LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby theckhd » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:47 am

Darielle wrote:
Regarding sharing lockouts: I wouldn't expect it. LFR is a different set of instance tech than normal/heroic, which is why they don't share lockouts. Since Flex uses the same individual roll setup as LFR, it's a good bet that it's on the same tech tree as LFR, which means it can't share a lockout with normal/heroic. It could probably share a lockout with LFR, but that would defeat the purpose.


They ARE able to detect that you've killed a boss on any mode however - that's what applied to Legendary quest items. Hypothetical tech required would simply have to use that detection to enable whether your individual Loot Roll comes up the same way it does for having already killed the boss in LFR.


Right, but that information is part of your character's stored data, not part of the instance tech. Hence why you can know that information outside of the instance (i.e. at the LFR queue interface), but LFR/Flex can't share lockouts with normal/heroic. It's a technical limitation.

In any event, I'm still waiting for feedback on my concept of automatically making LFR/Flex rolls on a boss in normal or heroic (or increasing bonus roll chance against that boss). It seems like that addresses the problem (Heroic raiders feel a strong incentive to re-run meaningless content and potentially cause burnout) without having any adverse effect on LFR/Flex raiders.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:49 am

See? I like Theck's solution better! =D
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:13 am

Theck is stealing my idea now. :P

Though my suggestion was for Normal/HC to give the LFR drops as free extra (assuming LFR is available for that boss, and you haven't killed the boss yet on LFR). You basically get your LFR loot while doing Normal/HC. This way, you only have to farm 1 step lower than current content, just like it is now. You'd farm Flex next to Normal/HC instead of LFR. People that focus on Flex might farm LFR next to Flex.

I think giving Flex loot for free in Normal/HC is a bit overkill. Sure, it would remove all incentive to ever run Flex and LFR, save for helping out friends, but it's a little too much extra free loot...

The bonus on the charm rolls... That would feel odd to me. It would penalize me for running LFR/Flex with some friends before the raid night. And what about the bosses I'm not coining for? Can I still run those on LFR? (Though admittedly, I shouldn't be needing gear from more than 3 different bosses in LFR if I run Normal/HC.)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:27 am

theckhd wrote:In any event, I'm still waiting for feedback on my concept of automatically making LFR/Flex rolls on a boss in normal or heroic (or increasing bonus roll chance against that boss). It seems like that addresses the problem (Heroic raiders feel a strong incentive to re-run meaningless content and potentially cause burnout) without having any adverse effect on LFR/Flex raiders.


I'm not sure I like the idea of getting a 'free' LFR/Flex roll just for downing the normal/heroic boss. The reason is because while it would definitely help make the normal/heroic raiders who don't want to run LFR/Flex not do thost things for the loot (and possibly make those on the edge swing out of it), it would literally be giving something to them for free: namely a chance at the 'lesser' reward from a boss you didn't kill (though in all likelyhood could quite easily), on top of the 'standard' reward chance simply because they are doing it on a higher difficulty. In other words, you'd be getting a cumulative reward - which seems kind of odd to me.

I think I'd rather see a chance on your bonus rolls (which would still require effort outside the raid instance in order to get coins, and be on an individual basis) to get the LFR/Flex loot *or* normal/heroic items (they'd have to have different chances, of course). That way you'd still have to do *something* outside of walking into your raid to see some increased chance at useful loot, but you'd not have to do LFR/Flex to get it. Heck, maybe even extend that down to Flex, letting it have a chance of LFR loot (if different ilvls).
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:30 am

The problem with your method theck, is that it would cut away "high skill" raiders from LFR. That means, LFR will not have those 2-3 key elements that carry the whole raid of bads.
You know it's always like that in LFR: 2-3 DPS/healers do pretty much all the job while most of the others can barely outdps a hunter's pet.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:38 am

Worldie wrote:The problem with your method theck, is that it would cut away "high skill" raiders from LFR. That means, LFR will not have those 2-3 key elements that carry the whole raid of bads.
You know it's always like that in LFR: 2-3 DPS/healers do pretty much all the job while most of the others can barely outdps a hunter's pet.


I don't know that I see this as necessarily bad, though perhaps the cat's out of the bag already and so it can't really be avoided.

I mean, there are definitely 'skilled' (not the bads who wreck runs, not the meter toppers) players in LFR who are not heroic or even normal mode raiders (or are alts) - I know some... I am one. There are definitely people who go in expecting to be carried. Perhaps it would be possible to make folks realize they can't count on there being half a guild of normal/heroic raiders there to do the fight for them, some of the 'carry me' people would perhaps . Perhaps required ilvl adjustments and what it takes to get the ilvl would help.

Or we just let determination do the work ;)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:43 am

I still sigh when I join a raid at lei shen with 7+ stacks.

Btw, my "high skill" in the post above mostly referred to any person who has a clue of the mechanics. Which is usually less than 1/4 of the people in a LFR in any day that's not wed. How many Durumus have you done during the week, where there's more than 10 people alive at the end?

(Did I mention one time I was defined "bossy and elitist" when I said "I put a mark on me, if you got no clue of what to do follow me" ?)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:45 am

I still like the loot lockout idea the best.. you can still run LFR/Flex later in the week with friends, just no chance at loot if you've already set foot in heroic.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:49 am

Worldie wrote:The problem with your method theck, is that it would cut away "high skill" raiders from LFR. That means, LFR will not have those 2-3 key elements that carry the whole raid of bads.
You know it's always like that in LFR: 2-3 DPS/healers do pretty much all the job while most of the others can barely outdps a hunter's pet.


If we used the loot lockout approach, some will still do it for valor.

Of course, the flip side here, which will be quite amusing is, if one of these changes gets put in, there will suddenly be a huge fuss raised by the heroic raiders that were happily doing all the content tiers, and now have had those taken away from them because of the "whiners" that didn't want to be "forced" to do other content. Some heroic raiders won't be happy when their LFR is taken away..
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:50 am

well, I think it is a given that any change in WOW will generate some obscene level of rage in *someone*, so I'm not sure it's worth mentioning anymore :P
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:52 am

benebarba wrote:well, I think it is a given that any change in WOW will generate some obscene level of rage in *someone*, so I'm not sure it's worth mentioning anymore :P


True, but it will be fun to see the heroic raiders raging at each other.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:54 am

Worldie wrote:I still sigh when I join a raid at lei shen with 7+ stacks.

Btw, my "high skill" in the post above mostly referred to any person who has a clue of the mechanics. Which is usually less than 1/4 of the people in a LFR in any day that's not wed. How many Durumus have you done during the week, where there's more than 10 people alive at the end?

(Did I mention one time I was defined "bossy and elitist" when I said "I put a mark on me, if you got no clue of what to do follow me" ?)


I remember - I just wanted to be clear :D

I haven't been running LFR much now that I got my monk leveled and decently geared, but even then I was seeing (on Tues, Friday and Saturdays, mainly) groups with no more than 1 stack on a boss, and even Durumu and Lei Shen's been pretty good. This is an area I'm pretty confident saying that anecdotal data is probably not a good way to make the judgement.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Newsom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:50 am

theckhd wrote:In any event, I'm still waiting for feedback on my concept of automatically making LFR/Flex rolls on a boss in normal or heroic (or increasing bonus roll chance against that boss). It seems like that addresses the problem (Heroic raiders feel a strong incentive to re-run meaningless content and potentially cause burnout) without having any adverse effect on LFR/Flex raiders.


While this would be awesome, I don't think it will happen because of one reason: it would increase LFR queue times.

And like Worldie points out it would probably aslo increase fail rates (it doesn't hurt having overgeared heroic raiders in your LFR...)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:51 am

LFR would still be a relatively easy way to get 90 Valor even without needing loot. I know I mainly ran it for the Valor - preferred it to dailies.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Ironshield » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:48 am

Newsom wrote:
theckhd wrote:In any event, I'm still waiting for feedback on my concept of automatically making LFR/Flex rolls on a boss in normal or heroic (or increasing bonus roll chance against that boss). It seems like that addresses the problem (Heroic raiders feel a strong incentive to re-run meaningless content and potentially cause burnout) without having any adverse effect on LFR/Flex raiders.


While this would be awesome, I don't think it will happen because of one reason: it would increase LFR queue times.

And like Worldie points out it would probably aslo increase fail rates (it doesn't hurt having overgeared heroic raiders in your LFR...)

What might work is giving the Flex loot roll in Normal / Heroic as the incentive for running flex is going to be much more guild collaboration than JUST loot.

The problem with loot lockouts is that is pretty much goes against the express aim of Flex / LFR of being a fun and easy option for joining friends to raid without all the organisation. If there is a loot lockout then I either need to LFR / Flex at the beginning or end of the week or screw with the chance of joining / missing the main raid at a different time of the week. This mean I now have to PLAN per week when I do LFR / Flex if at all, rather than just joining friends on an ad hoc basis.

On a different tack, I am looking forward to Flex raids, it will be a more relaxed version of the raid, but without the faceroll neutering of mechanics that is LFR. I'm guessing the DPS checks etc... will still be quite easy but you won't just be able to ignore kicking turtles on Tortos for instance.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:56 am

Ironshield wrote:
Newsom wrote:
theckhd wrote:In any event, I'm still waiting for feedback on my concept of automatically making LFR/Flex rolls on a boss in normal or heroic (or increasing bonus roll chance against that boss). It seems like that addresses the problem (Heroic raiders feel a strong incentive to re-run meaningless content and potentially cause burnout) without having any adverse effect on LFR/Flex raiders.


While this would be awesome, I don't think it will happen because of one reason: it would increase LFR queue times.

And like Worldie points out it would probably aslo increase fail rates (it doesn't hurt having overgeared heroic raiders in your LFR...)

What might work is giving the Flex loot roll in Normal / Heroic as the incentive for running flex is going to be much more guild collaboration than JUST loot.

The problem with loot lockouts is that is pretty much goes against the express aim of Flex / LFR of being a fun and easy option for joining friends to raid without all the organisation. If there is a loot lockout then I either need to LFR / Flex at the beginning or end of the week or screw with the chance of joining / missing the main raid at a different time of the week. This mean I now have to PLAN per week when I do LFR / Flex if at all, rather than just joining friends on an ad hoc basis.

On a different tack, I am looking forward to Flex raids, it will be a more relaxed version of the raid, but without the faceroll neutering of mechanics that is LFR. I'm guessing the DPS checks etc... will still be quite easy but you won't just be able to ignore kicking turtles on Tortos for instance.


Agreed.

But there are others here that would rather nuke Flex and LFR so they aren't tempted to do it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:06 pm

Worldie wrote:The problem with your method theck, is that it would cut away "high skill" raiders from LFR. That means, LFR will not have those 2-3 key elements that carry the whole raid of bads.
You know it's always like that in LFR: 2-3 DPS/healers do pretty much all the job while most of the others can barely outdps a hunter's pet.


That would be the case with any actually working solution that would remove the incentive from normal/HC raiders to go Flex.

Though ain't that primarily a bad design, if LFR is depending on people that run normal/HC and are going LFR simply for the tier or trinket drops?

Besides, perhaps if they don't need to run LFR on their mains, they could run it on their alts instead.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Lieris » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:04 pm

I don't really understand why both LFR and Flex exist. It seems to me like Flex is LFR done right, that is a beginner's mode ideal for PUGs and alts, in which you don't need to fill a raid and don't have to worry about people leaving mid-raid. It isn't anti-social like LFR as you need to make the group yourselves and you need to travel to the instances.

I may have got the wrong end of the stick though because I don't follow the game closely anymore (I just found out about Flex today) but it seems to me that they can safely remove LFR from the game if Flex proves to be a success.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:53 pm

They all have different audiences. Flex still requires you to find a group of 9+ other people to do content. LFR is log in, queue, run instance, log out. It works well for people who haven't the time or inclination to join a larger guild, or trawl trade chat to find a group.

If the devs had their druthers I suspect they would rather have Flex than LFR, but that barn done burnt down.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Newsom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:07 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:LFR would still be a relatively easy way to get 90 Valor even without needing loot. I know I mainly ran it for the Valor - preferred it to dailies.


Someone hasn't discovered heroic scenarios. :P
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Xfighter » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:24 pm

In regards to LFR; I haven't felt forced to run it for main spec as a heroic raider since 5.0 or so. I think I ran each wing of ToT LFR once when they opened up, and then didn't bother for 2+ months afterwards. Then again, the tier bonuses this tier weren't very appealing anyways, and the trinkets worthwhile have the proc rates already quite low for prot, so that wasn't a factor. I can see why it is one for other specs though, as some of the bonuses/procs are pretty amazing regardless of the actual proc rate of it.


I'd honestly hate having the shared loot lockout, as it does make gearing for off-specs quite a bit harder, especially as a person doing heroic 10-man, where drops that are useful are rather rare. I haven't used LFR to gear my main-offspec much, seeing as most prot gear can beat out LFR-level "ret" gear/overlaps it anyways.

Lately I've just been doing LFRs on my main because it's a nice change of pace, I can log them and make myself look good /flex, and its a way to gear my holy set with some friends, while tanking, and without waiting weeks for every caster/healer who share common items rings/necks/trinkets/shields/weapons/etc with it.




I could agree with some form of lockout right at the release of a tier (5.0, 5.2, etc) so that if you touch heroic, you get locked out from running the LFRs, or something similar.

Hell another solution could be if you kill a boss on LFR, you're not able to use a bonus roll on that boss in heroic mode, although it's a bit of an unintuitive solution to a problem that only exists for most "hardcore" for a few weeks or so (usually).
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:17 am

I think there are a lot of points on both sides being ignored by each of you.

One point that I think is quite significant, Darielle, and that you are either ignoring, or have forgotten, is that LFR is now the intended catchup mechanism. A lot of the suggestions you are highlighting would mean a need for another catchup mechanism.


I don't see how that's being ignored, since independence would allow for LFR to have better gear, allow for it to be available sooner, etc.
If you mean being able to double up runs as a catchup mechanism, a lot of that is a result of the fact that LFR is the only good catchup mechanism, and the others aren't as effective. You can't use Valor stuff without already running LFR, and Heroic Scenarios are not very good as a catchup mechanism.

They've funneled themselves into too much through LFR, they need other effective catchup mechanisms anyway, if only to give people who don't liek raiding something to do.

But understand that you're asking Blizz to fundamentally change LFR over something relatively small, at least in the big scheme of things, because you don't want to be "incentivized" to do it without willing to admit that in doing so, you're also changing the value of lfr rewards for everyone else as well -- when in reality LFR is not really designed with heroic raiders in mind.

Now, that trinket is a end of expac thing -- and such brokenness is unlikely to be repeated for the next several tiers come the next expac, but you want to change it anyways.


This is a big reason why it's important to understand that any change is still taking character progression for its intended audience in mind. Having a 20k dps upgrade trinket instead of a 50k dps doesn't remove character progression in any way. Especially if they're likely to be still using 463's or 483's etc.

And no, trinkets are not an end of expansion thing. Throne has proven that very much. Even ToC and Ulduar had amazing trinkets - Death's Verdict being a great example.

Remember, this game is for everyone -- in the current setup, heroic raiders are the ones "affected" by LFR having desirable enough loot, I believe Ion does realize its a problem, but doesn't sees it as a big enough problem to be addressed (oh my! 3 chances a loot, how horrible!)


This is one of the contradictions I mentioned. We had 10-mans and 25-mans being separate once, and that was considered too much. We've had many other activities that were streamlined or changed to prevent them being too much on top of raiding. When there ARE solutions that would preserve the mode for its intended audience, and those solutions were much more invasive for people unaffected by the changes, what's special about this?

Another solution could be to have Blizz neuter the trinket so it becomes meh, that way you won't be interested in the LFR version of it. How's that?

Remember, your solutions tend to be pretty heavy handed in that it ultimately changes LFR for the people it's really intended just for because some people will really value a specific trinket regardless of its source (LFR/Flex/Normal/Heroic).


I believe that was along the lines of what I suggested as a possiblity. Where UVLS becomes a "proc X crit rating more frequently" or Rune becomes "proc X, higher of your Haste, Mastery, Crit", etc.

So, if you want blizz to listen to you, then you need to come up with a solution that doesnt affect LFR/Flex for the people it mainly intended for, otherwise they will go with the lesser of evils and go with what they currently have, much to your chagrin.


I still haven't seen ANY kind of explanation for why you think anything suggested would make LFR/Flex something no one would run.

Right, but that information is part of your character's stored data, not part of the instance tech. Hence why you can know that information outside of the instance (i.e. at the LFR queue interface), but LFR/Flex can't share lockouts with normal/heroic. It's a technical limitation.


Yes, but your Lockout on individual bosses is also stored character data. If I can see that I have up to Primordius down on Heroic this week, the game can certainly use that to prevent the individual roll coming up or prevent the eligibility flag on whether I can roll or have the loot Master Looted to me etc.
I wouldn't see it as a technical hurdle so much as a fundamental "Not something they want to do atm".

The problem with your method theck, is that it would cut away "high skill" raiders from LFR. That means, LFR will not have those 2-3 key elements that carry the whole raid of bads.
You know it's always like that in LFR: 2-3 DPS/healers do pretty much all the job while most of the others can barely outdps a hunter's pet.


This is the reason they nerf LFR though in the cases of stuff like Garalon etc., and they put in Determination. They might have to make LFR even easier baseline, but that's not really a problem on their end.

LFR's meant to be run by its intended audience. It's going to remain easy to do for its intended audience, and it certainly doesn't need other people in there carrying them. And it's a little bit silly to expect those people to, anyway.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:19 am

Darielle, many loot changes you lists would simply transfer from:"OMG, Blizz! I need to run Flex&LFR to get X! Unfun!" to "OMG, Blizz! I need to run previous tier HC again for X! Unfun!".
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Worldie » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:50 am

Darielle wrote:
This is the reason they nerf LFR though in the cases of stuff like Garalon etc., and they put in Determination. They might have to make LFR even easier baseline, but that's not really a problem on their end.

LFR's meant to be run by its intended audience. It's going to remain easy to do for its intended audience, and it certainly doesn't need other people in there carrying them. And it's a little bit silly to expect those people to, anyway.

Yet it's how it works.

Have you ever tried doing LFR in the last part of the reset, when all proper raiders have already done it? I've seen groups getting several stacks of determination even on stuff like horridon or tortos.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:09 am

Darielle wrote:
I think there are a lot of points on both sides being ignored by each of you.

One point that I think is quite significant, Darielle, and that you are either ignoring, or have forgotten, is that LFR is now the intended catchup mechanism. A lot of the suggestions you are highlighting would mean a need for another catchup mechanism.


I don't see how that's being ignored, since independence would allow for LFR to have better gear, allow for it to be available sooner, etc.
If you mean being able to double up runs as a catchup mechanism, a lot of that is a result of the fact that LFR is the only good catchup mechanism, and the others aren't as effective. You can't use Valor stuff without already running LFR, and Heroic Scenarios are not very good as a catchup mechanism.

They've funneled themselves into too much through LFR, they need other effective catchup mechanisms anyway, if only to give people who don't liek raiding something to do.


I'll definately agree on the last part, my point was merely, that while this not being teh case would be better, it is the case, and not just by default, by intended design.

(Also, I have to admit, I've never been a great fan of LFR - I'm actually scared to go into LFR due to the high failure rates I've been hearing about, and the fact that I'm an "undergeared noob" (or so I would look), since I never completed T14, and have only just gotten the 502 boots.. 2 days? ago. Also, even when I was tanking heroic DS, I did not want to tank LFR DS - I dislike the social conventions (or rather the lack of) in LFR, so no way I would be tanking. Healing, sure, possibly, but really, dps'ing is the 'safest' when you know what to do with your class, because it will show on the meters.)
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Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
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Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
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Nooska
 
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Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

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