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LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:28 am

Yeah, but in the end, you reach a point where you don't need to do it anymore! The incentive is gone once you reach your goal/reason to do X activity.

I don't do LFR anymore on any of my toons because I got my legendary cloak and all the items I needed. Even before getting my legendary cloak, I was only doing 2 LFR wings out of the 4 available.

You come up with this concept that people will be overwhelmed and forced to run ALL LFRS ALL THE TIME, plus Flex, plus Normal/Heroic -- when blizz said that Flex and LFR will be opened by parts, and not all at the same time. Chances are, you might not need to do LFR/Flex if you get lucky enough to get what you need out of it in the first couple of runs.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:29 am

It's not supposed to a replacement to LFR...it's an option for people who have fluctuating raid teams but don't want to actually go to a normal raid set up.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:30 am

I still think, come next expansion, that Flex will replace normal modes.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:32 am

Darielle wrote:
Flex wrote:Can we stop repeating arguments we've had before but with the term LFR instead of Flex.


Interestingly, the fact that they've been had before doesn't actually diminish them, considering that Flex adds on top of what already exists and doesn't even act as a replacement for LFR.


But the arguments are as uninteresting now as they were then.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:33 am

I swear the only way heroic raiders are gonna be happy with flex/lfr is those modes offer completely different loot, including non-tier gear and none of the trinkets from Normal/Heroic modes. And Blizz already nixed that.

Although Tier16 bonuses are completely meh for Paladins this time around =P
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:35 am

Blizzard has said non-LFR raids will have extra stuff not obtainable in LFR...
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:36 am

I don't see that lasting long though, Flex.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:40 am

Well, it already kind of happens. Normals/Heroics get to see BoP random drops more often than LFR.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:44 am

Fenrìr wrote:It's not supposed to a replacement to LFR...it's an option for people who have fluctuating raid teams but don't want to actually go to a normal raid set up.


Context.

Flex isn't supposed to be a replacement for LFR, but that's not what was being said. The additional loot doesn't take on the format of an either/or setup where you either try your second time in Flex or try a second time in LFR, it adds on so that you can try a second time in Flex, and if that doesn't payout, you try a third time in LFR.

Yeah, but in the end, you reach a point where you don't need to do it anymore! The incentive is gone once you reach your goal/reason to do X activity.

I don't do LFR anymore on any of my toons because I got my legendary cloak and all the items I needed. Even before getting my legendary cloak, I was only doing 2 LFR wings out of the 4 available.

You come up with this concept that people will be overwhelmed and forced to run ALL LFRS ALL THE TIME, plus Flex, plus Normal/Heroic -- when blizz said that Flex and LFR will be opened by parts, and not all at the same time. Chances are, you might not need to do LFR/Flex if you get lucky enough to get what you need out of it in the first couple of runs.


And you say this as a class that gets entirely broken with a trinket? Do you think the chance to get things within the first few runs is particularly high to the point that it won't leave you MUCH more likely to still not have the item at the end of it? Did your legendary cloak take just a couple of weeks to complete from 5.2? I doubt it. Do you think you got particularly lucky on Secrets/Runestones, unlike the people who still haven't finished since it hasn't even been that long since Lei Shen got adjusted for his guaranteed drop yet? You think that you did it on more than one character diminishes the time you spent in it, as opposed to accentuating it?

You're coming up with a concept that you want to see - a supposed extreme about all lfr's all the time, that no one has actually suggested. It even allows you to ignore the entire concept of a loot lockout (which was applied for the exact reason discussed for the Legendary quest) and any and every other possiblity and go on with nonsense like "I swear the only way heroic raiders are gonna be happy with flex/lfr is those modes offer completely different loot, including non-tier gear and none of the trinkets from Normal/Heroic modes. And Blizz already nixed that" based on your imaginary concept of the douchebag hardcore raider, as if hardcore raiders were even one entity to begin with.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:54 am

Well, tell me how would you stop heroic raiders from complaining about people doing LFR/Flex and getting gear from it?

There needs to be a carrot at the end of the stick, regardless of what kind of raider you are.

What's more, seeing it from Blizz' perspective, it's better to piss off the heroic raiders than lfr/flex/normal raiders seeing as heroic raiders make the smallest of the group, population wise.

And if I mention the whole LFR ALL THE TIME is because that was an argument back in Dragon Soul! How heroic raiders were forced to do LFR to get tier pieces/trinkets. Oh the humanity!

Heroic raiders are the ones making a mountain out of a molehill regarding having the chance to do LFR/Flex just to get an extra piece of gear, and no one else. What's that... an extra hour of game time?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:55 am

Darielle wrote:A system which has an incentive to do X is going to have people doing X. Turning that around and going "Why are you doing this if you don't want to?" is a little bit silly.


This is where I jump of any train. If you don't want to do it then don't fucking do it. This is always a no-win situation on Blizzard's end where Group A will bitch that Blizzard is limiting them for no reason if Blizzard decides to limit it and Group B will bitch that they are "forced" to do it if Blizzard doesn't limit it. Eventually players have to step up and take responsibility for their own decision to run the same raid content 3+ times a week to get that trinket or tier set bonus.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:58 am

Flex wrote:
Darielle wrote:A system which has an incentive to do X is going to have people doing X. Turning that around and going "Why are you doing this if you don't want to?" is a little bit silly.


This is where I jump of any train. If you don't want to do it then don't fucking do it. This is always a no-win situation on Blizzard's end where Group A will bitch that Blizzard is limiting them for no reason if Blizzard decides to limit it and Group B will bitch that they are "forced" to do it if Blizzard doesn't limit it. Eventually players have to step up and take responsibility for their own decision to run the same raid content 3+ times a week to get that trinket or tier set bonus.


And this was the original intention behind my "blaming Lays because you cannot just eat one chip" comment.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:11 am

Well, tell me how would you stop heroic raiders from complaining about people doing LFR/Flex and getting gear from it?

There needs to be a carrot at the end of the stick, regardless of what kind of raider you are.

What's more, seeing it from Blizz' perspective, it's better to piss off the heroic raiders than lfr/flex/normal raiders seeing as heroic raiders make the smallest of the group, population wise.


Why piss off any raiders? Do you actually think a loot lockout so that you only have 1 shot at a trinket every week would make people complain that they CAN'T farm 3 modes for 3 shots every week?

And if I mention the whole LFR ALL THE TIME is because that was an argument back in Dragon Soul! How heroic raiders were forced to do LFR to get tier pieces/trinkets. Oh the humanity!


So what, we're responding to 2-3 year old arguments from people on WoW's General Discussion now?

Heroic raiders are the ones making a mountain out of a molehill regarding having the chance to do LFR/Flex just to get an extra piece of gear, and no one else. What's that... an extra hour of game time?


*palmface*

Heroic raiders pointing out that Flex adds to LFR are pointing out that it's an hour more of game time on top of the hour more of game time that they're already spending on something boring. Incentivising people to do more boredom doesn't make them more attached to the game when not raiding - which was the original premise for incentivising non-raid activities to begin with.

This is where I jump of any train. If you don't want to do it then don't fucking do it. This is always a no-win situation on Blizzard's end where Group A will bitch that Blizzard is limiting them for no reason if Blizzard decides to limit it and Group B will bitch that they are "forced" to do it if Blizzard doesn't limit it. Eventually players have to step up and take responsibility for their own decision to run the same raid content 3+ times a week to get that trinket or tier set bonus.


"A system which has an incentive to do X is going to have people doing X. Turning that around and going "Why are you doing this if you don't want to?" is a little bit silly."

Do you think Blizzard feels no-win and losing out by limiting Valor to 1000 a week currently? Or that they're losing out because people are so annoyed that they can't farm both 10-man and 25-man every week? Or that they lost out by limiting the Elder Charms grind? Or revamping Consumables? Or having a weekly lockout at all on loot?

The reason people follow a system that they have incentive to is that you have put the incentive in the system so that they will do it where they otherwise don't want to. It's asinine to complain about players complaining about a system when the point of that incentive is so that they will go there.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:17 am

Darielle wrote:Do you think Blizzard feels no-win and losing out by limiting Valor to 1000 a week currently? Or that they're losing out because people are so annoyed that they can't farm both 10-man and 25-man every week? Or that they lost out by limiting the Elder Charms grind?


Yes. I think in an ideal game environment where people do only the things in the game that they want to do there would be zero limits placed on those.

Darielle wrote:The reason people follow a system that they have incentive to is that you have put the incentive in the system so that they will do it where they otherwise don't want to. It's asinine to complain about players complaining about a system when the point of that system is so that they will go there.


Why are you defending people doing things they don't want to? Stop it! People doing things they don't want to and complaining about it are the reason Blizzard limits things in the first place. Take some god damn responsibility for doing things you don't want to do and quit looking to Blizzard to save you from yourself.

Being a normal mode raider who is still progressing through ToT I'd fall into the heavily incentivized group who would totally benefit from doing LFR, except I don't because it is fucking awful.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:28 am

Why are you defending people doing things they don't want to? Stop it! People doing things they don't want to and complaining about it are the reason Blizzard limits things in the first place. Take some god damn responsibility for doing things you don't want to do and quit looking to Blizzard to save you from yourself.


What is the reason they do things they don't want to do? Because incentive.
What is the purpose behind incentivising Heroic players into things they don't want to do? Because Blizzard was afraid that raiders who raid and then logoff are bored by the game.
Does having them do LFR keep them interested in the game? No.

Where is the player at fault for creating the incentive? He or she is just doing things as the game wants him/her to do.

Yes. I think in an ideal game environment where people do only the things in the game that they want to do there would be zero limits placed on those.


That's not an ideal game environment. Ideal game environments are where people enjoy the things they want to do.

Being a normal mode raider who is still progressing through ToT I'd fall into the heavily incentivized group who would totally benefit from doing LFR, except I don't because it is fucking awful.


You know this is meaningless right?

Not only are many Heroic raiders also of similar opinion, it doesn't have any bearing on the system. If you don't want to do LFR when there's an incentive, you will still not want to do LFR if there's no incentive. More, that not 100% of people are enticed by an incentive doesn't make the incentive any lesser.
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