LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:38 pm

Dion wrote:My problems with this:
1. HC raiders entitled to loot they didn't earn. (It should then work other way around too, so LFR runners have chance per boss kills to earn loot they didn't earn, up to HC loot. HC raiders could get roll say lfr,flex,normal and hc for bonus but this would leave loot inflation so I don't think this is good for either side)
2.Fixing something that isn't broken. Really, it's not problem in game, it's in players. If you happen to be stupid enough to not realize that burned out player doesn't raid and doing things you don't want gets you burned, then I don't think Blizzard should try to save your ass. Also, how about organising guild LFR runs?


I'm a little bit baffled by both of these points. For the first: exactly how do you quantify "loot that they didn't earn?" Certainly defeating a Heroic boss takes far more organization and effort than LFR, which is why it rewards better loot. I don't think you could successfully argue otherwise.

So, given that Heroic drops more & better loot, what makes you think that there is a specific amount of "more/better" that's appropriate? Why is adding a bunch of LFR drops, most of which will just be vendored anyway, somehow "loot they didn't earn."

To put it in perspective, there was no such thing as Thunderforged loot in 5.0. It was added to solve a number of problems, one of which was to give certain raiders more/better loot. Was that loot that they didn't earn too? Or is it just possible that the amount of "more/better" is basically arbitrary, and that by implementing Thunderforged loot Blizzard has admitted to undershooting/undervaluing in the past?

The second point is even more illogical to me. Players burning out is a real problem, not just for high-end guilds, but for middle-of-the-road guilds and by extension for Blizzard (burnout = subscriber loss). If you don't believe that, then perhaps you may want to revisit some of the design decisions that were made going into Cataclysm. One of the reasons for shared 10/25 lockouts was precisely that - player burnout. And while it may not impact you personally when a guild like vodka/Exodus collapses, but it does have ripple effects on the game as a whole.

I can understand the resistance to ideas that devalue LFR significantly, like reducing loot quality or removing certain items. Even though I'm a hardcore raider, I'm against those things as well. Partly because I recognize and understand the part they play in the game's overall design (i.e. thinking as a designer rather than a player) and partly because I actually run LFR (and soon, Flex) on alts fairly regularly.

But I don't really understand resistance to ideas that preserve LFR, leaving it essentially untouched, while also trying to solve a problem that a different part of the player base is having. It just feels selfish to me, because when it boils down to it you're basically arguing about rewards for content that you are clearly not participating in, regardless of the reason.

I mean, consider these two statements:
LFR Raider: Heroic raiders shouldn't get free LFR loot just for clearing heroic mode!
Heroic Raider: LFR isn't real raiding, LFR raiders shouldn't even get epic loot!

It's essentially the same sentiment: "This other group of players that I'm not part of doesn't deserve stuff." And it's sort of nonsensical for me to see it keep popping up in this thread coming from otherwise seemingly-intelligent people.

As an aside, I do find it sort of ironic that there's this strong backlash against heroic raiders for not wanting to run LFR though. Wailing and gnashing of teeth over the fact that these players - who are pretty clearly well above the skill level at which that content becomes somewhat mundane, repetitive, and boring - would prefer not to have an incentive to run meaningless and mundane content.

Meanwhile, the outcry from players of all skill levels, including a large chunk of players that struggle through normal-mode content, has been about daily quests. "Why do we have to do this boring, repetitive, mundane content Blizzard? All we want to do is raid!" Again, it's the exact same argument: "I don't want to do content that feels like busywork and beneath me." If you've ever complained about daily quests (and looking over the posters in this thread, I think I can safely say that's almost all of you), you should probably be more sympathetic to the way heroic raiders feel about having an incentive to run LFR.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:42 pm

If killing a heroic boss is more work than killing an LFR boss it is also more work than killing a Normal or Flex mode boss so why limit it to just LFR loot. A heroic boss should drop 6 Heroic items, 6 normal items, 6 flex items and 6 LFR items.

If you've ever complained about daily quests (and looking over the posters in this thread, I think I can safely say that's almost all of you), you should probably be more sympathetic to the way heroic raiders feel about having an incentive to run LFR.


Lucky me. My answers to both situations is pretty much the same!
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:44 pm

halabar wrote:
Thels wrote:
halabar wrote:Thels: You are misunderstanding my loot lockout idea. My proposal is that it be grouped as LFR/Flex/Normal and Normal/HC. The minute someone kills an heroic boss, they are locked out of LFR/Flex loot, and are locked out of HC if they run LFR/Flex.

It's a far more equitable solution than pushing LFR and Flex gear down in either ilvl or itemization or just availablilty.

Any other discussion on the ilvl, power, procs, bling, or other issues is just going to be a further rehash of the age-old argument of why do noobs get gear that's similar to mine.


It would be better than locking out everything separately, but there are still some issues with it:

1) It would fix the issue for people that are doing HC from the very start. However, those that take a few weeks to progress through normal still have the incentive to run both Flex and LFR on top of Normal. Why no for HC raiders, but yes for (still) Normal raiders?

2) It would discourage guilds from starting on the first HC boss. If you cleared the normal instance, you need to choose between trying to kill the first HC boss, knowing that people could still use a few Flex items to gear up, or just clearing the instance on normal a couple more times.

3) Say I would want to run Flex with a couple of my friends, just for fun. I can't, because killing a single boss in Flex means I won't be able to get any loot from the HC bosses, even if I can't use any gear from Flex.


1) Because the normal raiders aren't the ones crying about having to raid too much. :-)

2) True.

3) Also true.

Remember, this is the solution to solve the HC "woe is me, I have too much content that I HAVE to do" QQ. It's a better solution that LFR/Flex being gutted or removed from the game to comfort the poor HC raiders that are being worked to the bone.

The HC raiders are the one crying about LFR and Flex being too good. Let's lock them out of it, problem solved.


It's not really just the HC raiders. I know plenty of people that are in normal raiding, and they also know that the LFR loot is helping them, and they also would prefer not to be forced to run HC every week.

Also, not every HC raider hates Flex. Given, it's not that likely that a HC raider really enjoys LFR on his main, but there certainly will be HC raiders that enjoy a Flex run every now and then with some casual friends, without worrying about being locked out to their HC run.

I can understand the need of HC players to farm Flex/LFR. Heck, it's the only reason you'll see me in LFR, and I really don't enjoy LFR one tiny bit, so having a solution that would remove that incentive would be totally awesome.

However, that solution should not come at the cost of fun for others, and so far, almost all solutions posted here have been that.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:54 pm

Flex wrote:
If you've ever complained about daily quests (and looking over the posters in this thread, I think I can safely say that's almost all of you), you should probably be more sympathetic to the way heroic raiders feel about having an incentive to run LFR.


Lucky me. My answers to both situations is pretty much the same!


I do agree that it is an issue.

I do not agree that it is an issue for heroic raiders only. While the average normal raider might be less serious about things, a lot of normal raiders are also doing LFR for the extra chances of loot.

I do also not agree with solutions that would either fix or reduce the issue, if those solutions would create a bunch of problems for the other people.



Flex wrote:If killing a heroic boss is more work than killing an LFR boss it is also more work than killing a Normal or Flex mode boss so why limit it to just LFR loot. A heroic boss should drop 6 Heroic items, 6 normal items, 6 flex items and 6 LFR items.


If you're killing a boss on heroic, then you can't kill the boss on normal during the same week, so there is zero reason to hand out normal loot on heroic kills.

The boss could drop both LFR and Flex loot, but that would be a bit of an overkill. Also, WoW is a game where time investment is rewarded, usually with loot (or a chance on loot at the least). You run LFR, you get loot.

The problem started to arise where Normal/HC raiders needed to run not 1 but 2 extra copies of their raid...
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:55 pm

Blizzard wrote:Greetings!
In here Blizzard we appreciate and admire our fantastic and passionate players and fanbase. We also take their well-being seriously so we are very proud to announce new service that takes one step forward: BlizzCare and it's new staff BlizzMommas! At the moment we need to really focus on one group of players as they have most of the problems, and we are sad to state that they are also our most passionate players. The hardmode raiders (henceforth the Players) :(

Healthy Mind(tm)
We know that many HC raiders have quit because they have burned out doing stuff they don't like as they percieve that progress demands so. This is why we have made mandatory mental training and testing before we let them log in. Mommas have been fully trained in psychology so they can soothe Players temper-tantrums when possible, but also can temporarily or permanently suspend them. Each Player needs to fill in questionare about their mood and mental health. Mommas will then evaluate Players and make judgement if they are mentaly fit to play or are they in that possition that their fragile mind can't take it anymore and is danger to suffer mental breakdown. Mommas will intervene and soothe them and if that doesn't help they will suspend them before they will cause grief to themself and others around them. Players also must take part in mental training program that teaches them how to resist certain temptations like raiding LFR while hating it. This will also help them immeasurably as they can't resist most temptations outside game as well. As Players are in social groups called Guilds, they also have possibility for group counselling and meditation training.

Healthy Mind Deserves Fitting Body(tm)
Players must here on take 15 minute breaks to strecth for every hour they play. System automaticly logs them out of the game and our Mommas watch that they strech properly via webcam. Playtime is earned via workout that Mommas watch so Players don't cheat! For every one hour they exercise Players get to spend 1½ hour in game. No cheating on those squats! Players also need mark their meals to online webservice so Mommas can keep on eye on how Players eat. If Mommas feel that Players are cheating, they will make a housecall and check Players fridge. If Players don't have webcam or refuse to comply their account can and will be closed as stated in ToS. We take this matter very seriously.

Gameplay changes(tm)
We here Blizzard admit that sometimes even after our best of help, there are Players that can't be helped. Therefore we must take some kind of action ingame. We are convinsed that best action is that beginning at 5.4 Heroic modes drop only cosmetic loot for as long as that tier is current content. After next tier is released, we remove chance to get that cosmetic gear and that said heroic will drop gear with stats but new current content hardmodes drop cosmetic gear. This is to prevent that Players feel mandatory to run LFR&Flex for gear.

This will be announced soon, it's that great big unannounced feature that ships with 5.4!
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:01 pm

Thels wrote:If you're killing a boss on heroic, then you can't kill the boss on normal during the same week, so there is zero reason to hand out normal loot on heroic kills.


I need to work on my snark since
For the first: exactly how do you quantify "loot that they didn't earn?"
is perhaps the most easily answered question in this thread.

The only way I'd support adding LFR chance in heroic kills is if it replaced the normal bonus roll. Say you have a 10% on a normal bonus roll, the LFR bonus would be a 50% chance of a usable item.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:10 pm

theckhd wrote: Certainly defeating a Heroic boss takes far more organization and effort than LFR, which is why it rewards better loot. I don't think you could successfully argue otherwise.

Then they should run LFR. Or not. Totaly up for them to deside. Guild could also make guild run for it.

theckhd wrote:The second point is even more illogical to me. Players burning out is a real problem, not just for high-end guilds, but for middle-of-the-road guilds and by extension for Blizzard (burnout = subscriber loss). If you don't believe that, then perhaps you may want to revisit some of the design decisions that were made going into Cataclysm. One of the reasons for shared 10/25 lockouts was precisely that - player burnout. And while it may not impact you personally when a guild like vodka/Exodus collapses, but it does have ripple effects on the game as a whole.


It is really a problem. Not in game though as it's in the players. There is nobody forcing them to do stuff they don't like. There is no gun held at their head. If said player is stupid enough not to realize, that burned out player makes no progress and they should stop doing stuff they don't like or stuff that burns them up, whose fault it is?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:51 pm

Theck, I agree with most of what you're saying, but it should be noted that most of the reaction from the LFR/Flex camp is reaction to suggested napalming of LFR/Flex.

One solution to all this mess is to actually make another lockout, separating Normal from HC. HC raiders could then run normal to get the items they need, and not have to sink to LFR and Flex. Although, I could really care less if they used the bonus roll system to grant LFR loot in HC.

It could also be potentially solved with some other system to allow players to fill key slots, but I doubt Blizz will go that way as well. After all, if you've filled all your slots, and killed the boss, time to play something on your PS4 for the next 5 months, amirighte?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:57 pm

Yeah, I agree that solutions that napalm LFR/Flex aren't reasonable. Whatever solution is deployed (if any) needs to leave LFR and Flex unmolested.

<edit> I should add that sharing lockouts is basically a no-go for technical reasons, at least for 5.4. And while it "fixes" the problem, it also introduces extra barriers. There are social aspects to that - e.g. what if a heroic raider wants to help a friend's guild with their LFR/Flex raid?

Also note that pretty much every heroic guild will be running Flex for a few weeks to do meta achievements so they don't have to bother sacrificing heroic progression to them.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:08 pm

Dion wrote:
theckhd wrote: Certainly defeating a Heroic boss takes far more organization and effort than LFR, which is why it rewards better loot. I don't think you could successfully argue otherwise.

Then they should run LFR. Or not. Totaly up for them to deside. Guild could also make guild run for it.

That... isn't a counterpoint... In fact that doesn't even make sense with regards to the quoted passage.

Dion wrote:
theckhd wrote:The second point is even more illogical to me. Players burning out is a real problem, not just for high-end guilds, but for middle-of-the-road guilds and by extension for Blizzard (burnout = subscriber loss). If you don't believe that, then perhaps you may want to revisit some of the design decisions that were made going into Cataclysm. One of the reasons for shared 10/25 lockouts was precisely that - player burnout. And while it may not impact you personally when a guild like vodka/Exodus collapses, but it does have ripple effects on the game as a whole.


It is really a problem. Not in game though as it's in the players. There is nobody forcing them to do stuff they don't like. There is no gun held at their head. If said player is stupid enough not to realize, that burned out player makes no progress and they should stop doing stuff they don't like or stuff that burns them up, whose fault it is?


Repeating what you've already said doesn't magically make it a better argument. There are players who are driven by raiding, and won't feel happy about their experience unless they've done everything they can to reasonably prepare for it. Increasing the amount of time it takes to do that, especially by giving a noticeable incentive to repeat content, isn't just a player problem. It's a legitimate game design issue.

Consider the outcry against daily quests. Many players burned out on daily quests early in the expansion, and not just raiders. Casual players started unsubscribing too. Blizzard heard that feedback loud and clear, and changed their approach to daily quests in 5.2 and beyond as a result.

Were all of those players "too stupid" to stop doing stuff they don't like? Was it their fault that they didn't like doing daily quests? Should Blizzard have told them to suck it up and continued to mass-produce daily quests in leiu of, say, the 5.2 scenario-esque quests or 5.3's Battlefield Barrens?

At some point, you have to draw a line between the player taking responsibility for their own gameplay and the game designer accepting responsibility for the content provided. The two aren't interrelated, but it's also not fair to lay the blame at the player's feet when the game encourages incessant repetition.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:18 pm

Flex wrote:
Thels wrote:If you're killing a boss on heroic, then you can't kill the boss on normal during the same week, so there is zero reason to hand out normal loot on heroic kills.


I need to work on my snark since
For the first: exactly how do you quantify "loot that they didn't earn?"
is perhaps the most easily answered question in this thread.

The only way I'd support adding LFR chance in heroic kills is if it replaced the normal bonus roll. Say you have a 10% on a normal bonus roll, the LFR bonus would be a 50% chance of a usable item.


Dion wrote:
theckhd wrote: Certainly defeating a Heroic boss takes far more organization and effort than LFR, which is why it rewards better loot. I don't think you could successfully argue otherwise.

Then they should run LFR. Or not. Totaly up for them to deside. Guild could also make guild run for it.


For the purposes of discussion, could you clarify the reasons behind this train of thought? IE. What exactly is the problem with Normal/Heroic raiders getting LFR loot during their Normal/Heroic clear? If you're not running Normal/Heroic, it shouldn't affect you. If you do run Normal/Heroic, it would save you quite some time.



Flex wrote:
theckhd wrote:The second point is even more illogical to me. Players burning out is a real problem, not just for high-end guilds, but for middle-of-the-road guilds and by extension for Blizzard (burnout = subscriber loss). If you don't believe that, then perhaps you may want to revisit some of the design decisions that were made going into Cataclysm. One of the reasons for shared 10/25 lockouts was precisely that - player burnout. And while it may not impact you personally when a guild like vodka/Exodus collapses, but it does have ripple effects on the game as a whole.


It is really a problem. Not in game though as it's in the players. There is nobody forcing them to do stuff they don't like. There is no gun held at their head. If said player is stupid enough not to realize, that burned out player makes no progress and they should stop doing stuff they don't like or stuff that burns them up, whose fault it is?


Try to position yourself in the mind of the heroic raider for a moment. Your guild is progressing through heroics, and you seem to be just a bit short on overall Raid DPS to down the 4th HC boss. You yourself have gotten unlucky with your trinkets, and are still walking with 2 trinkets from last tier. There's this trinket in LFR that would increase your damage, and having that trinket would perhaps have changed that 1 million hp wipe into an actual kill.

Now, you have 2 options. 1: You are going to farm that trinket, and help your 24 buddies out, so you stand a better chance of killing that boss the next time. 2: You are going to slack and not farm that trinket, and by doing so, holding back your 24 buddies.

WoW is not a singleplayer game. Not gearing yourself to the max is not holding back just yourself, it's holding back 24 others. It's not just a guild rule. Heck, very few guilds will actually force you to run LFR. It's a want to not be a slacker, not hold your 24 buddies back because of you.



halabar wrote:One solution to all this mess is to actually make another lockout, separating Normal from HC. HC raiders could then run normal to get the items they need, and not have to sink to LFR and Flex.


I'm not sure this would help the problem or make it worse. If you get unlucky, and the trinkets don't drop fast enough, then you're going to have to run HC AND Normal AND Flex AND LFR. It would mean one step extra, rather than one step less.

If things don't drop in Heroic, the guild can farm it on Flex. If things don't drop on Flex, you can farm it on LFR. Your suggestion would replace Flex with Normal, and add another step down the road.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:27 pm

I recon there should be a global 2 loots per boss per week - one "wow loot system" type and one "group loot"/"master looter" type. You can loot once per Heroic/Norm boss and once per LFR/Flex boss. If someone really needs loot from Flex, I am sure the Heroic team could knock out the entire raid in less than an hour.


This barely fixes the problem. Heroic raiders still need to run Flex, and with Flex in place, the occasions where LFR are worth it are smaller than before, because the chance that they got it in Normal/Flex before LFR opened up is bigger.

Perhaps "barely", but it does fix the problem, which is the goal.

And again it causes the problems for the Flex raider. "Do I LFR before the Flex raid or not?"


No it doesn't. If running LFR locks you out of loot for that boss in Flex, you'll never run LFR before Flex due to the chance for better gear.

Flex is always going to be preferable due to:

Lack of bads spoiling the raid
Lack of elites spoiling the raid
Lack of griefers
Better ilvl
Encounter mechanics means less boring faceroll

If the Flex doesn't clear, only then you can do LFR for the remaining bosses, and get loot from them. For the casual raider with friends, or who is able to manage an entire raid without sucking so bad as to be kicked from a PuG, this potentially means never having to set foot in LFR. That's "win" by any standard.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:43 pm

theckhd wrote:At some point, you have to draw a line between the player taking responsibility for their own gameplay and the game designer accepting responsibility for the content provided. The two aren't interrelated, but it's also not fair to lay the blame at the player's feet when the game encourages incessant repetition.


I'm not really sure how the two aren't interrelated... typo?

for my part, as said a few pages back, if the LFR loot were to become a guaranteed extra N pieces on the boss as a regular drop, or even a 'free roll' (you get your individual loot roll as you would in LFR), I'd be against it because of my understanding of the philosophy of the current reward system. LFR reward is for LFR, heroic/normal/flex/scenario/PVP/whatever is for heroic/normal/flex/scenario/PVP/whatever.

I'd be OK if it had the form of an effect in the bonus roll or some similar mechanism (maybe as a use for old coins or some such), because at least there it wouldn't just be an 'extra' reward. To the point that most of it would be vendored: I may be able to take the extra loot roll/drop if 1) there wasn't a guaranteed chance of getting a piece (also, if it were just going to be vendored, then we wouldn't be having this discussion), perhaps a slightly smaller one than LFR, and it wasn't DE'able. Also, have both Normal and Heroic have this chance.

Now I suppose this would also be balanced by the fact that if the fancy stuff is on the bosses likely to give the biggest headache, such that you couldn't 'farm' for stuff on those bosses prior to downing them without going into LFR or farming the normal mode as you probably would be anyway.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:09 pm

theckhd wrote:Yeah, I agree that solutions that napalm LFR/Flex aren't reasonable. Whatever solution is deployed (if any) needs to leave LFR and Flex unmolested.

<edit> I should add that sharing lockouts is basically a no-go for technical reasons, at least for 5.4. And while it "fixes" the problem, it also introduces extra barriers. There are social aspects to that - e.g. what if a heroic raider wants to help a friend's guild with their LFR/Flex raid?

Also note that pretty much every heroic guild will be running Flex for a few weeks to do meta achievements so they don't have to bother sacrificing heroic progression to them.


True. Although I had proposed it at one point as a loot lockout, so the social issue is not a factor, heck, they could even still get valor if they want. Also, as a LFR raider, especially on alts, I don't want to exclude HC raiders, as they generally boost the group, assuming they aren't like Preach and AFK through the whole run if they don't get kicked.

Something else that hasn't been mentioned here either... it doesn't appear that there will be any items that need to be farmed from bosses, since we'll have our legendary cloaks. So that will impact the time that HC raiders spend in the other tiers as well.

So when all is said and done...

Does this all boil down to HC raiders still wanting access to LFR, but they just want to bitch about it?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:12 pm

halabar wrote:I don't want to exclude HC raiders, as they generally boost the group, assuming they aren't like Preach and AFK through the whole run if they don't get kicked.

Wait... Preach afks thru the fights?
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