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LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:56 am

Ironshield wrote:
Newsom wrote:
theckhd wrote:In any event, I'm still waiting for feedback on my concept of automatically making LFR/Flex rolls on a boss in normal or heroic (or increasing bonus roll chance against that boss). It seems like that addresses the problem (Heroic raiders feel a strong incentive to re-run meaningless content and potentially cause burnout) without having any adverse effect on LFR/Flex raiders.


While this would be awesome, I don't think it will happen because of one reason: it would increase LFR queue times.

And like Worldie points out it would probably aslo increase fail rates (it doesn't hurt having overgeared heroic raiders in your LFR...)

What might work is giving the Flex loot roll in Normal / Heroic as the incentive for running flex is going to be much more guild collaboration than JUST loot.

The problem with loot lockouts is that is pretty much goes against the express aim of Flex / LFR of being a fun and easy option for joining friends to raid without all the organisation. If there is a loot lockout then I either need to LFR / Flex at the beginning or end of the week or screw with the chance of joining / missing the main raid at a different time of the week. This mean I now have to PLAN per week when I do LFR / Flex if at all, rather than just joining friends on an ad hoc basis.

On a different tack, I am looking forward to Flex raids, it will be a more relaxed version of the raid, but without the faceroll neutering of mechanics that is LFR. I'm guessing the DPS checks etc... will still be quite easy but you won't just be able to ignore kicking turtles on Tortos for instance.


Agreed.

But there are others here that would rather nuke Flex and LFR so they aren't tempted to do it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:06 pm

Worldie wrote:The problem with your method theck, is that it would cut away "high skill" raiders from LFR. That means, LFR will not have those 2-3 key elements that carry the whole raid of bads.
You know it's always like that in LFR: 2-3 DPS/healers do pretty much all the job while most of the others can barely outdps a hunter's pet.


That would be the case with any actually working solution that would remove the incentive from normal/HC raiders to go Flex.

Though ain't that primarily a bad design, if LFR is depending on people that run normal/HC and are going LFR simply for the tier or trinket drops?

Besides, perhaps if they don't need to run LFR on their mains, they could run it on their alts instead.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Lieris » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:04 pm

I don't really understand why both LFR and Flex exist. It seems to me like Flex is LFR done right, that is a beginner's mode ideal for PUGs and alts, in which you don't need to fill a raid and don't have to worry about people leaving mid-raid. It isn't anti-social like LFR as you need to make the group yourselves and you need to travel to the instances.

I may have got the wrong end of the stick though because I don't follow the game closely anymore (I just found out about Flex today) but it seems to me that they can safely remove LFR from the game if Flex proves to be a success.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:53 pm

They all have different audiences. Flex still requires you to find a group of 9+ other people to do content. LFR is log in, queue, run instance, log out. It works well for people who haven't the time or inclination to join a larger guild, or trawl trade chat to find a group.

If the devs had their druthers I suspect they would rather have Flex than LFR, but that barn done burnt down.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Newsom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:07 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:LFR would still be a relatively easy way to get 90 Valor even without needing loot. I know I mainly ran it for the Valor - preferred it to dailies.


Someone hasn't discovered heroic scenarios. :P
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Xfighter » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:24 pm

In regards to LFR; I haven't felt forced to run it for main spec as a heroic raider since 5.0 or so. I think I ran each wing of ToT LFR once when they opened up, and then didn't bother for 2+ months afterwards. Then again, the tier bonuses this tier weren't very appealing anyways, and the trinkets worthwhile have the proc rates already quite low for prot, so that wasn't a factor. I can see why it is one for other specs though, as some of the bonuses/procs are pretty amazing regardless of the actual proc rate of it.


I'd honestly hate having the shared loot lockout, as it does make gearing for off-specs quite a bit harder, especially as a person doing heroic 10-man, where drops that are useful are rather rare. I haven't used LFR to gear my main-offspec much, seeing as most prot gear can beat out LFR-level "ret" gear/overlaps it anyways.

Lately I've just been doing LFRs on my main because it's a nice change of pace, I can log them and make myself look good /flex, and its a way to gear my holy set with some friends, while tanking, and without waiting weeks for every caster/healer who share common items rings/necks/trinkets/shields/weapons/etc with it.




I could agree with some form of lockout right at the release of a tier (5.0, 5.2, etc) so that if you touch heroic, you get locked out from running the LFRs, or something similar.

Hell another solution could be if you kill a boss on LFR, you're not able to use a bonus roll on that boss in heroic mode, although it's a bit of an unintuitive solution to a problem that only exists for most "hardcore" for a few weeks or so (usually).
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:17 am

I think there are a lot of points on both sides being ignored by each of you.

One point that I think is quite significant, Darielle, and that you are either ignoring, or have forgotten, is that LFR is now the intended catchup mechanism. A lot of the suggestions you are highlighting would mean a need for another catchup mechanism.


I don't see how that's being ignored, since independence would allow for LFR to have better gear, allow for it to be available sooner, etc.
If you mean being able to double up runs as a catchup mechanism, a lot of that is a result of the fact that LFR is the only good catchup mechanism, and the others aren't as effective. You can't use Valor stuff without already running LFR, and Heroic Scenarios are not very good as a catchup mechanism.

They've funneled themselves into too much through LFR, they need other effective catchup mechanisms anyway, if only to give people who don't liek raiding something to do.

But understand that you're asking Blizz to fundamentally change LFR over something relatively small, at least in the big scheme of things, because you don't want to be "incentivized" to do it without willing to admit that in doing so, you're also changing the value of lfr rewards for everyone else as well -- when in reality LFR is not really designed with heroic raiders in mind.

Now, that trinket is a end of expac thing -- and such brokenness is unlikely to be repeated for the next several tiers come the next expac, but you want to change it anyways.


This is a big reason why it's important to understand that any change is still taking character progression for its intended audience in mind. Having a 20k dps upgrade trinket instead of a 50k dps doesn't remove character progression in any way. Especially if they're likely to be still using 463's or 483's etc.

And no, trinkets are not an end of expansion thing. Throne has proven that very much. Even ToC and Ulduar had amazing trinkets - Death's Verdict being a great example.

Remember, this game is for everyone -- in the current setup, heroic raiders are the ones "affected" by LFR having desirable enough loot, I believe Ion does realize its a problem, but doesn't sees it as a big enough problem to be addressed (oh my! 3 chances a loot, how horrible!)


This is one of the contradictions I mentioned. We had 10-mans and 25-mans being separate once, and that was considered too much. We've had many other activities that were streamlined or changed to prevent them being too much on top of raiding. When there ARE solutions that would preserve the mode for its intended audience, and those solutions were much more invasive for people unaffected by the changes, what's special about this?

Another solution could be to have Blizz neuter the trinket so it becomes meh, that way you won't be interested in the LFR version of it. How's that?

Remember, your solutions tend to be pretty heavy handed in that it ultimately changes LFR for the people it's really intended just for because some people will really value a specific trinket regardless of its source (LFR/Flex/Normal/Heroic).


I believe that was along the lines of what I suggested as a possiblity. Where UVLS becomes a "proc X crit rating more frequently" or Rune becomes "proc X, higher of your Haste, Mastery, Crit", etc.

So, if you want blizz to listen to you, then you need to come up with a solution that doesnt affect LFR/Flex for the people it mainly intended for, otherwise they will go with the lesser of evils and go with what they currently have, much to your chagrin.


I still haven't seen ANY kind of explanation for why you think anything suggested would make LFR/Flex something no one would run.

Right, but that information is part of your character's stored data, not part of the instance tech. Hence why you can know that information outside of the instance (i.e. at the LFR queue interface), but LFR/Flex can't share lockouts with normal/heroic. It's a technical limitation.


Yes, but your Lockout on individual bosses is also stored character data. If I can see that I have up to Primordius down on Heroic this week, the game can certainly use that to prevent the individual roll coming up or prevent the eligibility flag on whether I can roll or have the loot Master Looted to me etc.
I wouldn't see it as a technical hurdle so much as a fundamental "Not something they want to do atm".

The problem with your method theck, is that it would cut away "high skill" raiders from LFR. That means, LFR will not have those 2-3 key elements that carry the whole raid of bads.
You know it's always like that in LFR: 2-3 DPS/healers do pretty much all the job while most of the others can barely outdps a hunter's pet.


This is the reason they nerf LFR though in the cases of stuff like Garalon etc., and they put in Determination. They might have to make LFR even easier baseline, but that's not really a problem on their end.

LFR's meant to be run by its intended audience. It's going to remain easy to do for its intended audience, and it certainly doesn't need other people in there carrying them. And it's a little bit silly to expect those people to, anyway.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:19 am

Darielle, many loot changes you lists would simply transfer from:"OMG, Blizz! I need to run Flex&LFR to get X! Unfun!" to "OMG, Blizz! I need to run previous tier HC again for X! Unfun!".
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Worldie » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:50 am

Darielle wrote:
This is the reason they nerf LFR though in the cases of stuff like Garalon etc., and they put in Determination. They might have to make LFR even easier baseline, but that's not really a problem on their end.

LFR's meant to be run by its intended audience. It's going to remain easy to do for its intended audience, and it certainly doesn't need other people in there carrying them. And it's a little bit silly to expect those people to, anyway.

Yet it's how it works.

Have you ever tried doing LFR in the last part of the reset, when all proper raiders have already done it? I've seen groups getting several stacks of determination even on stuff like horridon or tortos.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:09 am

Darielle wrote:
I think there are a lot of points on both sides being ignored by each of you.

One point that I think is quite significant, Darielle, and that you are either ignoring, or have forgotten, is that LFR is now the intended catchup mechanism. A lot of the suggestions you are highlighting would mean a need for another catchup mechanism.


I don't see how that's being ignored, since independence would allow for LFR to have better gear, allow for it to be available sooner, etc.
If you mean being able to double up runs as a catchup mechanism, a lot of that is a result of the fact that LFR is the only good catchup mechanism, and the others aren't as effective. You can't use Valor stuff without already running LFR, and Heroic Scenarios are not very good as a catchup mechanism.

They've funneled themselves into too much through LFR, they need other effective catchup mechanisms anyway, if only to give people who don't liek raiding something to do.


I'll definately agree on the last part, my point was merely, that while this not being teh case would be better, it is the case, and not just by default, by intended design.

(Also, I have to admit, I've never been a great fan of LFR - I'm actually scared to go into LFR due to the high failure rates I've been hearing about, and the fact that I'm an "undergeared noob" (or so I would look), since I never completed T14, and have only just gotten the 502 boots.. 2 days? ago. Also, even when I was tanking heroic DS, I did not want to tank LFR DS - I dislike the social conventions (or rather the lack of) in LFR, so no way I would be tanking. Healing, sure, possibly, but really, dps'ing is the 'safest' when you know what to do with your class, because it will show on the meters.)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Worldie » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:30 am

Tanking LFR on your own can be VERY frustrating due to the amount of tanks who just spam taunt every 8 seconds or have no clue of positioning and tank transitioning.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:40 am

Worldie wrote:
Darielle wrote:
This is the reason they nerf LFR though in the cases of stuff like Garalon etc., and they put in Determination. They might have to make LFR even easier baseline, but that's not really a problem on their end.

LFR's meant to be run by its intended audience. It's going to remain easy to do for its intended audience, and it certainly doesn't need other people in there carrying them. And it's a little bit silly to expect those people to, anyway.

Yet it's how it works.

Have you ever tried doing LFR in the last part of the reset, when all proper raiders have already done it? I've seen groups getting several stacks of determination even on stuff like horridon or tortos.


I have done LFR many times and yet I haven't seen such total disasters. Occasional wipe on Horridon as leet "hc raiders" decide that DPSing Horridon only is leet and War-God showing up with adds still pouring is how it's done properly. Tortos wipes when ninja pulled by "hc raiders" so they can top meters with tortos+all bats. Yet all of those times are definately minority. Most runs have been quite smooth and while I have spotted few asshats, they aren't really that big a deal. Haven't been kicked out of any runs either so my experience differs quite wastly what has been said here. :)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:28 am

The closer you're to the weekly reset the higher the chances of failure in LFR.

When I'd do LFR on tuesdays, my LFR groups, full of strangers, would not wipe, and I'd get 4 different groups as I was doing LFR by myself...

When I tried that on Sunday, We would get 3-4 wipes per LFR.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:50 am

Darielle wrote:I don't see how that's being ignored, since independence would allow for LFR to have better gear, allow for it to be available sooner, etc. If you mean being able to double up runs as a catchup mechanism, a lot of that is a result of the fact that LFR is the only good catchup mechanism, and the others aren't as effective. You can't use Valor stuff without already running LFR, and Heroic Scenarios are not very good as a catchup mechanism.

They've funneled themselves into too much through LFR, they need other effective catchup mechanisms anyway, if only to give people who don't liek raiding something to do.

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This is the reason they nerf LFR though in the cases of stuff like Garalon etc., and they put in Determination. They might have to make LFR even easier baseline, but that's not really a problem on their end.

LFR's meant to be run by its intended audience. It's going to remain easy to do for its intended audience, and it certainly doesn't need other people in there carrying them. And it's a little bit silly to expect those people to, anyway.


That sounds pretty contradictory, specially because of what you currently think of LFR.

Again, Blizz is taking the lesser of evils approach. Not only is their current take on heroic concerns the path of least resistance for them - but some of the solutions offered here would either devalue LFR drastically (pretty much how LFR feels on Monday) -or- put more extra work on the dev team, with new art for the new stuff and itemization and such for an entirely new loot table that is exclusive to a single tier of difficulty.

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:34 am

Darielle, many loot changes you lists would simply transfer from:"OMG, Blizz! I need to run Flex&LFR to get X! Unfun!" to "OMG, Blizz! I need to run previous tier HC again for X! Unfun!".


Huh?

Old tiers have always had stuff, but they're basically never run by people. We've gotten well past the days when Dragonspine Trophy and Grim Toll and Death's Verdict were things. I don't see why you think people would complain about, or actually run old raid tiers. I mean, do you foresee people running T15 Heroic for UVLS next patch right now, even if LFR exists? After all, 535 UVLS would probably be pretty close to comparable to a 528 trinket. Or foresee that they'll start doing it just because they have more time if they're not running LFR?

Yet it's how it works.

Have you ever tried doing LFR in the last part of the reset, when all proper raiders have already done it? I've seen groups getting several stacks of determination even on stuff like horridon or tortos.


Sure, but that's the point of Determination. If a group wipes, it's meant to make it unwipeable over time. If Heroic Raiders not carrying people means LFR wipes more, they'll just nerf the baseline mechanics and health even further in a similar way to how Bouncing Bolt was gutted, so I'm not really sure that THAT is an issue. There's certainly no floor on how much they can nerf it if they feel like it.

If no Heroic Raiders were doing LFR, a hypothetical LFR Horridon might right now have 20% less health on all adds and all the aoe effects gutted by another 50%, and Horridon would shield himself at 31% until all doors were closed to prevent groups being silly enough to wipe themselves.

That sounds pretty contradictory, specially because of what you currently think of LFR.

Again, Blizz is taking the lesser of evils approach. Not only is their current take on heroic concerns the path of least resistance for them - but some of the solutions offered here would either devalue LFR drastically (pretty much how LFR feels on Monday) -or- put more extra work on the dev team, with new art for the new stuff and itemization and such for an entirely new loot table that is exclusive to a single tier of difficulty.


How is it contradictory? The difficulty of LFR is as low as they feel they can make it while making it unwipeable, and Determination is their safety net to ensure that eventually a group will succeed. The loot itself isn't put low just because it's easy, they're doing things like actively putting it at the lowest possible value because they want to ensure that it doesn't interfere with other modes as well. With LFR being divested, it can straight up have whatever feels appropriate - if they want to give it 535 instead of 528, they can. Right now, that's not an option for them.

Again, HOW is LFR devalued? You keep saying this, but you refuse to say why you feel that it would be. It would retain its character progression, it would remain for its intended audience, and the tuning will always be at "Gut mechanics and allow any LFR group to succeed", so what are you even imagining here?
And what new art? Why would there need to be new art? Why can they not use the same art that they're already making different colours of anyway? Why do you think they would be doing extra work on itemisation beyond the work they're already doing to copy items into a new tier, change them, scale things for the 3, now going to be 4, different levels and adjust proc rates and all that for the different versions of gear anyway? Do you think they'll design an LFR Rune, work on it, and then make a completely new item to replace it instead of just copying Matrix Restabilizer from the start instead? Copying a trinket, and then creating a new effect for something like Rune is more effort than copying a trinket and scaling an existing effect. I don't get what you're seeing here, because it makes no sense unless I assume Blizzard are so amateurish that it's a miracle the game is still afloat.
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