Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:57 pm

Wow, I get busy for a day and miss 5 or 6 pages.

In any event, I don't think there's much cause for alarm. BH was overpowered, it was only a matter of time before it got nerfed.

I'm 100% sure that Blizzard will not leave us in a state where we don't have the mana to function. My rough calculations suggest we need Guarded by the Light buffed to ~13.5% to maintain the rotation at high haste in the absence of SoI, so 10% won't quite cut it. That will be easy to demonstrate with testing and logs though, so it's a fair bet that it'll end up at 14% or higher if they do implement it at 10%.

The Grand Crusader change... is very meh. If you think that going from 12%-0% on CS/HotR and 12%->30% on avoidance is going to kill haste, you fundamentally misunderstand how our class operates. It's a slight nerf to haste's survivability value, a slightly more noticeable buff to dodge/parry, but it's not going to change our gearing paradigm at all.

Saying this is the "wrong directon to take us" is also missing the point. This is clearly not a long-term fix. Eliminating avoidance plate and re-designing Warriors and DKs to match our love for DPS stats isn't a patch-level change, that's an expansion-level overhaul. This is just a stopgap to try and tide us over to whatever overhaul they have in store for 6.0.

In other words, this is the end-of-expansion equivalent of them saying "Yeah, we know you like haste, but for this expansion we're stuck with you sharing avoidance gear with Warriors and DKs, so you're stuck with having some avoidance. Here's a small buff to avoidance so that itemization feels less like it's wasted when you are stuck using it."
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:14 pm

someone was saying haste being devalued by about 6.5%

now... the thing is... what if they dont want to buff GbtL mana regen that high to make high haste builds unviable?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:03 pm

what if they dont want to buff GbtL mana regen that high to make high haste builds unviable?


But they've been pretty damn adamant that Haste is something they intend to remain viable, and they're buffing GbtL specifically instead of sitting and going "haha", so why would the evil overlord scenario come into play?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:05 am

Klaudandus wrote:someone was saying haste being devalued by about 6.5%


Really now? You will gain 1 less SotR/4 minutes from 50% Haste in 5.4, than you will in 5.3. Over the course of 4 minutes, 50% haste will now net us 15 extra SotRs (over 0% haste), rather than 16. Napkin math brings it to 6.32%. However, we still get the additional SoI procs, the additional SS refreshes, and the truckload of additional DPS...

And that's assuming that the 50% Haste doesn't reduce the number of GC procs we'll waste, which is very unlikely, if you ask me.

And even if Haste is being devalued, so what? It's not being nerfed to the ground. It's still your best secondary stat (after capping Hit/Exp), and overall, your survivability might go up, even if you're decked out in almost full haste gear...

Klaudandus wrote:now... the thing is... what if they dont want to buff GbtL mana regen that high to make high haste builds unviable?


But they WANT Haste to be viable. If they wouldn't, then why would they have Haste affect SotR midway the expansion, rather than just take Sanctity of Battle away from us?

They also cleared stated they do not want us to go OOM. They can't just bump GbtL to 50%, because they don't want us to spam FoL until the end of days, so they just need a bit of time to pinpoint it so that we don't have mana issues, as long as we don't resort to spells like FoL.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:39 am

I can see how my post can be misconstrued.

All I said that some people doing napkin math were saying that haste was gonna be devalued by 6.5% from its current form with the changes. I never said it was bad -- granted, I never said it was not the earth shattering event everyone else is saying it would be, and it's not. In that same post with the napkin math, they also said it would not change our gearing strategy - if and only if - our mana regen is better than our mana expenditure thru the length of any given fight.

Hence my 2nd part of the post. Blizz can say, we want you guys to have haste, but only so much, otherwise you will run out mana. Haste is really good in part because we don't have a cap for it.

I guess I've always learned to expect the worst, hence why I think it's not implausible of Blizz to put a soft-cap of sorts to our haste by limiting the mana regen of GbtL.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby daishan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:48 am

Well we do have a soft cap for haste at 50% :D

I can understand how people might of worried about blizz using mana to artificially cap haste but there's too many variables for it to be an effective cap.
You could get away with much higher haste on a single tank slow hitting boss that doesn't need any of our utility spells, than you could on an add fight that requires our interrupt on cd ect.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby boneyjellyfish » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:53 am

Sagara wrote:
Treck wrote:I agree.
People just go crazy for the slightest change, without knowing if its a buff or not to them.
Everyone wants to be overpowered, isnt that right? I mean thats fun right? Problem is every class cant be overpowered, and try playing a druid/DK if you are complaining Pallys will be shit in 5.4

That said, I think this is the wrong way to go about making avoidance stats more "nice" to have on gear, compared to now where its considered "useless"
Warriors are getting Riposte, make 50% of their avoidance ratings to give critt rating AS WELL as the avoidance.
Something along those lines for pallys as well would be what Id try to do, right now its still random and people wont go for it cause they dont feel it does much to them and its likely they would have dodged/parried there anyway without that much avoidance on your gear.


Well, I like the concept of GC being tied to our avoidance, which *is* very similar to riposte. In fact, I'd say it's stronger since it gives us AM resources (then again, I'm crap at Prot Warriors, so maybe it DOES help their AM). Our only downside is that we're working on a double RNG, which, as any Fire Mage can attest, is annoying as hell.

Throwing it out off the top of my head:

a)Grand Crusader - When the Paladin dodges or parries any attack, they gain 1 charge of Grand Crusader. When 4 charges are accumulated, the next Avenger's Shield does not incur a cooldown, and grants the Paladin 1 Holy Power.

b)Grand Crusader - When the Paladin dodges or parries any attack, they gain 50% of their Parry and Dodge as a bonus to their haste for 20 seconds. (Don't like this one quite as much, due to haste-capping, but it's an idea.)


lol... vindication at last!
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33247&p=755908#p755908
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:02 am

Ah that? It's going to sound silly, but this is exactly what I meant back then: take something that *exists* and iterate on it.
Back then, we would have ended up with two procs where (re-read the freaking thing) dodge is used to provoke a haste bonus, THEN that haste bonus is used to up parry, WHILE haste is turned is something completely different?
Also, do note that I did little more than turn GC into some kind of Riposte, AND mentionned it was my least favorite option.

That suggestion was trailblaizing in the savannah, hoping you'd have a good road, ignoring the old path that existed.
What we have is the re-treading of old path, adding nuts and bolts to it until it forms a proper road.

Remember, it's not because you randomly ended up in the same place the guy with the GPS went, doesn't mean GPS'es are crap.

EDIT: WAIT - did you lie in wait for FIVE MONTHS for trying that kind of comeback? o_O Well, you're dedicated, at least.
Last edited by Sagara on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:06 am

daishan wrote:Well we do have a soft cap for haste at 50% :D

I can understand how people might of worried about blizz using mana to artificially cap haste but there's too many variables for it to be an effective cap.
You could get away with much higher haste on a single tank slow hitting boss that doesn't need any of our utility spells, than you could on an add fight that requires our interrupt on cd ect.


Perhaps, but I'm pretty sure they can run a sim where it does the rotation perfectly, throw in some extra stuff like rebuke and other things you'd normally use in a fight and determine a sweet spot where they're happy with the amount of haste we're supposed to have and the mana regen needed for us to sustain it.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:33 am

*insert a pic here*

Let's consider the following situation:

*Meanwhile, at Blizzard HQ*

GC: TOADIE! How are we faring with the destruction of the paladin class?
Toad: According to schedule sir! We've thrown them a wave of meaningless changes that will have them tearing each other apart trying to figure out our plan.
GC: Good, good... WHile they're distracted, we can proceed with the Doomsday Calculator's work. Soon, we will know EXACTLY how far we shall nerf them.
Toad (eyes shifting): Mmh...
GC: And then, when the patch will hit, their waves of QQ will flood the forums, and whom shall they cry for? ME.
Toad (slightly nervous, taking a step back): Okay...
GC: AND THEN! WHom shall they see, GLEEFULLY RIDING on their sea of torment on his crimson Dreadsteed? (voice rising, arms close to the chest) It. Shall. Be. (arms spreading, barely a whisper) me.
Toad: Hmm, boss?
GC: WHAT? I thought you were gone to the Doomsday Calculator.
Toad: Well, about that... (shrinks) Remember that squirrel we used when we tested Pet Battles?
GC (eyes closing): I'm not going to like this, am I?
Toad (gulping): I took the last one I could find. And... I think... Maybe (high-pitched voice) it powered the Doomsday Calculator?
*panning shot of Blizzard HQ* -beat-
*same shot, fire streaming out of every entrance and window*

No seriously. They'd have to be that level of dumb to try and throttle haste gearing by any significant margin.
a) We simply can't reach 100% ShotR coverage.
b) That'd be a stupid amount of work to make the game less fun, and not an iota more balanced in the process.

that'd be the archetypal lose-lose scenario, and no matter how much we like to bash Blizz, the only reason they'd nerf fun, is for balance's sake.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:49 am

No seriously. They'd have to be that level of dumb to try and throttle haste gearing by any significant margin.
a) We simply can't reach 100% ShotR coverage.
b) That'd be a stupid amount of work to make the game less fun, and not an iota more balanced in the process.


Technically, it just takes a bit of playing to get very close to 100% coverage using things like HA's extension.

One thing I was expecting to see in something like 5.2 was for them to try and gut coming close to 100% ShoR coverage by putting charges on it. They tried specificaly to make sure that Shield Block or Savage Defense uptime could never get too high, but they seem to have neglected ShoR for idkwhy.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:57 am

Wasn't that dependent on the T16-4pc old "banking" bonus?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby boneyjellyfish » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:43 pm

Sagara wrote:EDIT: WAIT - did you lie in wait for FIVE MONTHS for trying that kind of comeback? o_O Well, you're dedicated, at least.


Hahaha I when I saw your suggestion I had no idea that you had originally rebutted mine. I remembered making that post and practically peed myself when I looked it up and saw you were part of the discussion. Haven't posted in five months because I quit just after 5.1 came out.

Anyway, main point of my original post was that I wanted Dodge or Parries to be converted to Haste. I agree that the Parry to Haste dynamic was a little silly.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:57 pm

Clearly it's time to bring back Defense on gear.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenris » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:36 pm

Twittercrab

For Prot, we buffed Guarded by the Light to 15% mana return to compensate for SoI.

Lots of changes for holy too but it's almost 3 AM and i don't feel like copy/pasting them too :D
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