LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:32 pm

If you think you're so right, go pester him. Apparently others tried already and that's why he chose to respond in that manner in the first place -- which means, he already heard the comments about LFR and Flex ilvls being so "high" (YMMV seeing how T15H is above T16LFR and T16H being almost 40 ilvls about T16LFR) and decided to address that and say they were ok with it.


This would be somewhat relevant if I was actually saying that LFR and Flex item levels were too high.

There is a big difference between breaking a class/spec and how content is designed.

And one could argue your statement of "Especially because part of his expectations of what players do or feel is based on a high-level theory that doesn't bear out in reality." is highly subjective and biased.


Subjective? If something pans out the way it does in reality, that's either true or not. There's nothing subjective about it.

The issue is, as a heroic raider, you are proposing changes to other levels of raiding, to make it better for you. When really, the only impact is that some HC raiders may feel it necessary to run LFR/Flex to fill certain gear slots faster.


AS mentioned earlier, which you're glossing over completely, the entire point of any suggestion IS to preserve the important things for the modes while still making improvements to those modes for its intended audience. I don't think you can possibly argue that not having content gated behind 1-2 month gating makes it better for Heroic Raiders.

So if that's really the issue, all this extra gear that's available, then go to a loot lockout, to remove that temptation. You can still run LFR for valor if you like. Because making changes to other levels of raiding, and impacting many more people to benefit the HC raiders is just stupid.

Frankly, I can't see why the HC raiders are so upset about this. If it was because of all the "baddies" in LFR, then you just run Flex with your guild, and you never have to see the baddies. If however, as it is for a few here and many on the official forums, that LFR is "beneath" them, then they just need to get over themselves.


Have you read anything at all?
A loot lockout was a proposed suggestion.
Also, "run Flex with guild" works for 25-man guilds who will tend to have 10 or more people on an offnight. For most 10-man guilds, Flex will be pugging on offnights because if there are regularly all 10 people on, the guild won't be in a Flex instance, it'll be in Heroic, as that would actually be a raid night.

Not all heroic raiders agree with you in the first place. There are those that are ok with how things are; Theck himself said it, that he and his guild will quickly ignore LFR and Flex, and he's more Heroic Raider than you.


Yes, thank you. Not all Heroic Raiders agree with me. That is completely correct. For the first time, you're not lumping all of Heroic Raiders into one unified imaginary voice.

But then, not ALL Heroic Raiders need to agree with me for something to be a design flaw.

Side note: Where did you pull the underlined from?

Also, it's hard to talk to you when you claim its perfectly fine to have LFR and Flex below T15H, even though they kind of already are. T16LFR and T16Flex need to be meaningful enough. If T16LFR was 518 (as an example), even if it progresses a character, it is not meaningful enough vis a vis gear that is already easily available thru VP from the previous tier.


Again, if you want to twist a statement that "If Flex WAS 530, LFR would be 518 or 523 and that's 2 tiers above current LFR" to "It's fine that way" or "I want it that way", you have reading issues.

I don't think you could in any way argue that T16LFR gear even at 518 is not a significant step up from 522 VP gear. Not only do extremely powerful tier bonuses ensure that, weapons and trinkets as well, Valor having so many slots this tier was an exception and something that won't be expected in the future, AND particularly in conjunction with Item Upgrades, Blizzard's expectation certainly isn't that the average LFR target player is going to be all decked out in 522.

And I find your Heroic Raiders will do LFR/Flex for the rewards argument to be highly subjective. More than an economic factor, I find it a psychological factor. A need to replace all the gear from the previous tier for something more powerful, this is in fact true for everyone, regardless of the content they raid. What I still think you dismiss is that LFR raiders do want to feel like they're wearing a similar, if less powerful gear than heroic raiders. That is also a psychological factor to account for when designing the content. I agree my own argument is subjective as well, but is equally as subjective as yours. That is leading to us talk over each other, I just happen to actually be aware of the conundrum.


So riddle me this:
528 tier get with a Set Bonus like "After using TF, your next finisher generates 3 CP on the target" is a similar, less power gear than heroic raiders, but a hypothetical 535 tier set with a Set Bonus like "After using TF, your next finisher generates 1 CP on the target" is not?

A 528 Trinket that does "Amplifies your Critical Strike damage and healing, Haste, and Mastery by 13%." is a similar, less powerful trinket than Heroic raiders, but a hypothetical 535 trinket that does "Your spells have a chance to amplify your Critical Strike damage and healing, Haste, and Mastery by 13% for 20 seconds" is not?

See, that's the problem. You think I'm actually talking about throwing something out of the window and making something fresh. That's not what I've actually been talking about. I thought that would have been pretty obvious when I talked about Rune being a Matrix proc, since that retains similar flavour to the original trinket (Rune itself being a development of when the Matrix idea was a new thing in Firelands), but the problem is that you're reading what you want you read.

With LFR and Flex opening later than normal and heroic modes, and in a gated manner, should diminish the value of LFR and Flex to heroic raiders -- and if you have had bad luck in Normal/Heroics in the first couple of weeks in the content, I think one would appreciate the idea of having an extra chance at loot from LFR/Flex down the road.


WHy does LFR or Flex need to open later? Why should it open later and then people go back into it anyway? It's not "bad luck" to not have everything you want in the first couple of weeks, it's pretty much standard.

Now tell me, and be honest about it, would you be happier if heroic loot was completely different than Normal/Flex gear, both in itemization, power and art?


I'd be pretty ambivalent about it. If they're actually using new art and itemisation, they never understood the topic and are being amateurs, and that's not a good thing.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:00 pm

I don't think you could in any way argue that T16LFR gear even at 518 is not a significant step up from 522 VP gear.


Well, I'd say that T16H gear should be ilvl 548 since its a significant step up from both 541 T15HTF, and 535 T15H gear. Right?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:20 pm

Well, I'd say that T16H gear should be ilvl 548 since its a significant step up from both 541 T15HTF, and 535 T15H gear. Right?


Well, yes, it is a significant step up - probably along the lines of 20-30% dps all together. T16H at 548 would be fine, even more so because the item level scaling this expansion has been pretty ridiculous, and item level scaling is getting more and more silly the higher item levels go.

Good news, we're reading the same book now.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:36 pm

You know, -if- all the heroic raiders who are complaining about LFR/Flex ilvl being too high were to agree on T16H being 548 as a tradeoff for making T16LFR/Flex weaker, I'd prolly start considering their complaints. Chances are they want to keep their T16H ilvl at 566 while knock LFR/Flex down the ilvl ladder.

Also, I've been saying that ilvl inflation has been an issue since the days of wrath. I remember people here saying that, as an example, Naxx25 gear would be worthless if it was 207 rather than 213, since it would only be half a tier jump in power from Naxx10 to Naxx25.

Just saying this to put things on a historical perspective in showing how pernicious it is the idea that harder content should be way more powerful than normal content (and that a half-a-tier jump is not enough), although perhaps Naxx is the wrong example and ToC would prolly work better, but the concept behind the ilvl jumps is the same.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:15 am

theckhd wrote:To be clear, I wasn't suggesting free LFR loot in Flex. Only LFR/Flex loot in normal/heroic. I think that even Flex loot in normal would be a bit much, to be honest, since there are actually legitimate reasons for normal raiders to go raid Flex.

So I was just thinking that you automatically get your LFR roll when killing a boss on normal/heroic. That removes any motivation for a player that can clear normal to go back and do LFR, which addresses the issue without having any effect on LFR loot itself.

As far as "free loot," keep in mind that the vast majority of the gear a heroic raider would get from their LFR roll is worthless to them. Apart from a handful of specific items (trinkets, a shield perhaps if they've had atrocious luck), it's all just going to get disenchanted or vendored. So I don't think it's accurate to think of it as "tons of extra gear for free." It's more like "here's another 30g per boss," and that can easily be compensated for by having the bosses drop less gold.

I still would prefer to be able to leverage that extra LFR roll as an increase to bonus rolls, because that lets the normal/heroic raider have a better chance on the couple items they do want.


My problems with this:
1. HC raiders entitled to loot they didn't earn. (It should then work other way around too, so LFR runners have chance per boss kills to earn loot they didn't earn, up to HC loot. HC raiders could get roll say lfr,flex,normal and hc for bonus but this would leave loot inflation so I don't think this is good for either side)
2.Fixing something that isn't broken. Really, it's not problem in game, it's in players. If you happen to be stupid enough to not realize that burned out player doesn't raid and doing things you don't want gets you burned, then I don't think Blizzard should try to save your ass. Also, how about organising guild LFR runs?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:44 am

Darielle wrote:
Giving LFR unique gear is a lot of extra work for blizzard, while not at all fixing the problem. Either the new gear is exactly as good as the downleveled gear we'd have for LFR normally, in which case the problem remains the same, the new gear is better than the downleveled gear, in which case the problem is worse, and might force raiders to farm the trinkets even if they have the normal/hc trinkets, or the new gear is worse, in which case you'd be screwing over the LFRers. Heck, even if it's equal or better, but more bland, you'd screw over the LFRers, as they enjoy interesting procs as well, or perhaps even more than HC raiders.


The work done in creating new items for the patch involves copying items over, allocating new stats and then scaling over. As a process, this effort isn't changed. It WOULD be extra effort if they NOW went in and tried to change stats in the Siege of Orgrimmar patch, but I think we can be rest assured that we're not talking about something that's on the cards for next patch anyway.

If the new gear is better by virtue of the fact that a raider hasn't had a new trinket for 7 months, that is an entirely different situation from "Trinkets are awesome for everyone". At the absolute worst case, you haven't had 100% success, you've had 80% success. That a solution won't perfectly pull off every case isn't an argument against it.


Please answer this concern:
"Either the new gear is exactly as good as the downleveled gear we'd have for LFR normally, in which case the problem remains the same, the new gear is better than the downleveled gear, in which case the problem is worse, and might force raiders to farm the trinkets even if they have the normal/hc trinkets, or the new gear is worse, in which case you'd be screwing over the LFRers."



Darielle wrote:To argue that LFR players might enjoy interesting procs more than Heroic raiders is extremely silly. The interest level of a proc isn't even tied to power anyway - DBW was interesting simply by virtue of the fact that you turned into a Taunka.


Sure, visual applications are also likely to be more interesting to LFRers than HC raiders, but LFRers also enjoy seeing big numbers pop from time to time, possibly more than overall DPS, which is more important to a HC raider. Ergo, you're nerfing LFRers.



Darielle wrote:
And it would be below the 522 valor items and craftables that a lot of them would have collected in the meantime, making most of 5.4's LFR loot completely useless to them.
....
I have been raiding LFR only since 5.0 and I'm decked almost fully in 516 and 522 because SPA and Oondasta&Nalak. (Exeptions are trinkets and two tier pieces) LFR would give me only minimal upgrades then.


518 or 523 Tier gear, trinkets, etc. are certainly going to be better than 522 Valor items or craftables. Unless "use" is relegated to "increased my item level". Even by virtue of simply sockets and itemisation, these so-called "minimal upgrades" should easily be a 20% or more performance boost, and that's not minimal.

Bearing in mind of course that they certainly aren't expecting the average LFR raider to actually BE fully decked out, or to also be farming Oondasta/Nalak. Shado-Pan Assault is also an outlier in Valor slot availability - I wouldn't expect that to be the case in the game going forward.


You're seriously devaluating LFRers. Anyone who isn't capable of running Normal on a regular basis falls in the LFR group. You'll have people that log in once a month, and sure, they're far from decked out. You also have people that spend almost the entire day on the game, but just don't want to bother with the hassle of actual raiding. Guess what? These people often have the entire Shado-Pan set, Several drops from both Nalak and Oondasta, the craftable Head and Boots, and a bunch of 516 items from HC Scenarios.

But even if they aren't fully decked out. Perhaps they just got lucky and got a few Nalak and Oondasta drops early in 5.2. Now they enter T16LFR, and an item drops for the same slot that they got lucky on at Nalak. You suggest that the new item ain't better than their old item that they looted half a year ago...

Better itemization is a pointless issue. Sure, some items will be itemized better, while other items will be itemized worse. Not all itemizations are better for all classes around. In addition, we're talking about LFRers here. They WILL look at the item level first and foremost.



Darielle wrote:
The problem is making people pick and choose "Do I want to do LFR or Flex for loot this week? Or am I going to wait and hope a nice spot opens up on a Normal run before the week is over, even if that means I don't have time left to run Flex after?"

The problem is also with guilds saying "D P Q S and Y are going to get these drops. Everyone else disable your loot distribution for next boss, so you can still run it on LFR", or if loot distribution can't be disabled per boss: "Groups 1, 2 and 3, you are going to run LFR on bosses 1-7 this week. Groups 4, 5 and the backup people, you are going to run LFR on bosses 8-14 this week. We'll funnel all the gear to the other half of the team. Next week, we're going to switch you guys around." And the HC guilds that do put time in farming those last trinkets in LFR will certainly use this method as well. It will just be more time consuming to figure out everything, rather than making things less time consuming. Therefor, it doesn't solve the issue.


You still haven't been convincing in showing how this is making things more time consuming for anyone compared to what they currently do now. Right now, everyone runs those LFR bosses, AND said raid group cherry picks Normal mode groups to maximise loot allocation anyway. At the worst case, you're still making the time commitment less.


I did, several times, but let me go over it again, really slow...

We're going to assume a loot lockout system, where players can only get loot from one of the three difficulty levels per week: LFR, Flex and Normal/HC. There are 2 ways to implement this.

1: Whichever difficulty level you kill the boss on first will be the difficulty level you get loot from. Thus, if half your raid has already done LFR, only the other half of the raid is eligible for loot.

To maximize loot gain (and we are talking about guilds that focus on maximizing loot gain, else this wouldn't be an issue at all), the loot officers would have to go over every single piece of loot in the entire instance every week, and assign each possible piece to one of their raiders, so that the raiders can then queue Flex for the bosses they won't get any loot from. They have to do some weird queueing, with people entering and leaving at specific bosses, because they want to remain unlootsaved to those bosses.

It would force the loot officers to go over all the possible loot drops every single week, and have them available as soon as possible, probably before the reset, because then all the raiders have to make sure they're running Flex for the appropriate bosses before the first actual raid. So now, instead of having to queue for LFR at times that suit them well, it becomes one logistical nightmare!

And let's look at the people for whom Flex is intended. Say you're in a Flex group, and you're currently progressing on the second boss. But you got a moment on your Wednesday afternoon to run LFR before the Flex raid starts. Should you run LFR? It gives you chance on nice loot from the 2nd and 3rd boss that might help you kill the 2nd Flex boss. But if you do, you won't get any gear from the first Flex boss, nor from the second Flex boss if it actually dies this week.



2: Whichever difficulty level you kill the boss on first while "Pass on loot" is set to "No" will be the difficulty level you get loot from. You can make yourself ineligible for loot by setting "Pass on loot" to "Yes" before the boss dies.

This is a little better. Loot officers can now announce who should get loot from which boss before every boss, rather than at the start of the week, and thus adapt it a little. In case Mage A is sick, Mage B is now the assigned target for that caster trinket. Loot officers still need to go over the entire list every week before the start of the raid, as doing it midraid would be way too time consuming.

The raiders could then set "Pass on loot" to "Yes" for all bosses they're not entitled any gear from, and after the raid is over, they could run Flex and get a chance on loot from all bosses they weren't eligible for.

The Flexer can just pass on loot for the first 2 bosses in LFR, and only get loot from the 3rd boss, and then from the first boss in Flex. If they don't down the 2nd boss in Flex, he can run LFR again to get loot from the 2nd boss in LFR. He now has to run LFR twice to optimize his gear, rather than once, so this solution actually gives this Flex raider more work, rather than less.

This also assumes for both the raiders and the Flexer that there is still time to run LFR/Flex after the last raid of the week. If the last raid of the week is during the last evening of the week, they're screwed.

Also, the heroic raiders can't go and run Flex before the raid, like they could with method 1, so the gear from Flex would only help for next week. If they want the loot to help for this week, they need to do things like method 1 and do everything beforehand. Now let's assume for a moment they aren't heroic raiders but normal raiders, and working hard on the last few bosses of the raid. They might go down, or not go down. They now have the same issue as the Flex raider. Do they get loot from the last few bosses or not? If not, and the bosses don't go down, they have to return to Flex after the regular raid to get the loot anyhow.



Either method MIGHT be less time consumed than just running the entire Flex for Normal/HC raiders, or running the entire LFR for Flex raiders, but it forces those raids to be farmed at specific times, rather then when is convenient, and makes it into a logistical nightmare (assuming of course you try to maximize loot gain, but if people didn't care about maximized loot gain, this discussion wouldn't exist).



Darielle wrote:The entire point of the various difficulty modes is that people DO choose the difficulty mode that most suits them. If Charlie is a Flex raider, he's meant to be doing Flex. His pugs are meant to be pugging Flex and full clearing Flex instead of full clearing Normal. If he's capable of full clearing Normal mode pugs, he's meant to be doing Normal mode, and not Normal mode on top of Flex mode.


If he's a Flex raider, he's not meant to be fully clearing Flex from day 1. He's meant to slowly progress his way through Flex, with perhaps running LFR on the side, if he can find the time and enjoyment for that.

Also, not all things are black and white like that. It could be that Charlie is probably capable of running normal, but he hasn't found a guild yet at the moment. Or perhaps he's just slightly undergeared, and using Flex pugs as a way to gear up, so guilds might be more interested in recruiting him. He might've found himself a decent pug from time to time and clear a couple of bosses in normal, perhaps half being carried, but doing ok enough for that not to be a problem. With the current rules, he could relaxedly run Flex, and then hope that there might be a pug he could join later in the week.

Please answer this concern:
With loot lockout, he has to consider his options. Does he join this decent looking Flex run on Wednesday evening that is likely to clear a lot of bosses, knowing that his chances for normal are out for the week? Or should he wait, in the hopes of finding a spot in a normal pug. How long should he wait? If he waits for the last evening of the week, he might not be able to find a decent Flex group anymore.

There are likely a lot more Charlies, than there are HC raiders that are forced to run LFR, and this loot lockout system changes the game for Charlie from "I'll join an interesting Flex and/or Normal group whenever I see one." to "Should I or should I not join this Flex group." and find out he shot himself in the foot, if he joined and later one finds a Normal raid looking for his class, or if he not joined, and then doesn't find a decent Flex group near the end of the week. I find Charlie's problem a lot more worrying than that HC raider's problem.



Darielle wrote:
25-man and 10-man separation ruined peoples fun if I remeber correctly. In Asia, that was the reason why they brought it back and why 25-man drops better loot. Also, I'm making wild guess that running through LFR/Flex is going to be much easier than running OpenRaid. Just my guess, haven't ever run those. Heck, I have seen people complaining that valor cap is no fun as they like running raids/scenarios/instaces and it's limiting their fun.


Consider then why Valor cap is still in the game. Also, you're confusing the Asia lockout structure somewhat.


In WotLK, 25 man dropped better gear than 10 man, so loot lockout would've been a problem. You'd get the same issues. "Do I join this 10 man group, knowing that I then can't get any better 25 man loot this week? But if I don't join this 10 man group, I might not find a 25 man group, and then I might not find a good 10 man group later in the week."

Nowadays, 10 and 25 drop the exact same loot. Your choice for raiding 10 or 25 man is entirely about which environment you prefer, rather than which gives better loot.

WotLK also did not have LFR, Flex, HC Scenarios, and what not. Once you were done with the dungeon gear, Raiding was all there was left to do, and being able to do both 10 and 25 man raiding, meant there was more to do on a single character.

You can still level an alt, and run 10 man on one character and 25 man on your other character. You just aren't penalized anymore for running only one or the other.

As for the gear, when Asian lockout split was first announced, it was stated that 25 man gear would be slightly higher ilvl than 10 man, then that 25 man had one free valor upgrade included. I don't know what it ended up as, but considering 25 man drops more TF than 10 man, it might have ended up as a nonissue.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:14 am

oldboyz wrote:make available LFR wwayyyyy way after normal opening! (like 1month minimal for 1st lfr wing, then every new wing by 3 weeks)


While this would certainly diminish the problem (though not remove it entirely), they can't push things back too far. They want everyone to have something to do, including the people for whom LFR is intended.

I do expect LFR to be pushed back a little more than before, due to the introduction of Flex, but since Flex offers the same problems as LFR, that doesn't solve the issue.



halabar wrote:So if that's really the issue, all this extra gear that's available, then go to a loot lockout, to remove that temptation. You can still run LFR for valor if you like. Because making changes to other levels of raiding, and impacting many more people to benefit the HC raiders is just stupid.


A loot lockout actually has more impact on Flex/Normal raiders than it has on HC raiders. People that are slowly progressing their way through Flex would then have to consider "Do I run LFR this week for the extra loot, or do I expect the boss to go down in our Flex run?" and the same for Flex/Normal.



Koatanga wrote:I recon there should be a global 2 loots per boss per week - one "wow loot system" type and one "group loot"/"master looter" type. You can loot once per Heroic/Norm boss and once per LFR/Flex boss. If someone really needs loot from Flex, I am sure the Heroic team could knock out the entire raid in less than an hour.


This barely fixes the problem. Heroic raiders still need to run Flex, and with Flex in place, the occasions where LFR are worth it are smaller than before, because the chance that they got it in Normal/Flex before LFR opened up is bigger.

And again it causes the problems for the Flex raider. "Do I LFR before the Flex raid or not?"



Koatanga wrote:I would also like to see raid lockouts that were extendable as per the LFR sections. If a raid instance is divided into 3 4-boss chunks, then it should be extendable in the same way. You can start on boss 4 if you previously beat 3 or more, or boss 6 if you beat 5 or more. I dislike wasting time on bosses 1-3 that have been cleared a ton of times when working on boss 6 or 8, while people still want from boss 5.


Are you suggesting this for the Normal/HC clears? I think that's an entire discussion on itself. :P



theckhd wrote:
Thels wrote:
Darielle wrote:- I don't have a problem with Theck's/Thels' concepts, so that's another possiblity.


The "Get your free LFR or Flex gear with your Normal/HC clear" would indeed fix the entire issue, but feels a little too much like "Here, have tons of extra gear for free." I could see it happening with free LFR loot in Normal/HC, but free LFR loot in Flex and free Flex loot in Normal/HC feels a little over the top to me.


To be clear, I wasn't suggesting free LFR loot in Flex. Only LFR/Flex loot in normal/heroic. I think that even Flex loot in normal would be a bit much, to be honest, since there are actually legitimate reasons for normal raiders to go raid Flex.


You weren't. I was just being thorough with the possibilities. :P



theckhd wrote:As far as "free loot," keep in mind that the vast majority of the gear a heroic raider would get from their LFR roll is worthless to them. Apart from a handful of specific items (trinkets, a shield perhaps if they've had atrocious luck), it's all just going to get disenchanted or vendored. So I don't think it's accurate to think of it as "tons of extra gear for free." It's more like "here's another 30g per boss," and that can easily be compensated for by having the bosses drop less gold.


Indeed, it's more of a really bad luck safety net than actually useful loot. The only problem about compensating for the lesser gold is the first few weeks where LFR hasn't opened yet, and thus no extra loot drops (assuming you follow my idea where the LFR loot should only drop for bosses that have been released in LFR format), and for the people that had already run LFR before the raid (though since this method takes all incentive of doing so away, it shouldn't be an issue).



theckhd wrote:I still would prefer to be able to leverage that extra LFR roll as an increase to bonus rolls, because that lets the normal/heroic raider have a better chance on the couple items they do want.


I personally don't like the idea. First off, specifically NOT running something shouldn't award you a bonus. The LFR drops basically save you the time running LFR. You could've gotten that loot anyhow, you're just saved the time to wrestle your way through LFR. This would actually increase your chance on good loot by NOT running LFR.

Secondly, it creates that tough choice again. If I'm a Flex raider, and my gear is perhaps barely enough to get into a Normal pug for the first few bosses, do I run LFR for the chances of extra gear, or do I wait in the hopes of finding a Normal pug and burning my coins there?

Finally, what about the bosses where you didn't spend a coin at. Can you still run those on LFR later on the week? What if I wasn't there on Thursday and didn't kill boss 5-8, but I did coin on bosses 2, 4 and 9. Can I still run LFR for bosses 5-8?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Kelerei » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:30 am

Worldie wrote:Tanking LFR on your own can be VERY frustrating due to the amount of tanks who just spam taunt every 8 seconds or have no clue of positioning and tank transitioning.


I've actually found that I have to concentrate harder tanking LFR on my own than when I'm running with my 10-man fixed group -- for precisely the reasons you've mentioned.

On the plus side, that's where I learned how to bubble off stacks effectively. ;)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:09 am

Thels: You are misunderstanding my loot lockout idea. My proposal is that it be grouped as LFR/Flex/Normal and Normal/HC. The minute someone kills an heroic boss, they are locked out of LFR/Flex loot, and are locked out of HC if they run LFR/Flex.

It's a far more equitable solution than pushing LFR and Flex gear down in either ilvl or itemization or just availablilty.

Any other discussion on the ilvl, power, procs, bling, or other issues is just going to be a further rehash of the age-old argument of why do noobs get gear that's similar to mine.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Ironshield » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:00 am

halabar wrote:Thels: You are misunderstanding my loot lockout idea. My proposal is that it be grouped as LFR/Flex/Normal and Normal/HC. The minute someone kills an heroic boss, they are locked out of LFR/Flex loot, and are locked out of HC if they run LFR/Flex.

It's a far more equitable solution than pushing LFR and Flex gear down in either ilvl or itemization or just availablilty.

Any other discussion on the ilvl, power, procs, bling, or other issues is just going to be a further rehash of the age-old argument of why do noobs get gear that's similar to mine.

The problem is that any system that makes you have to think, can I do this content if I MIGHT have a proper raid later this week is contrary to the goal of LFR / Flex existing - ie making raiding accessible to more people.

I raid once a week (my guild raids Thursday & Monday). On top of that my guild and a few other regulars do an organised LFR run every Wednesday where we blow through parts 3 & 4 as these aren't really that PuG friendly. That's 4 hours of 'raid' content a week. We will be changing our LFR run to a Flex run in 5.4. We've killed Jin'rokh on Heroic. Under your solution can I run LFR / Flex AT ALL? Or just no loot from Jin'rohk that week? (defeats the object since what I need from LFR is soulstones from the last 6 bosses). Or only after the Monday raid?

While I freely acknowledge that Darielle et al DO have a valid point that LFR / Flex PLUS Normal / Heroic is a LARGE time commitment that is likely to lead to people burning themselves out. And I expect that Blizzard would recognise the same problem and like to mitigate it. The ONLY solution that wouldn't immediately make LFR / Flex LESS fun for me and players like me is Theck's free loot option. But I wouldn't expect this to be likely to be implemented as at the end of the day it feels like free loot and it might feel unfair to those who CAN'T run normal / heroic mode, who LFR / Flex exists to please.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:20 am

Darielle wrote:A 528 Trinket that does "Amplifies your Critical Strike damage and healing, Haste, and Mastery by 13%." is a similar, less powerful trinket than Heroic raiders, but a hypothetical 535 trinket that does "Your spells have a chance to amplify your Critical Strike damage and healing, Haste, and Mastery by 13% for 20 seconds" is not?


I forgot to reply to this part earlier.

Thing is, in the absence of not getting the Normal/Heroic version, heroic raiders will still try to do LFR/Flex even for that gimped trinket because its still better than the previous tier. It's not really changing anything. Only change I see is Heroic raiders bemoaning that LFR/Flex trinkets are much much weaker now, and that they would prolly prefer a 528 ilvl trinket from LFR that functions just as good as the heroic version.

At least that's what I get when you explain your insight about how Heroic Raiders will try to get a reward that helps them out. Only thing you did was upset everyone all around.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:23 am

halabar wrote:Thels: You are misunderstanding my loot lockout idea. My proposal is that it be grouped as LFR/Flex/Normal and Normal/HC. The minute someone kills an heroic boss, they are locked out of LFR/Flex loot, and are locked out of HC if they run LFR/Flex.

It's a far more equitable solution than pushing LFR and Flex gear down in either ilvl or itemization or just availablilty.

Any other discussion on the ilvl, power, procs, bling, or other issues is just going to be a further rehash of the age-old argument of why do noobs get gear that's similar to mine.


It would be better than locking out everything separately, but there are still some issues with it:

1) It would fix the issue for people that are doing HC from the very start. However, those that take a few weeks to progress through normal still have the incentive to run both Flex and LFR on top of Normal. Why no for HC raiders, but yes for (still) Normal raiders?

2) It would discourage guilds from starting on the first HC boss. If you cleared the normal instance, you need to choose between trying to kill the first HC boss, knowing that people could still use a few Flex items to gear up, or just clearing the instance on normal a couple more times.

3) Say I would want to run Flex with a couple of my friends, just for fun. I can't, because killing a single boss in Flex means I won't be able to get any loot from the HC bosses, even if I can't use any gear from Flex.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Newsom » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:49 am

Didn't they say they were only going to put some gear pieces on flex/normal/heroic? Whatever happend to that? These trinkets would be a good start.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:51 am

Thels wrote:
halabar wrote:Thels: You are misunderstanding my loot lockout idea. My proposal is that it be grouped as LFR/Flex/Normal and Normal/HC. The minute someone kills an heroic boss, they are locked out of LFR/Flex loot, and are locked out of HC if they run LFR/Flex.

It's a far more equitable solution than pushing LFR and Flex gear down in either ilvl or itemization or just availablilty.

Any other discussion on the ilvl, power, procs, bling, or other issues is just going to be a further rehash of the age-old argument of why do noobs get gear that's similar to mine.


It would be better than locking out everything separately, but there are still some issues with it:

1) It would fix the issue for people that are doing HC from the very start. However, those that take a few weeks to progress through normal still have the incentive to run both Flex and LFR on top of Normal. Why no for HC raiders, but yes for (still) Normal raiders?

2) It would discourage guilds from starting on the first HC boss. If you cleared the normal instance, you need to choose between trying to kill the first HC boss, knowing that people could still use a few Flex items to gear up, or just clearing the instance on normal a couple more times.

3) Say I would want to run Flex with a couple of my friends, just for fun. I can't, because killing a single boss in Flex means I won't be able to get any loot from the HC bosses, even if I can't use any gear from Flex.


1) Because the normal raiders aren't the ones crying about having to raid too much. :-)

2) True.

3) Also true.

Remember, this is the solution to solve the HC "woe is me, I have too much content that I HAVE to do" QQ. It's a better solution that LFR/Flex being gutted or removed from the game to comfort the poor HC raiders that are being worked to the bone.

The HC raiders are the one crying about LFR and Flex being too good. Let's lock them out of it, problem solved.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:54 am

Newsom wrote:Didn't they say they were only going to put some gear pieces on flex/normal/heroic? Whatever happend to that? These trinkets would be a good start.


The current tier trinkets are already scaled down in RPPM, for each level, and we still need to remove them entirely?

D's arguments do seem to be along this line now, that trinkets are so amazing that only HC raiders should have access to them.
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