LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:06 am

You are always talking about LFR having an incentive for heroic raiders to do it. How there is a chance at a reward if you choose to trudge thru this content. You claim that the content is not really meant for you but you will do it because Blizz has put that reward there and now you are psychologically compelled to do it, because you don't want to fall behind and such.

What you might not realize is that there is a psychological value of having LFR being just a weaker version of normal and heroic gear. It's something that the rest of the masses aspire to. If you change it to be completely different from the N/H gear, then you're changing that. And that psychological value is the same one you allude to about LFR having an incentive good enough for heroic raiders just for the trinkets alone.

In the end, that LFR trinket that is an incentive for you and other heroic raiders is also the same very incentive a guy that only does LFR has.

You're the one that is refusing to put yourself on the shoes of the people that would be affected by your changes the most. You are the one that is being intransigent here -- and that's why Ion disagrees with you and other heroic raiders.

I realize at the end of the day that parts of our design may simply not be ideal for your personal playstyle, and I understand that perspective, but hopefully some of this sheds some light on our thought process and the different considerations involved.

Don't you remember all the talk in previous expansions about the heroic raiders not wanting the pleb to get access to the same gear they have? or complain that their gear looks just like theirs and such? That sentiment within the heroic raiding community hasnt changed much. Some heroic raiders just gave up on that argument.

Blizz put a carrot at the end of the stick, you want to change that carrot because it looks tasty enough to you, but you and those like you, have enough skill to get access to tastier versions of that carrot. For some people, the carrot you want to change is the only carrot they have access to.

This is why I am saying you're devaluing LFR.

The problem is:
- your argument is based on a psychological need to get a reward.
- you dismiss the psychological need argument of those your changes would affect the most.

Both arguments are equally valid. The trinket being so OP/Broken or tier pieces from LFR are just red herrings.

I am sorry, if you don't see that the psychological value of LFR for the people that only do LFR is the same as the psychological value of running LFR for its reward to a heroic raider then you will always sound as, and I quote: "I'm trying so desperately to be a special snowflake and LFR/Flex shouldn't drop any useable loot because I'm a loot obsessed drone with no self control"
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:32 am

Heard on another podcast from another "HC Raider" that both Flex and LFR should be below the previous tier's heroic gear. So the current heroic is 535 right, that would mean the coming flex would have to be about 530, and the new LFR would be barely above the current LFR. Yeah, that will work really well. :roll:

It amazes me that the HC Raiders are so willing to shit on everyone else just because they don't want to be "tempted" to run LFR. The elitism is just amazing, they are are so eager to fuck everyone else over.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:00 pm

Darielle wrote:Huh?

Old tiers have always had stuff, but they're basically never run by people. We've gotten well past the days when Dragonspine Trophy and Grim Toll and Death's Verdict were things. I don't see why you think people would complain about, or actually run old raid tiers. I mean, do you foresee people running T15 Heroic for UVLS next patch right now, even if LFR exists? After all, 535 UVLS would probably be pretty close to comparable to a 528 trinket. Or foresee that they'll start doing it just because they have more time if they're not running LFR?


Charlie has been having terrible luck. He haven't seen heroic trinket droppig nor normal. He has LFR version luckily. He then reads patch 5.4 patch notes and starts to salivate from trinkets. Also Flex mode! 3 chances for upgrade trinket+coins! Then he sees "Loot only from one mode" -> He goes FUUUUUUUUU! and goes to forums. To Charlie feel optimal in progressing in heroics, he now has one option to obtain better trinket. And he's not pleased as he feels that Blizzard is limiting his fun! Bob otherhand has been crying in forums because he feels that Blizzard is forcing him to do LFR. He's now happy.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:05 pm

halabar wrote:Heard on another podcast from another "HC Raider" that both Flex and LFR should be below the previous tier's heroic gear. So the current heroic is 535 right, that would mean the coming flex would have to be about 530, and the new LFR would be barely above the current LFR.


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May I inquire which podcast was this? I'd like to listen to it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:32 pm

Having 5.4 lfr be the same (or even slightly lower) ilvl as 5.3 heroic seems reasonable. Is that objectionable? I think even having 5.4 lfr be a half step higher than 5.3 normal wouldn't be so horrible.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:48 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:Having 5.4 lfr be the same (or even slightly lower) ilvl as 5.3 heroic seems reasonable. Is that objectionable? I think even having 5.4 lfr be a half step higher than 5.3 normal wouldn't be so horrible.


Arguably, it already is. LFR ilvl is 528, Flex is 540. 5.3 H ToT gear is 535, and H-T-forged is 541.

Yet some people want LFR and Flex to be even lower.

Now you see why people roll their eyes at the others that say that want LFR to be even lower?.

Let me put it in a nice chart actually
T15LFR = 502
T15N = 522

T16LFR = 528
T15NTF = 528
T15H = 535

T16Flex = 540
T15HTF = 541
T16N = 553
T16H = 566


There is almost 40 ilvls of difference between T16LFR and T16Heroic and yet people thing this is not enough.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:30 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Now you see why people roll their eyes at the others that say that want LFR to be even lower?.

There is almost 40 ilvls of difference between T16LFR and T16Heroic and yet people thing this is not enough.
Q.E.D.


Done arguing this, as it's really about pushing normal players down, so the HC elite can feel that much better about themselves.

Go back to the blue post regarding their reasoning on this. Argue your superiority with them.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:38 pm

Posting from phone so don't have the ilvl numbers handy. Looking at that uber convenient chart, I really don't understand why this is a discussion at all. Is there a post where Darielle lays out an alternate solution?

(fwiw I dislike Theck's idea of having loot rolls from one mode affect other mode drops. "Oh I ran LFR and know I'm not going to get X, you should sub in someone else for that fight so they have a chance at loot since I already know I'm not going to get it," and the like. I'm not certain what problem it's supposed to fix.)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:40 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:Posting from phone so don't have the ilvl numbers handy. Looking at that uber convenient chart, I really don't understand why this is a discussion at all. Is there a post where Darielle lays out an alternate solution?


The only solutions Darielle has proposed have been either having LFR and Flex give you even lower ilvl loot, change the loot tables for LFR, or something really wonky dealing with loot lockouts that hurts more people that it benefits.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:24 pm

Worldie wrote:The problem with your method theck, is that it would cut away "high skill" raiders from LFR. That means, LFR will not have those 2-3 key elements that carry the whole raid of bads.
You know it's always like that in LFR: 2-3 DPS/healers do pretty much all the job while most of the others can barely outdps a hunter's pet.

However, the vast majority of drama and discord is caused by the "elite" or "wannabe elite" raiders who think they are doing everyone a favour by just showing up.

I am sure you know them - they are the fringe players on heroic teams who get sat a lot, but when they get a chance will whine if they don't get loot preference, and will roll on literally anything as long as it is purple and they can equip it.

I can deal with wipes if I don't have to deal with those asshats. I'd be more than happy to see the "awesome" raiders hit the highway, never to soil themselves with lesser content ever again.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:41 pm

You are always talking about LFR having an incentive for heroic raiders to do it. How there is a chance at a reward if you choose to trudge thru this content. You claim that the content is not really meant for you but you will do it because Blizz has put that reward there and now you are psychologically compelled to do it, because you don't want to fall behind and such.

What you might not realize is that there is a psychological value of having LFR being just a weaker version of normal and heroic gear. It's something that the rest of the masses aspire to. If you change it to be completely different from the N/H gear, then you're changing that. And that psychological value is the same one you allude to about LFR having an incentive good enough for heroic raiders just for the trinkets alone.

In the end, that LFR trinket that is an incentive for you and other heroic raiders is also the same very incentive a guy that only does LFR has.


I think you're crossing a few streams here. Changing trinkets on LFR would never have to be anything beyond "Instead of Feathers ramping up to 14000 Strength and snapshotting, Feather gives 6000 Strength all the time". If Tier sets become a separate bonus on LFR, that doesn't mean the basic concept of the Tier bonus couldn't apply. All of these would be completely in line with the flavour.

You're making a wild claim about psychology and how a trinket that doesn't offer 100k dps affects what the rest of the masses aspire to. Do you think that a trinket that offers 20k more dps than any other trinket you could be using wouldn't be attractive enough for people who AREN'T raiding, and therefore only have 483's anyway? Because that is a completely ridiculous position to hold.

Don't you remember all the talk in previous expansions about the heroic raiders not wanting the pleb to get access to the same gear they have? or complain that their gear looks just like theirs and such? That sentiment within the heroic raiding community hasnt changed much. Some heroic raiders just gave up on that argument.


Why does what other idiots on the WoW forums and what they used to say in previous expansions have any relevance here? Do you think I'm one of them? ARe you replying to them and not me?

Heard on another podcast from another "HC Raider" that both Flex and LFR should be below the previous tier's heroic gear. So the current heroic is 535 right, that would mean the coming flex would have to be about 530, and the new LFR would be barely above the current LFR. Yeah, that will work really well. :roll:

It amazes me that the HC Raiders are so willing to shit on everyone else just because they don't want to be "tempted" to run LFR. The elitism is just amazing, they are are so eager to fuck everyone else over.


In theory, if Flex WAS at 530, LFR would be at 518 or 523. That's actually a couple of tiers above what previous LFR is, not "barely above".

Charlie has been having terrible luck. He haven't seen heroic trinket droppig nor normal. He has LFR version luckily. He then reads patch 5.4 patch notes and starts to salivate from trinkets. Also Flex mode! 3 chances for upgrade trinket+coins! Then he sees "Loot only from one mode" -> He goes FUUUUUUUUU! and goes to forums. To Charlie feel optimal in progressing in heroics, he now has one option to obtain better trinket. And he's not pleased as he feels that Blizzard is limiting his fun! Bob otherhand has been crying in forums because he feels that Blizzard is forcing him to do LFR. He's now happy.


And if LFR or Flex still existed, he wouldn't join an OpenRaid for old tiers to get his old trinket? His "fun" in running multiple instances of the same instance is being limited? Did that somehow come into play when separating 10-man and 25-man was a decision made? Does Blizzard WANT him to spend more time in multiple instances of the same raid in an expansion they put a lot of effort trying to make sure people wouldn't be doing that?

Do you tend to find people ever interested in running old content? Even back in the days when Dragonspine existed, it wasn't that common to go back into Gruul's Lair except on alt runs where occasionally mains tagged along with a reserve on those pieces? Is that a bad thing? Will this even be a thing?

There is almost 40 ilvls of difference between T16LFR and T16Heroic and yet people thing this is not enough.
Q.E.D.


This is actually a problem in itself. The item level scaling across this expansion as a result of what they've been doing with item upgrades, 4 difficulty modes and Thunderforging has been ridiculous.

The only solutions Darielle has proposed have been either having LFR and Flex give you even lower ilvl loot


Wat?

Here are actual solutions suggested as options:
- Loot lockout.
- Adjust proc rates or effects on LFR trinkets/setbonuses/weapons so that LFR versions aren't massive power jumps.
- Put in different trinkets or even loot tables for LFR.
- I don't have a problem with Theck's/Thels' concepts, so that's another possiblity.

Nothing about LFR or Flex giving lower item level loot. I don't even know where you pulled that from.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:42 pm

Darielle wrote:I think you're crossing a few streams here. Changing trinkets on LFR would never have to be anything beyond "Instead of Feathers ramping up to 14000 Strength and snapshotting, Feather gives 6000 Strength all the time". If Tier sets become a separate bonus on LFR, that doesn't mean the basic concept of the Tier bonus couldn't apply. All of these would be completely in line with the flavour.

You're making a wild claim about psychology and how a trinket that doesn't offer 100k dps affects what the rest of the masses aspire to. Do you think that a trinket that offers 20k more dps than any other trinket you could be using wouldn't be attractive enough for people who AREN'T raiding, and therefore only have 483's anyway? Because that is a completely ridiculous position to hold.


Giving LFR unique gear is a lot of extra work for blizzard, while not at all fixing the problem. Either the new gear is exactly as good as the downleveled gear we'd have for LFR normally, in which case the problem remains the same, the new gear is better than the downleveled gear, in which case the problem is worse, and might force raiders to farm the trinkets even if they have the normal/hc trinkets, or the new gear is worse, in which case you'd be screwing over the LFRers. Heck, even if it's equal or better, but more bland, you'd screw over the LFRers, as they enjoy interesting procs as well, or perhaps even more than HC raiders.



Darielle wrote:In theory, if Flex WAS at 530, LFR would be at 518 or 523. That's actually a couple of tiers above what previous LFR is, not "barely above".


And it would be below the 522 valor items and craftables that a lot of them would have collected in the meantime, making most of 5.4's LFR loot completely useless to them.



Darielle wrote:
Charlie has been having terrible luck. He haven't seen heroic trinket droppig nor normal. He has LFR version luckily. He then reads patch 5.4 patch notes and starts to salivate from trinkets. Also Flex mode! 3 chances for upgrade trinket+coins! Then he sees "Loot only from one mode" -> He goes FUUUUUUUUU! and goes to forums. To Charlie feel optimal in progressing in heroics, he now has one option to obtain better trinket. And he's not pleased as he feels that Blizzard is limiting his fun! Bob otherhand has been crying in forums because he feels that Blizzard is forcing him to do LFR. He's now happy.


And if LFR or Flex still existed, he wouldn't join an OpenRaid for old tiers to get his old trinket? His "fun" in running multiple instances of the same instance is being limited? Did that somehow come into play when separating 10-man and 25-man was a decision made? Does Blizzard WANT him to spend more time in multiple instances of the same raid in an expansion they put a lot of effort trying to make sure people wouldn't be doing that?

Do you tend to find people ever interested in running old content? Even back in the days when Dragonspine existed, it wasn't that common to go back into Gruul's Lair except on alt runs where occasionally mains tagged along with a reserve on those pieces? Is that a bad thing? Will this even be a thing?


Imho, the problem is not with Charlie here. Blizzard just protected Charlie from forcing himself through LFR and Flex every week to fill his missing slots. Charlie is exactly the person people are aiming these solutions for, even though Charlie doesn't realize it.

The problem is making people pick and choose "Do I want to do LFR or Flex for loot this week? Or am I going to wait and hope a nice spot opens up on a Normal run before the week is over, even if that means I don't have time left to run Flex after?"

The problem is also with guilds saying "D P Q S and Y are going to get these drops. Everyone else disable your loot distribution for next boss, so you can still run it on LFR", or if loot distribution can't be disabled per boss: "Groups 1, 2 and 3, you are going to run LFR on bosses 1-7 this week. Groups 4, 5 and the backup people, you are going to run LFR on bosses 8-14 this week. We'll funnel all the gear to the other half of the team. Next week, we're going to switch you guys around." And the HC guilds that do put time in farming those last trinkets in LFR will certainly use this method as well. It will just be more time consuming to figure out everything, rather than making things less time consuming. Therefor, it doesn't solve the issue.



Darielle wrote:Loot lockout.


It's been explained several times that Loot lockout brings a ton of issues, and still encourages HC raiders to run LFR, just with an extra complex "who are going to be loot eligible for the next boss" system, so this is not a solution.



Darielle wrote:- Adjust proc rates or effects on LFR trinkets/setbonuses/weapons so that LFR versions aren't massive power jumps.
- Put in different trinkets or even loot tables for LFR.

Nothing about LFR or Flex giving lower item level loot. I don't even know where you pulled that from.


If you're asking to put in weaker versions, ain't that the same as asking to put in lower ilvls? You're basically asking for LFR gear to be nerfed, just so HC raiders are less likely to go after it. If you're asking you put in different versions that aren't weaker, then how would that fix the problem at all?



Darielle wrote:- I don't have a problem with Theck's/Thels' concepts, so that's another possiblity.


The "Get your free LFR or Flex gear with your Normal/HC clear" would indeed fix the entire issue, but feels a little too much like "Here, have tons of extra gear for free." I could see it happening with free LFR loot in Normal/HC, but free LFR loot in Flex and free Flex loot in Normal/HC feels a little over the top to me.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:02 am

Darielle wrote:In theory, if Flex WAS at 530, LFR would be at 518 or 523. That's actually a couple of tiers above what previous LFR is, not "barely above".
I have been raiding LFR only since 5.0 and I'm decked almost fully in 516 and 522 because SPA and Oondasta&Nalak. (Exeptions are trinkets and two tier pieces) LFR would give me only minimal upgrades then.

Darielle wrote:And if LFR or Flex still existed, he wouldn't join an OpenRaid for old tiers to get his old trinket? His "fun" in running multiple instances of the same instance is being limited? Did that somehow come into play when separating 10-man and 25-man was a decision made? Does Blizzard WANT him to spend more time in multiple instances of the same raid in an expansion they put a lot of effort trying to make sure people wouldn't be doing that?


25-man and 10-man separation ruined peoples fun if I remeber correctly. In Asia, that was the reason why they brought it back and why 25-man drops better loot. Also, I'm making wild guess that running through LFR/Flex is going to be much easier than running OpenRaid. Just my guess, haven't ever run those. Heck, I have seen people complaining that valor cap is no fun as they like running raids/scenarios/instaces and it's limiting their fun.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:57 am

Giving LFR unique gear is a lot of extra work for blizzard, while not at all fixing the problem. Either the new gear is exactly as good as the downleveled gear we'd have for LFR normally, in which case the problem remains the same, the new gear is better than the downleveled gear, in which case the problem is worse, and might force raiders to farm the trinkets even if they have the normal/hc trinkets, or the new gear is worse, in which case you'd be screwing over the LFRers. Heck, even if it's equal or better, but more bland, you'd screw over the LFRers, as they enjoy interesting procs as well, or perhaps even more than HC raiders.


The work done in creating new items for the patch involves copying items over, allocating new stats and then scaling over. As a process, this effort isn't changed. It WOULD be extra effort if they NOW went in and tried to change stats in the Siege of Orgrimmar patch, but I think we can be rest assured that we're not talking about something that's on the cards for next patch anyway.

If the new gear is better by virtue of the fact that a raider hasn't had a new trinket for 7 months, that is an entirely different situation from "Trinkets are awesome for everyone". At the absolute worst case, you haven't had 100% success, you've had 80% success. That a solution won't perfectly pull off every case isn't an argument against it.

To argue that LFR players might enjoy interesting procs more than Heroic raiders is extremely silly. The interest level of a proc isn't even tied to power anyway - DBW was interesting simply by virtue of the fact that you turned into a Taunka.

And it would be below the 522 valor items and craftables that a lot of them would have collected in the meantime, making most of 5.4's LFR loot completely useless to them.
....
I have been raiding LFR only since 5.0 and I'm decked almost fully in 516 and 522 because SPA and Oondasta&Nalak. (Exeptions are trinkets and two tier pieces) LFR would give me only minimal upgrades then.


518 or 523 Tier gear, trinkets, etc. are certainly going to be better than 522 Valor items or craftables. Unless "use" is relegated to "increased my item level". Even by virtue of simply sockets and itemisation, these so-called "minimal upgrades" should easily be a 20% or more performance boost, and that's not minimal.

Bearing in mind of course that they certainly aren't expecting the average LFR raider to actually BE fully decked out, or to also be farming Oondasta/Nalak. Shado-Pan Assault is also an outlier in Valor slot availability - I wouldn't expect that to be the case in the game going forward.

The problem is making people pick and choose "Do I want to do LFR or Flex for loot this week? Or am I going to wait and hope a nice spot opens up on a Normal run before the week is over, even if that means I don't have time left to run Flex after?"

The problem is also with guilds saying "D P Q S and Y are going to get these drops. Everyone else disable your loot distribution for next boss, so you can still run it on LFR", or if loot distribution can't be disabled per boss: "Groups 1, 2 and 3, you are going to run LFR on bosses 1-7 this week. Groups 4, 5 and the backup people, you are going to run LFR on bosses 8-14 this week. We'll funnel all the gear to the other half of the team. Next week, we're going to switch you guys around." And the HC guilds that do put time in farming those last trinkets in LFR will certainly use this method as well. It will just be more time consuming to figure out everything, rather than making things less time consuming. Therefor, it doesn't solve the issue.


You still haven't been convincing in showing how this is making things more time consuming for anyone compared to what they currently do now. Right now, everyone runs those LFR bosses, AND said raid group cherry picks Normal mode groups to maximise loot allocation anyway. At the worst case, you're still making the time commitment less.

The entire point of the various difficulty modes is that people DO choose the difficulty mode that most suits them. If Charlie is a Flex raider, he's meant to be doing Flex. His pugs are meant to be pugging Flex and full clearing Flex instead of full clearing Normal. If he's capable of full clearing Normal mode pugs, he's meant to be doing Normal mode, and not Normal mode on top of Flex mode.

25-man and 10-man separation ruined peoples fun if I remeber correctly. In Asia, that was the reason why they brought it back and why 25-man drops better loot. Also, I'm making wild guess that running through LFR/Flex is going to be much easier than running OpenRaid. Just my guess, haven't ever run those. Heck, I have seen people complaining that valor cap is no fun as they like running raids/scenarios/instaces and it's limiting their fun.


Consider then why Valor cap is still in the game. Also, you're confusing the Asia lockout structure somewhat.

If you're asking to put in weaker versions, ain't that the same as asking to put in lower ilvls? You're basically asking for LFR gear to be nerfed, just so HC raiders are less likely to go after it


Is having a 502 Rune offer the same benefit as a 502 Talisman of Bloodlust the same thing as lowering the item levels of the entirely of LFR mode?
Because I don't buy that at all.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby oldboyz » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:22 am

if any new rule, it has to be simple :D

forget smart proposal if it can't be done in 1 sentence, cristal clear, and understable by a dumb 10year old kid or Joe average casual guy



make available LFR wwayyyyy way after normal opening! (like 1month minimal for 1st lfr wing, then every new wing by 3 weeks)
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