LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby theckhd » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:47 am

Darielle wrote:
Regarding sharing lockouts: I wouldn't expect it. LFR is a different set of instance tech than normal/heroic, which is why they don't share lockouts. Since Flex uses the same individual roll setup as LFR, it's a good bet that it's on the same tech tree as LFR, which means it can't share a lockout with normal/heroic. It could probably share a lockout with LFR, but that would defeat the purpose.


They ARE able to detect that you've killed a boss on any mode however - that's what applied to Legendary quest items. Hypothetical tech required would simply have to use that detection to enable whether your individual Loot Roll comes up the same way it does for having already killed the boss in LFR.


Right, but that information is part of your character's stored data, not part of the instance tech. Hence why you can know that information outside of the instance (i.e. at the LFR queue interface), but LFR/Flex can't share lockouts with normal/heroic. It's a technical limitation.

In any event, I'm still waiting for feedback on my concept of automatically making LFR/Flex rolls on a boss in normal or heroic (or increasing bonus roll chance against that boss). It seems like that addresses the problem (Heroic raiders feel a strong incentive to re-run meaningless content and potentially cause burnout) without having any adverse effect on LFR/Flex raiders.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:49 am

See? I like Theck's solution better! =D
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:13 am

Theck is stealing my idea now. :P

Though my suggestion was for Normal/HC to give the LFR drops as free extra (assuming LFR is available for that boss, and you haven't killed the boss yet on LFR). You basically get your LFR loot while doing Normal/HC. This way, you only have to farm 1 step lower than current content, just like it is now. You'd farm Flex next to Normal/HC instead of LFR. People that focus on Flex might farm LFR next to Flex.

I think giving Flex loot for free in Normal/HC is a bit overkill. Sure, it would remove all incentive to ever run Flex and LFR, save for helping out friends, but it's a little too much extra free loot...

The bonus on the charm rolls... That would feel odd to me. It would penalize me for running LFR/Flex with some friends before the raid night. And what about the bosses I'm not coining for? Can I still run those on LFR? (Though admittedly, I shouldn't be needing gear from more than 3 different bosses in LFR if I run Normal/HC.)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:27 am

theckhd wrote:In any event, I'm still waiting for feedback on my concept of automatically making LFR/Flex rolls on a boss in normal or heroic (or increasing bonus roll chance against that boss). It seems like that addresses the problem (Heroic raiders feel a strong incentive to re-run meaningless content and potentially cause burnout) without having any adverse effect on LFR/Flex raiders.


I'm not sure I like the idea of getting a 'free' LFR/Flex roll just for downing the normal/heroic boss. The reason is because while it would definitely help make the normal/heroic raiders who don't want to run LFR/Flex not do thost things for the loot (and possibly make those on the edge swing out of it), it would literally be giving something to them for free: namely a chance at the 'lesser' reward from a boss you didn't kill (though in all likelyhood could quite easily), on top of the 'standard' reward chance simply because they are doing it on a higher difficulty. In other words, you'd be getting a cumulative reward - which seems kind of odd to me.

I think I'd rather see a chance on your bonus rolls (which would still require effort outside the raid instance in order to get coins, and be on an individual basis) to get the LFR/Flex loot *or* normal/heroic items (they'd have to have different chances, of course). That way you'd still have to do *something* outside of walking into your raid to see some increased chance at useful loot, but you'd not have to do LFR/Flex to get it. Heck, maybe even extend that down to Flex, letting it have a chance of LFR loot (if different ilvls).
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:30 am

The problem with your method theck, is that it would cut away "high skill" raiders from LFR. That means, LFR will not have those 2-3 key elements that carry the whole raid of bads.
You know it's always like that in LFR: 2-3 DPS/healers do pretty much all the job while most of the others can barely outdps a hunter's pet.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:38 am

Worldie wrote:The problem with your method theck, is that it would cut away "high skill" raiders from LFR. That means, LFR will not have those 2-3 key elements that carry the whole raid of bads.
You know it's always like that in LFR: 2-3 DPS/healers do pretty much all the job while most of the others can barely outdps a hunter's pet.


I don't know that I see this as necessarily bad, though perhaps the cat's out of the bag already and so it can't really be avoided.

I mean, there are definitely 'skilled' (not the bads who wreck runs, not the meter toppers) players in LFR who are not heroic or even normal mode raiders (or are alts) - I know some... I am one. There are definitely people who go in expecting to be carried. Perhaps it would be possible to make folks realize they can't count on there being half a guild of normal/heroic raiders there to do the fight for them, some of the 'carry me' people would perhaps . Perhaps required ilvl adjustments and what it takes to get the ilvl would help.

Or we just let determination do the work ;)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:43 am

I still sigh when I join a raid at lei shen with 7+ stacks.

Btw, my "high skill" in the post above mostly referred to any person who has a clue of the mechanics. Which is usually less than 1/4 of the people in a LFR in any day that's not wed. How many Durumus have you done during the week, where there's more than 10 people alive at the end?

(Did I mention one time I was defined "bossy and elitist" when I said "I put a mark on me, if you got no clue of what to do follow me" ?)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:45 am

I still like the loot lockout idea the best.. you can still run LFR/Flex later in the week with friends, just no chance at loot if you've already set foot in heroic.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:49 am

Worldie wrote:The problem with your method theck, is that it would cut away "high skill" raiders from LFR. That means, LFR will not have those 2-3 key elements that carry the whole raid of bads.
You know it's always like that in LFR: 2-3 DPS/healers do pretty much all the job while most of the others can barely outdps a hunter's pet.


If we used the loot lockout approach, some will still do it for valor.

Of course, the flip side here, which will be quite amusing is, if one of these changes gets put in, there will suddenly be a huge fuss raised by the heroic raiders that were happily doing all the content tiers, and now have had those taken away from them because of the "whiners" that didn't want to be "forced" to do other content. Some heroic raiders won't be happy when their LFR is taken away..
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:50 am

well, I think it is a given that any change in WOW will generate some obscene level of rage in *someone*, so I'm not sure it's worth mentioning anymore :P
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:52 am

benebarba wrote:well, I think it is a given that any change in WOW will generate some obscene level of rage in *someone*, so I'm not sure it's worth mentioning anymore :P


True, but it will be fun to see the heroic raiders raging at each other.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby benebarba » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:54 am

Worldie wrote:I still sigh when I join a raid at lei shen with 7+ stacks.

Btw, my "high skill" in the post above mostly referred to any person who has a clue of the mechanics. Which is usually less than 1/4 of the people in a LFR in any day that's not wed. How many Durumus have you done during the week, where there's more than 10 people alive at the end?

(Did I mention one time I was defined "bossy and elitist" when I said "I put a mark on me, if you got no clue of what to do follow me" ?)


I remember - I just wanted to be clear :D

I haven't been running LFR much now that I got my monk leveled and decently geared, but even then I was seeing (on Tues, Friday and Saturdays, mainly) groups with no more than 1 stack on a boss, and even Durumu and Lei Shen's been pretty good. This is an area I'm pretty confident saying that anecdotal data is probably not a good way to make the judgement.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Newsom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:50 am

theckhd wrote:In any event, I'm still waiting for feedback on my concept of automatically making LFR/Flex rolls on a boss in normal or heroic (or increasing bonus roll chance against that boss). It seems like that addresses the problem (Heroic raiders feel a strong incentive to re-run meaningless content and potentially cause burnout) without having any adverse effect on LFR/Flex raiders.


While this would be awesome, I don't think it will happen because of one reason: it would increase LFR queue times.

And like Worldie points out it would probably aslo increase fail rates (it doesn't hurt having overgeared heroic raiders in your LFR...)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:51 am

LFR would still be a relatively easy way to get 90 Valor even without needing loot. I know I mainly ran it for the Valor - preferred it to dailies.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Ironshield » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:48 am

Newsom wrote:
theckhd wrote:In any event, I'm still waiting for feedback on my concept of automatically making LFR/Flex rolls on a boss in normal or heroic (or increasing bonus roll chance against that boss). It seems like that addresses the problem (Heroic raiders feel a strong incentive to re-run meaningless content and potentially cause burnout) without having any adverse effect on LFR/Flex raiders.


While this would be awesome, I don't think it will happen because of one reason: it would increase LFR queue times.

And like Worldie points out it would probably aslo increase fail rates (it doesn't hurt having overgeared heroic raiders in your LFR...)

What might work is giving the Flex loot roll in Normal / Heroic as the incentive for running flex is going to be much more guild collaboration than JUST loot.

The problem with loot lockouts is that is pretty much goes against the express aim of Flex / LFR of being a fun and easy option for joining friends to raid without all the organisation. If there is a loot lockout then I either need to LFR / Flex at the beginning or end of the week or screw with the chance of joining / missing the main raid at a different time of the week. This mean I now have to PLAN per week when I do LFR / Flex if at all, rather than just joining friends on an ad hoc basis.

On a different tack, I am looking forward to Flex raids, it will be a more relaxed version of the raid, but without the faceroll neutering of mechanics that is LFR. I'm guessing the DPS checks etc... will still be quite easy but you won't just be able to ignore kicking turtles on Tortos for instance.
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