your damage, and having that trinket would perhaps have changed that 1 million hp wipe into an actual kill.

Now, you have 2 options. 1: You are going to farm that trinket, and help your 24 buddies out, so you stand a better chance of killing that boss the next time. 2: You are going to slack and not farm that trinket, and by doing so, holding back your 24 buddies.

WoW is not a singleplayer game. Not gearing yourself to the max is not holding back just yourself, it's holding back 24 others. It's not just a guild rule. Heck, very few guilds will actually force you to run LFR. It's a want to not be a slacker, not hold your 24 buddies back because of you.



halabar wrote:One solution to all this mess is to actually make another lockout, separating Normal from HC. HC raiders could then run normal to get the items they need, and not have to sink to LFR and Flex.


I'm not sure this would help the problem or make it worse. If you get unlucky, and the trinkets don't drop fast enough, then you're going to have to run HC AND Normal AND Flex AND LFR. It would mean one step extra, rather than one step less.

If things don't drop in Heroic, the guild can farm it on Flex. If things don't drop on Flex, you can farm it on LFR. Your suggestion would replace Flex with Normal, and add another step down the road.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:27 pm

I recon there should be a global 2 loots per boss per week - one "wow loot system" type and one "group loot"/"master looter" type. You can loot once per Heroic/Norm boss and once per LFR/Flex boss. If someone really needs loot from Flex, I am sure the Heroic team could knock out the entire raid in less than an hour.


This barely fixes the problem. Heroic raiders still need to run Flex, and with Flex in place, the occasions where LFR are worth it are smaller than before, because the chance that they got it in Normal/Flex before LFR opened up is bigger.

Perhaps "barely", but it does fix the problem, which is the goal.

And again it causes the problems for the Flex raider. "Do I LFR before the Flex raid or not?"


No it doesn't. If running LFR locks you out of loot for that boss in Flex, you'll never run LFR before Flex due to the chance for better gear.

Flex is always going to be preferable due to:

Lack of bads spoiling the raid
Lack of elites spoiling the raid
Lack of griefers
Better ilvl
Encounter mechanics means less boring faceroll

If the Flex doesn't clear, only then you can do LFR for the remaining bosses, and get loot from them. For the casual raider with friends, or who is able to manage an entire raid without sucking so bad as to be kicked from a PuG, this potentially means never having to set foot in LFR. That's "win" by any standard.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:43 pm

theckhd wrote:At some point, you have to draw a line between the player taking responsibility for their own gameplay and the game designer accepting responsibility for the content provided. The two aren't interrelated, but it's also not fair to lay the blame at the player's feet when the game encourages incessant repetition.


I'm not really sure how the two aren't interrelated... typo?

for my part, as said a few pages back, if the LFR loot were to become a guaranteed extra N pieces on the boss as a regular drop, or even a 'free roll' (you get your individual loot roll as you would in LFR), I'd be against it because of my understanding of the philosophy of the current reward system. LFR reward is for LFR, heroic/normal/flex/scenario/PVP/whatever is for heroic/normal/flex/scenario/PVP/whatever.

I'd be OK if it had the form of an effect in the bonus roll or some similar mechanism (maybe as a use for old coins or some such), because at least there it wouldn't just be an 'extra' reward. To the point that most of it would be vendored: I may be able to take the extra loot roll/drop if 1) there wasn't a guaranteed chance of getting a piece (also, if it were just going to be vendored, then we wouldn't be having this discussion), perhaps a slightly smaller one than LFR, and it wasn't DE'able. Also, have both Normal and Heroic have this chance.

Now I suppose this would also be balanced by the fact that if the fancy stuff is on the bosses likely to give the biggest headache, such that you couldn't 'farm' for stuff on those bosses prior to downing them without going into LFR or farming the normal mode as you probably would be anyway.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:09 pm

theckhd wrote:Yeah, I agree that solutions that napalm LFR/Flex aren't reasonable. Whatever solution is deployed (if any) needs to leave LFR and Flex unmolested.

<edit> I should add that sharing lockouts is basically a no-go for technical reasons, at least for 5.4. And while it "fixes" the problem, it also introduces extra barriers. There are social aspects to that - e.g. what if a heroic raider wants to help a friend's guild with their LFR/Flex raid?

Also note that pretty much every heroic guild will be running Flex for a few weeks to do meta achievements so they don't have to bother sacrificing heroic progression to them.


True. Although I had proposed it at one point as a loot lockout, so the social issue is not a factor, heck, they could even still get valor if they want. Also, as a LFR raider, especially on alts, I don't want to exclude HC raiders, as they generally boost the group, assuming they aren't like Preach and AFK through the whole run if they don't get kicked.

Something else that hasn't been mentioned here either... it doesn't appear that there will be any items that need to be farmed from bosses, since we'll have our legendary cloaks. So that will impact the time that HC raiders spend in the other tiers as well.

So when all is said and done...

Does this all boil down to HC raiders still wanting access to LFR, but they just want to bitch about it?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:12 pm

halabar wrote:I don't want to exclude HC raiders, as they generally boost the group, assuming they aren't like Preach and AFK through the whole run if they don't get kicked.

Wait... Preach afks thru the fights?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:57 pm

Koatanga wrote:
I recon there should be a global 2 loots per boss per week - one "wow loot system" type and one "group loot"/"master looter" type. You can loot once per Heroic/Norm boss and once per LFR/Flex boss. If someone really needs loot from Flex, I am sure the Heroic team could knock out the entire raid in less than an hour.


This barely fixes the problem. Heroic raiders still need to run Flex, and with Flex in place, the occasions where LFR are worth it are smaller than before, because the chance that they got it in Normal/Flex before LFR opened up is bigger.

Perhaps "barely", but it does fix the problem, which is the goal.


It diminishes the problem, which would be ok, if it didn't came with side effects:

Koatanga wrote:
And again it causes the problems for the Flex raider. "Do I LFR before the Flex raid or not?"


No it doesn't. If running LFR locks you out of loot for that boss in Flex, you'll never run LFR before Flex due to the chance for better gear.

Flex is always going to be preferable due to:

Lack of bads spoiling the raid
Lack of elites spoiling the raid
Lack of griefers
Better ilvl
Encounter mechanics means less boring faceroll

If the Flex doesn't clear, only then you can do LFR for the remaining bosses, and get loot from them. For the casual raider with friends, or who is able to manage an entire raid without sucking so bad as to be kicked from a PuG, this potentially means never having to set foot in LFR. That's "win" by any standard.


Ok, so that means that you are forced to run LFR at specific days of the week. Say you're on the US server, and your Flex group raids on Wednesday and Monday, because those 2 days just happens to work best for your Flex group. So after the Monday Flex run, only a couple of hours left before the weekly reset. Guess no LFR for you.

And what if you were progressing on say the 2nd boss of the wing? Naturally, you want the chance of loot from the first boss from Flex. But what if the third boss drops an awesome weapon? Perhaps queueing LFR before the raid to get that weapon would be interesting, but now you cannot, because that locks you out of loot from Flex.



benebarba wrote:for my part, as said a few pages back, if the LFR loot were to become a guaranteed extra N pieces on the boss as a regular drop, or even a 'free roll' (you get your individual loot roll as you would in LFR), I'd be against it because of my understanding of the philosophy of the current reward system. LFR reward is for LFR, heroic/normal/flex/scenario/PVP/whatever is for heroic/normal/flex/scenario/PVP/whatever.


But Heroic raiders would still mostly be using Heroic gear. And right now they also try to fill slots with LFR items. The only difference is that they won't need to separately run LFR for it anymore.

It's going to make an even smaller change when Flex is out, because then they will try to fill those slots with Flex items where possible, and only with LFR items, if the Flex items also don't happen to drop for them.

What is the real reason? It's not like those Heroic Raiders are unable to clear LFR or need a long time to learn the LFR bosses. It's not like they're getting loot they would otherwise have no access to. It's not like they won't keep running Flex for quite a while for those missing tier pieces and trinkets...

All it does is preventing Normal/HC raiders from being burdened even more by the existence of LFR and Flex, which are tailored for other people.

Are you a normal/heroic raider? Or an LFR or Flex raider? If the latter, things are looking better and better for you. More content tailored to your needs. You should be happy about that. But where does this need come from to force HC raiders to do more work because of added content that isn't tailored towards them, but to you?



halabar wrote:I had proposed it at one point as a loot lockout, so the social issue is not a factor


It is a factor due to calendar issues. The loot lockout would force players to run content in very specific orders.

You could run Flex with friends if you were already done with the Normal/HC content for the week, but if you weren't done yet, you would cut yourself out of the Normal/HC drops later that same week.

The same issue for people who are dangling in between Flex and Normal. Go for a full Flex clear? Or hope for a normal group? If the latter, wait how long? Will there still be decent Flex groups after that turnover point?



halabar wrote:Does this all boil down to HC raiders still wanting access to LFR, but they just want to bitch about it?


The problem is both Flex and LFR being "mandatory" for raiding every week, until you got all the items you can use from there. Some HC raiders want to run Flex, other HC raiders will not. Everyone's different.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:09 pm

Thels wrote:
benebarba wrote:for my part, as said a few pages back, if the LFR loot were to become a guaranteed extra N pieces on the boss as a regular drop, or even a 'free roll' (you get your individual loot roll as you would in LFR), I'd be against it because of my understanding of the philosophy of the current reward system. LFR reward is for LFR, heroic/normal/flex/scenario/PVP/whatever is for heroic/normal/flex/scenario/PVP/whatever.


But Heroic raiders would still mostly be using Heroic gear. And right now they also try to fill slots with LFR items. The only difference is that they won't need to separately run LFR for it anymore.

It's going to make an even smaller change when Flex is out, because then they will try to fill those slots with Flex items where possible, and only with LFR items, if the Flex items also don't happen to drop for them.

What is the real reason? It's not like those Heroic Raiders are unable to clear LFR or need a long time to learn the LFR bosses. It's not like they're getting loot they would otherwise have no access to. It's not like they won't keep running Flex for quite a while for those missing tier pieces and trinkets...

All it does is preventing Normal/HC raiders from being burdened even more by the existence of LFR and Flex, which are tailored for other people.

Are you a normal/heroic raider? Or an LFR or Flex raider? If the latter, things are looking better and better for you. More content tailored to your needs. You should be happy about that. But where does this need come from to force HC raiders to do more work because of added content that isn't tailored towards them, but to you?


What type of raider is quite irrelevant to any reasonable and balanced discussion. Since you asked, and seem convinced that is where my position comes from, I am actually neither. I am a player about to quit the game. I will probably do 5.4 LFR or Flex once then call it good for the foreseeable future.

My point was mainly that the extra loot roll idea only seemed like a stopgap to help prevent a certain group of raiders from leaving the game and no more. I feel it would be a poor game design decision because of the reasons I have given, but a sound business one (if it actually works, that is).
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:27 pm

Thels wrote:Ok, so that means that you are forced to run LFR at specific days of the week. Say you're on the US server, and your Flex group raids on Wednesday and Monday, because those 2 days just happens to work best for your Flex group. So after the Monday Flex run, only a couple of hours left before the weekly reset. Guess no LFR for you.

And what if you were progressing on say the 2nd boss of the wing? Naturally, you want the chance of loot from the first boss from Flex. But what if the third boss drops an awesome weapon? Perhaps queueing LFR before the raid to get that weapon would be interesting, but now you cannot, because that locks you out of loot from Flex.


If you have any sense you should be able to anticipate which bosses you are likely to clear in this week's Flex raid plus or minus maybe one boss. You can run LFR for the other bosses any time you want.

Maybe your raid group surprises you and you clear more than you thought you would on Monday. So, you lost out on the 1-in-whatever chance of getting non-redundant gear for one boss for one week. Big deal. Next week, plan on taking down the additional boss and don't do him in LFR. I don't see it as a serious hardship, honestly.

If you want a drop off Boss #3, then you probably shouldn't do him in LFR before you raid if you plan to take him down in your Felx group. It's not exactly rocket science. Leave the LFR after 2 bosses.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:49 pm

benebarba wrote:
theckhd wrote:At some point, you have to draw a line between the player taking responsibility for their own gameplay and the game designer accepting responsibility for the content provided. The two aren't interrelated, but it's also not fair to lay the blame at the player's feet when the game encourages incessant repetition.


I'm not really sure how the two aren't interrelated... typo?

Typo, I'm pretty sure I meant to say "the two aren't unrelated."
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:01 pm

benebarba wrote:My point was mainly that the extra loot roll idea only seemed like a stopgap to help prevent a certain group of raiders from leaving the game and no more. I feel it would be a poor game design decision because of the reasons I have given, but a sound business one (if it actually works, that is).

It's really just a time-saving mechanism. LFR isn't difficult and it doesn't require much skill, just a chunk of time. It's really the time that the heroic raiders are lamenting moreso than anything else. That time has to come from somewhere, and generally it doesn't come from the normal raid schedule. Which means extra time outside of your normal progression schedule just for a small chance at a few marginal upgrades.

That's one of the reasons I don't think it's a huge problem in the current state. Sure, there may be a couple upgrades to be had, but in terms of efficiency LFR is pretty awful. You're spending 45 minutes to an hour in a wing to get 90 valor and a 15% chance at loot from the particular boss you care about, and probably only a 25%-50% chance that the item you get is the one you want. It's not as bad to do it in a guild group where you pound through the place in under 20 minutes, and that's probably how I'll do it if I have to on Theck. But it's not really an efficient way to get gear upgrades.

If the valor reward was a little better it wouldn't feel as bad. Heroic scenarios put it to shame in terms of valor efficiency.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:17 pm

theckhd wrote:It's really just a time-saving mechanism. LFR isn't difficult and it doesn't require much skill, just a chunk of time. It's really the time that the heroic raiders are lamenting moreso than anything else. That time has to come from somewhere, and generally it doesn't come from the normal raid schedule. Which means extra time outside of your normal progression schedule just for a small chance at a few marginal upgrades.


Blizzard seems particularly fond of time sinks this time around. The plethora of dailies, grinding to get charms for extra rolls, rep requirements for Valor gear, rep requirement for starting the rep grind for upper-level enchanting patterns (we heard you like grinding rep, so we're gonna have you grind rep so you can grind rep)...

I don't imagine Blizzard would be much interested in time saving. Seems to me the time sinks are intentional to extend the life of the Xpac.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:29 pm

Please answer this concern:
"Either the new gear is exactly as good as the downleveled gear we'd have for LFR normally, in which case the problem remains the same, the new gear is better than the downleveled gear, in which case the problem is worse, and might force raiders to farm the trinkets even if they have the normal/hc trinkets, or the new gear is worse, in which case you'd be screwing over the LFRers."


That last one is off. While a new trinket would be individually worse than UVLS is, the entire point IS to preserve character progression and not "screw over the LFR'ers". Because that power can be offloaded onto other items by changing average item level etc.

Sure, visual applications are also likely to be more interesting to LFRers than HC raiders, but LFRers also enjoy seeing big numbers pop from time to time, possibly more than overall DPS, which is more important to a HC raider. Ergo, you're nerfing LFRers.


How are you possible plotting a course where LFR's care about big numbers, and their big numbers are totally related to trinkets?
You know that with UVLS the big numbers deal with things like Armies of Imps, or with Feather using Unholy dots and snapshot mechanics and stuff like not, not 1 MILLION MILLIOM damage right?

You're seriously devaluating LFRers. Anyone who isn't capable of running Normal on a regular basis falls in the LFR group. You'll have people that log in once a month, and sure, they're far from decked out. You also have people that spend almost the entire day on the game, but just don't want to bother with the hassle of actual raiding. Guess what? These people often have the entire Shado-Pan set, Several drops from both Nalak and Oondasta, the craftable Head and Boots, and a bunch of 516 items from HC Scenarios.

But even if they aren't fully decked out. Perhaps they just got lucky and got a few Nalak and Oondasta drops early in 5.2. Now they enter T16LFR, and an item drops for the same slot that they got lucky on at Nalak. You suggest that the new item ain't better than their old item that they looted half a year ago...

Better itemization is a pointless issue. Sure, some items will be itemized better, while other items will be itemized worse. Not all itemizations are better for all classes around. In addition, we're talking about LFRers here. They WILL look at the item level first and foremost.


That seems to betray a basic misunderstanding of how item levels even work. But part of the problem here is that you can be damn sure that their expectation of the average LFR player is NOT "player decked out in everything from SPA and Nalak" just as much as their expectation of the average Normal player is not "535 average, having obtained everything, upgraded everything and finished Legendary cloak".

And as has been mentioned, the nature of Shado-Pan Assault Valor gear is a one-off. Valor in a hypothetical T17 or T18 is damn unlikely to involve just about every slot, so if the objection is that a change that certainly won't be in 5.4 doesn't make sense for 5.4 specifically, that's .... not really saying anything.

To maximize loot gain (and we are talking about guilds that focus on maximizing loot gain, else this wouldn't be an issue at all), the loot officers would have to go over every single piece of loot in the entire instance every week, and assign each possible piece to one of their raiders, so that the raiders can then queue Flex for the bosses they won't get any loot from. They have to do some weird queueing, with people entering and leaving at specific bosses, because they want to remain unlootsaved to those bosses.
....
This is a little better. Loot officers can now announce who should get loot from which boss before every boss, rather than at the start of the week, and thus adapt it a little. In case Mage A is sick, Mage B is now the assigned target for that caster trinket. Loot officers still need to go over the entire list every week before the start of the raid, as doing it midraid would be way too time consuming.

The raiders could then set "Pass on loot" to "Yes" for all bosses they're not entitled any gear from, and after the raid is over, they could run Flex and get a chance on loot from all bosses they weren't eligible for.


Actually, when you're talking about THIS, you're getting into the level of "Ran 25 LFR's in week 1 DS", which wasn't a common practice at all.
And not only do loot officers not need to do anything like that for a guild to maximise loot, because players have brains too and can talk to each other, we've never hypothetsised Option 1. Option 1 is silly.

You're deliberately overcomplicating something that players don't actually work that way for in reality to make it sound worse than it actually is - the reality is that it won't 100% solve everything. And no solution will. Theck's hardcore guild certainly won't be doing anything like that. My hardcore guild certainly won't be doing anything like that. Even for people that aren't allocated a specific item, they'll have 3 or so upgrades off that very same boss that they'll want the Heroic version of, and even if people talk beforehand and say Renataki's goes to the Hunter, that's no different to what would happen if nothing existed and Renataki's dropped anyway, except that now 3 or 5 people go into LFR instead of 7 or 8, for the cost of "We talked for 5 minutes before the raid". On an effort/coordination scale, that's actually still an improvement.

The Flexer can just pass on loot for the first 2 bosses in LFR, and only get loot from the 3rd boss, and then from the first boss in Flex. If they don't down the 2nd boss in Flex, he can run LFR again to get loot from the 2nd boss in LFR. He now has to run LFR twice to optimize his gear, rather than once, so this solution actually gives this Flex raider more work, rather than less.


Flex isn't normal mode. He's meant to be able to get in and realistically get all 3 down.

If he's a Flex raider, he's not meant to be fully clearing Flex from day 1. He's meant to slowly progress his way through Flex, with perhaps running LFR on the side, if he can find the time and enjoyment for that.

Also, not all things are black and white like that. It could be that Charlie is probably capable of running normal, but he hasn't found a guild yet at the moment


If he's a Flex raider, the only reason he can't expect to full clear Flex from day 1 is that Flex won't be open from day 1. Flex IS intended to be something that is progressed through much much faster than Normal mode will be, within a few pulls. The difference is that unlike LFR, where things don't matter because anonymity, Flex mechanics will matter.

This concept of person capable of running normal but hasn't found a guild yet weighing up whether he or she will find a guild that specific week is so extremely narrow that it's a little silly. It's not even a debate really - there's no guild to count on, run Flex.

Please answer this concern:
With loot lockout, he has to consider his options. Does he join this decent looking Flex run on Wednesday evening that is likely to clear a lot of bosses, knowing that his chances for normal are out for the week? Or should he wait, in the hopes of finding a spot in a normal pug. How long should he wait? If he waits for the last evening of the week, he might not be able to find a decent Flex group anymore.


This isn't a concern, let alone an ongoing concern. Blizzard's intention in that is "Flex is the mode for you".

Thing is, in the absence of not getting the Normal/Heroic version, heroic raiders will still try to do LFR/Flex even for that gimped trinket because its still better than the previous tier. It's not really changing anything. Only change I see is Heroic raiders bemoaning that LFR/Flex trinkets are much much weaker now, and that they would prolly prefer a 528 ilvl trinket from LFR that functions just as good as the heroic version.


Return on Effort my friend. That trinket is no longer going to be 100k dps worthy, so the Return is going to slip below the effort of running LFR for many people. Especially since having a previous tier Normal or Normal Thunderforged, or having a current tier not-so-great trinket like Talisman is actually a decent option instead of a shard. There can certainly be people who will find the trinket still useful to run for, especially if they never looted a trinket last tier so they're still using Relic of Xuen, but THAT isn't realistically solvable and 100% success has never been a qualifier for whether something has worked or not.

Did you really see Heroic Raiders complain that LFR Gurth after it was hotfixed wasn't good enough?

The more Darielle argues, the more I see that the HC argument that's being put forth is really not the time commitment, but that LFR shouldn't have that loot at all.


You really, really, really need to read better.

Do the crafting items obtained via disenchanting raid drops come from LFR as well?


Blood Spirits can be gotten from the bag atm, but that's relatively rare. Haunting Spirits cannot.

Also, not every HC raider hates Flex. Given, it's not that likely that a HC raider really enjoys LFR on his main, but there certainly will be HC raiders that enjoy a Flex run every now and then with some casual friends, without worrying about being locked out to their HC run.


I'm sure every Heroic raider will also enjoy being able to do Meta-Achievements in Flex rather than play the Achievement game in Normal/Heroic and/or give up a Heroic clear for a couple of weeks to finish up the Meta at the end.

Blizzard seems particularly fond of time sinks this time around. The plethora of dailies, grinding to get charms for extra rolls, rep requirements for Valor gear, rep requirement for starting the rep grind for upper-level enchanting patterns (we heard you like grinding rep, so we're gonna have you grind rep so you can grind rep)...

I don't imagine Blizzard would be much interested in time saving. Seems to me the time sinks are intentional to extend the life of the Xpac.


That sort of gets into the balancing of time-sink however.

They wanted activities to do outside of raiding because Raiders who log in for raid and then log out for the rest of the week lose a bit of attachment to the game.
At the same time, putting too much time-sink becomes a burnout issue.
And at the same time, an out-of-raid activity that involves doing the same raid is even worse because you're not even seeing or doing anything new.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:00 pm

Darielle wrote:That sort of gets into the balancing of time-sink however.

They wanted activities to do outside of raiding because Raiders who log in for raid and then log out for the rest of the week lose a bit of attachment to the game.
At the same time, putting too much time-sink becomes a burnout issue.
And at the same time, an out-of-raid activity that involves doing the same raid is even worse because you're not even seeing or doing anything new.

None of the time sinks involve doing or seeing anything new. Dailies are horrifically repetitive and yield so little progress that burnout is a very real thing. Killing stuff in the Barrens doesn't expand my love for the game so much as it provides the lesser charms I need, if I can be bothered to get them anymore. Pet battles are the same thing over and over - I pick it up from time to time only to get bored with it and drop it again. Archaeology? Burn-out central.

I do try to farm the appropriate charms before my alt runs a LFR, but it's so soul-destroying that I just skip it and run the LFR. That alone says that doing the raid over is not in fact worse than the out-of-raid activity, because I would rather be raiding than grinding mobs. I'm either unusual in that regard, or your point is countered.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:12 pm

None of the time sinks involve doing or seeing anything new. Dailies are horrifically repetitive and yield so little progress that burnout is a very real thing. Killing stuff in the Barrens doesn't expand my love for the game so much as it provides the lesser charms I need, if I can be bothered to get them anymore. Pet battles are the same thing over and over - I pick it up from time to time only to get bored with it and drop it again. Archaeology? Burn-out central.

I do try to farm the appropriate charms before my alt runs a LFR, but it's so soul-destroying that I just skip it and run the LFR. That alone says that doing the raid over is not in fact worse than the out-of-raid activity, because I would rather be raiding than grinding mobs. I'm either unusual in that regard, or your point is countered.


The concept isn't that they should involve doing something new every week, it's that they should involve doing something new for that tier, or for that round.
Something like you start off doing dailies for charms, get your reps done, discover all the stories, so now you move into pet battles, then you move into Challenge modes, etc.

All of this comes with another drawback - the big window of losing subscribers, particularly raiding subscribers is when somethign happens to their guild. If the 2 weeks or so involve them doing nothing interesting or something boring, that's a window where people are likely to just quit the game entirely instead of make new friends, work their way back into a guild. By timesinking all the activities alongside raiding, you now lose options for that window. If a person has already done Pet Battles to the point of boredom, those two weeks aren't going to be "I've never had time for Pet Battles before, let's see what they are while I find a guild", they're "Log out and go play XBOX time" which is more likely to result in never coming back.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:42 am

Koatanga wrote:If you have any sense you should be able to anticipate which bosses you are likely to clear in this week's Flex raid plus or minus maybe one boss. You can run LFR for the other bosses any time you want.

Maybe your raid group surprises you and you clear more than you thought you would on Monday. So, you lost out on the 1-in-whatever chance of getting non-redundant gear for one boss for one week. Big deal. Next week, plan on taking down the additional boss and don't do him in LFR. I don't see it as a serious hardship, honestly.

If you want a drop off Boss #3, then you probably shouldn't do him in LFR before you raid if you plan to take him down in your Felx group. It's not exactly rocket science. Leave the LFR after 2 bosses.


Still doesn't solve the issue about Flex being late during the week, and you having no opportunities left after to run LFR.

And it also has the problem where people that aren't sure if they're going to find a proper Flex group later in the week don't know if they should run LFR or not.



Koatanga wrote:Blizzard seems particularly fond of time sinks this time around. The plethora of dailies, grinding to get charms for extra rolls, rep requirements for Valor gear, rep requirement for starting the rep grind for upper-level enchanting patterns (we heard you like grinding rep, so we're gonna have you grind rep so you can grind rep)...


Except that they're moving away form dailies, reduced the amount of charms that you need every week, vastly increased the income rate of charms, are removing the non-raid rep from valor, and removed the rep requirement for farming rep. They realized they made a mistake and are tuning things back. Don't expect to see 6.0 being anywhere close to 5.0 qua rep and dailies.

Blizzard also did state that it's a concern. They just don't want to fix the concern at the cost of other people.



Darielle wrote:
Please answer this concern:
"Either the new gear is exactly as good as the downleveled gear we'd have for LFR normally, in which case the problem remains the same, the new gear is better than the downleveled gear, in which case the problem is worse, and might force raiders to farm the trinkets even if they have the normal/hc trinkets, or the new gear is worse, in which case you'd be screwing over the LFRers."


That last one is off. While a new trinket would be individually worse than UVLS is, the entire point IS to preserve character progression and not "screw over the LFR'ers". Because that power can be offloaded onto other items by changing average item level etc.


Good job on not answering my concern. If you want to prove your point, explain to us in detail HOW changing itemization for trinkets in LFR would solve the issue.



Darielle wrote:
Sure, visual applications are also likely to be more interesting to LFRers than HC raiders, but LFRers also enjoy seeing big numbers pop from time to time, possibly more than overall DPS, which is more important to a HC raider. Ergo, you're nerfing LFRers.


How are you possible plotting a course where LFR's care about big numbers, and their big numbers are totally related to trinkets?
You know that with UVLS the big numbers deal with things like Armies of Imps, or with Feather using Unholy dots and snapshot mechanics and stuff like not, not 1 MILLION MILLIOM damage right?


I'm not talking about UVLS in specific. You were describing how things were better if LFR trinkets didn't have huge numbers with their procs, but were more flat. I replied that there are also LFRers who like to see big numbers on their screen from time to time. You're once again dodging the discussion.



Darielle wrote:
You're seriously devaluating LFRers. Anyone who isn't capable of running Normal on a regular basis falls in the LFR group. You'll have people that log in once a month, and sure, they're far from decked out. You also have people that spend almost the entire day on the game, but just don't want to bother with the hassle of actual raiding. Guess what? These people often have the entire Shado-Pan set, Several drops from both Nalak and Oondasta, the craftable Head and Boots, and a bunch of 516 items from HC Scenarios.

But even if they aren't fully decked out. Perhaps they just got lucky and got a few Nalak and Oondasta drops early in 5.2. Now they enter T16LFR, and an item drops for the same slot that they got lucky on at Nalak. You suggest that the new item ain't better than their old item that they looted half a year ago...

Better itemization is a pointless issue. Sure, some items will be itemized better, while other items will be itemized worse. Not all itemizations are better for all classes around. In addition, we're talking about LFRers here. They WILL look at the item level first and foremost.


That seems to betray a basic misunderstanding of how item levels even work. But part of the problem here is that you can be damn sure that their expectation of the average LFR player is NOT "player decked out in everything from SPA and Nalak" just as much as their expectation of the average Normal player is not "535 average, having obtained everything, upgraded everything and finished Legendary cloak".

And as has been mentioned, the nature of Shado-Pan Assault Valor gear is a one-off. Valor in a hypothetical T17 or T18 is damn unlikely to involve just about every slot, so if the objection is that a change that certainly won't be in 5.4 doesn't make sense for 5.4 specifically, that's .... not really saying anything.


No, not the average LFR player. As I said, there are people that ran LFR once and then unsubbed until the next patch, and there are people that farmed LFR, HC Scenarios, Nalak, Oondasta, and got VP items plus craftables on top.

It doesn't have to be fully decked out. Say you gotten into a single Nalak group soon after he was available, killed him, and got a nice pair of 522 pants from him. You are otherwise decked out in full 502 gear. Half a year later, you're enjoying this shiny new raid in LFR, kill the first boss, and happen to get a pair of pants from him. If those pants are 518, you're going to be seriously bummed out. Even if they're 523, you might've spent 1000 valor on upgrading your 522 pants, and spending 1000 valor for 1 ilvl doesn't seem that interesting in the slightest.

People that do LFR also want to see progression. People that do LFR have 522 in a couple of their slots. People that do LFR want to see progression in those few slots that they won half a year ago. If you make LFR gear 518 or 523, you're taking away that sense of progression from them.


Darielle wrote:
To maximize loot gain (and we are talking about guilds that focus on maximizing loot gain, else this wouldn't be an issue at all), the loot officers would have to go over every single piece of loot in the entire instance every week, and assign each possible piece to one of their raiders, so that the raiders can then queue Flex for the bosses they won't get any loot from. They have to do some weird queueing, with people entering and leaving at specific bosses, because they want to remain unlootsaved to those bosses.
....
This is a little better. Loot officers can now announce who should get loot from which boss before every boss, rather than at the start of the week, and thus adapt it a little. In case Mage A is sick, Mage B is now the assigned target for that caster trinket. Loot officers still need to go over the entire list every week before the start of the raid, as doing it midraid would be way too time consuming.

The raiders could then set "Pass on loot" to "Yes" for all bosses they're not entitled any gear from, and after the raid is over, they could run Flex and get a chance on loot from all bosses they weren't eligible for.


Actually, when you're talking about THIS, you're getting into the level of "Ran 25 LFR's in week 1 DS", which wasn't a common practice at all.
And not only do loot officers not need to do anything like that for a guild to maximise loot, because players have brains too and can talk to each other, we've never hypothetsised Option 1. Option 1 is silly.

You're deliberately overcomplicating something that players don't actually work that way for in reality to make it sound worse than it actually is - the reality is that it won't 100% solve everything. And no solution will. Theck's hardcore guild certainly won't be doing anything like that. My hardcore guild certainly won't be doing anything like that. Even for people that aren't allocated a specific item, they'll have 3 or so upgrades off that very same boss that they'll want the Heroic version of, and even if people talk beforehand and say Renataki's goes to the Hunter, that's no different to what would happen if nothing existed and Renataki's dropped anyway, except that now 3 or 5 people go into LFR instead of 7 or 8, for the cost of "We talked for 5 minutes before the raid". On an effort/coordination scale, that's actually still an improvement.


If you can't be arsed to put in a little extra work checking out who needs what gear, then you likely can't be arsed to go LFR either. I know I would if this idea would go live. This whole discussion is about people that can't stop themselves from putting in that extra work for tiny improvements.

You're placing some weird arbitrary line saying "People will do X for the need of improving themselves, but people won't be bothered to do Y for the need of improving themselves."



Darielle wrote:
The Flexer can just pass on loot for the first 2 bosses in LFR, and only get loot from the 3rd boss, and then from the first boss in Flex. If they don't down the 2nd boss in Flex, he can run LFR again to get loot from the 2nd boss in LFR. He now has to run LFR twice to optimize his gear, rather than once, so this solution actually gives this Flex raider more work, rather than less.


Flex isn't normal mode. He's meant to be able to get in and realistically get all 3 down.


Flex isn't LFR mode. If Flex is aimed towards him, he's not meant to clear it first week, unless he's boosted.



Darielle wrote:
If he's a Flex raider, he's not meant to be fully clearing Flex from day 1. He's meant to slowly progress his way through Flex, with perhaps running LFR on the side, if he can find the time and enjoyment for that.

Also, not all things are black and white like that. It could be that Charlie is probably capable of running normal, but he hasn't found a guild yet at the moment


If he's a Flex raider, the only reason he can't expect to full clear Flex from day 1 is that Flex won't be open from day 1. Flex IS intended to be something that is progressed through much much faster than Normal mode will be, within a few pulls. The difference is that unlike LFR, where things don't matter because anonymity, Flex mechanics will matter.

This concept of person capable of running normal but hasn't found a guild yet weighing up whether he or she will find a guild that specific week is so extremely narrow that it's a little silly. It's not even a debate really - there's no guild to count on, run Flex.


As said again, Flex is not intended to be LFR. Sure, you and me will clear the entire wing the moment we set foot in it, but the people for whom Flex is intended, if they go with a full group of people for whom Flex is intended, they will have to progress their way through.

Have you looked around further than your own raid team, really? There are tons of people out there that manage to get into a decent pug one week, and fail to find one the next week, especially the DPS, who are much less in demand. This would affect a lot more players than you think.



Darielle wrote:
Please answer this concern:
With loot lockout, he has to consider his options. Does he join this decent looking Flex run on Wednesday evening that is likely to clear a lot of bosses, knowing that his chances for normal are out for the week? Or should he wait, in the hopes of finding a spot in a normal pug. How long should he wait? If he waits for the last evening of the week, he might not be able to find a decent Flex group anymore.


This isn't a concern, let alone an ongoing concern. Blizzard's intention in that is "Flex is the mode for you".


Not a concern to you, but I can assure you it's a concern to a lot of other people. A lot of people out there can find a decent pug on one week, and not on the next week.
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