Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:07 am

Not saying the contrary, just stating that it's basically dumb, and we shouldn't actually be surprised, in an x-pack that tries to shuffle things up for Legendaries to actually... wait for it... THINK about what to do about legendaries.

I know, it's crazy in our doom and gloom wow commmunity to think that maybe, just maybe, a couple brain cells at Blizz HQ could collide and spark ideas. But maybe they are, I don't know, a successful gaming company?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby benebarba » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:54 am

Sagara wrote:Not saying the contrary, just stating that it's basically dumb, and we shouldn't actually be surprised, in an x-pack that tries to shuffle things up for Legendaries to actually... wait for it... THINK about what to do about legendaries.

I know, it's crazy in our doom and gloom wow commmunity to think that maybe, just maybe, a couple brain cells at Blizz HQ could collide and spark ideas. But maybe they are, I don't know, a successful gaming company?


From a design stand-point, there seem to be *a lot* of things in Mists that appear to be throwing 'convention', seemingly to test the idea of changing/reverting paradigms (or at least the philosophy behind) for certain things in the game.

VP aquisition and requirements for spending are another example, The role of 5-mans and LFR in progression, etc. So no, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they changed how they view legendaries. I seem to recall either a blog post or a watercooler-like thing about the trouble with the design of legendary items (and their acquisition) in general.

though I did find this gem by GC from a cataclysm post mortem:
Speaking of raids, we also weren’t particularly happy with how accessible legendary items became in Cataclysm. Multiple characters in a single raiding guild were getting, and worse, expecting a legendary weapon. Legendaries are supposed to be rare and exciting, not a bar you fill up like some reputation grind, and certainly not something you feel entitled to get because it’s “your turn.”



Somehow I feel like that last bit got tossed out pretty early in the design of MOP, since that pretty much describes what legendary acquisition has become.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:19 am

In terms of the legendary acquistion, it's just the nature of the game now tbh. The ones you could get in Vanilla / TBC were like "oh shit...a legendary, not needed, but thanks." Then in TBC with Shadowmourne, it started to change with 'amgod, need noa'.

I just feel like the casual player base has really affected how legendaries are acquire more so than people realize.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fetzie » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:34 am

If they hadn't moved to this idea of expansion-spanning progression for everybody, I'd have much rather they scrap legendaries altogether. They were nothing but a source of major headaches for everybody, but especially those who had to make the decision as to who got one and who did not.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:43 am

The real good thing was to switch the onus of the legendary story to the player instead of the guild.
Although, in all honestly, I'd have held that to Normals and Heroics (and now to Flex as well).
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:12 am

Have to say, it's still refreshing to not have guild drama over legendary item progression, people jumping guilds to have a better chance, and no more "LFM Ulduar Shards are reserved".

I wouldn't mind going back to a legendary drop, but the days of guilds boosting 1 player for months to get a legendary just for that player to unsub at the end can DIAF.

And really, the current model, even though it is "Legendaries for almost everyone", still gets far more players involved in the questline, gets them more engaged than they might otherwise be, and also provides some challenging solo content. Why is that so bad?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:15 am

5.4 should remove the VP step or drop it to 1K VP. It will be a non-needed gate at that point, especially with the reputation requirements for The Black Prince still in there.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby benebarba » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:18 am

Fetzie wrote:If they hadn't moved to this idea of expansion-spanning progression for everybody, I'd have much rather they scrap legendaries altogether. They were nothing but a source of major headaches for everybody, but especially those who had to make the decision as to who got one and who did not.


I think I'd rather seem them scrapped or relabeled, since this seems to be working it's way into the troubles that they realized with the Path of the Titans. Frankly, the current model just doesn't seem very sustainable (from a player perspective), since it seems like it would only exaggerate gear inflation. From Blizzard's perspective, I guess it does give players one more thing to do (and possibly stay subscribed for).

I think I prefer the idea that Legendaries are this really meaningful thing (group of things, really) out there that was closely tied into the story/lore of the game (not necessarily the current expansion, and perhaps not even always attainable after being introduced)... but I think it was a mistake to make them more than a largely cosmetic item with maybe some fun on-use or procs that didn't make them combat items.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:19 am

benebarba wrote:though I did find this gem by GC from a cataclysm post mortem:
Speaking of raids, we also weren’t particularly happy with how accessible legendary items became in Cataclysm. Multiple characters in a single raiding guild were getting, and worse, expecting a legendary weapon. Legendaries are supposed to be rare and exciting, not a bar you fill up like some reputation grind, and certainly not something you feel entitled to get because it’s “your turn.”



Somehow I feel like that last bit got tossed out pretty early in the design of MOP, since that pretty much describes what legendary acquisition has become.


I'm not sure that's entirely fair to say. The old system was problematic for all of the reasons they gave. But they didn't go with a weapon this time for exactly that reason. I think they're testing out the "everyone gets a Legendary, but it will take a long time and lots of effort over the entire expansion with smaller rewards along the way" idea. Choosing a cloak makes sense in that context, because having everyone running around with a legendary weapon would be silly.

It sort of tosses out the "rare and exciting" part, but I think that's intentional. Anything rare gets abused the same way Dragonwrath did, unless you somehow tie it to guild. And that has its own problems (is it fair to void items when the guild disbands and reforms under new leadership? What if the GM says "peace" and gkicks everyone? etc.).
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:29 am

benebarba wrote:I think I'd rather seem them scrapped or relabeled, since this seems to be working it's way into the troubles that they realized with the Path of the Titans. Frankly, the current model just doesn't seem very sustainable (from a player perspective), since it seems like it would only exaggerate gear inflation. From Blizzard's perspective, I guess it does give players one more thing to do (and possibly stay subscribed for).


The current system is my favorite of the tried methods. Miles better than the "Farm molten Core for 4 years and never get a binding" or "oh you killed a boss so here's a sword!" or "okay, this week it is Mage X's turn and next week we start n Warlock Y." It also addresses a complaint people had in that it offers an expansion long chain.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby benebarba » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:39 am

theckhd wrote:I'm not sure that's entirely fair to say. The old system was problematic for all of the reasons they gave. But they didn't go with a weapon this time for exactly that reason. I think they're testing out the "everyone gets a Legendary, but it will take a long time and lots of effort over the entire expansion with smaller rewards along the way" idea. Choosing a cloak makes sense in that context, because having everyone running around with a legendary weapon would be silly.

It sort of tosses out the "rare and exciting" part, but I think that's intentional. Anything rare gets abused the same way Dragonwrath did, unless you somehow tie it to guild. And that has its own problems (is it fair to void items when the guild disbands and reforms under new leadership? What if the GM says "peace" and gkicks everyone? etc.).


While I can't disagree with your point, and the entitlement does seem to have been diminished because they are an individual reward ('you want one? work for it') though I'm not sure it's gone... but it pretty much *is* a rep to be ground, and a bar(s) to be filled. That was more my point, not so much the rarity or excitement.

Granted, the grind is interspersed with some solo content that is quite a nice, if frustrating at times, addition (and hopefully will improve the use of solo scenario-like-things in the future). In some ways, this seems to have temporarily filled the niche of high-level class quests, and I think that's a good thing in general.

In the end, I'm just not convinced that legendaries are a thing that we need every expansion... though I guess they are expected now.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:43 am

Flex wrote:
benebarba wrote:I think I'd rather seem them scrapped or relabeled, since this seems to be working it's way into the troubles that they realized with the Path of the Titans. Frankly, the current model just doesn't seem very sustainable (from a player perspective), since it seems like it would only exaggerate gear inflation. From Blizzard's perspective, I guess it does give players one more thing to do (and possibly stay subscribed for).


The current system is my favorite of the tried methods. Miles better than the "Farm molten Core for 4 years and never get a binding" or "oh you killed a boss so here's a sword!" or "okay, this week it is Mage X's turn and next week we start n Warlock Y." It also addresses a complaint people had in that it offers an expansion long chain.


Yep. The only quibbles with the current system should be the speed of the "catch up" and what the appropriate ilvl should be. Regarding the catch up, you do want the mechanism there, but you also don't want to diminish the work during the xpac too much for those that already did the work.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:10 am

Flex wrote:
benebarba wrote:I think I'd rather seem them scrapped or relabeled, since this seems to be working it's way into the troubles that they realized with the Path of the Titans. Frankly, the current model just doesn't seem very sustainable (from a player perspective), since it seems like it would only exaggerate gear inflation. From Blizzard's perspective, I guess it does give players one more thing to do (and possibly stay subscribed for).


The current system is my favorite of the tried methods. Miles better than the "Farm molten Core for 4 years and never get a binding" or "oh you killed a boss so here's a sword!" or "okay, this week it is Mage X's turn and next week we start n Warlock Y." It also addresses a complaint people had in that it offers an expansion long chain.


Agreed. Watching our raid give every Thunderfury and Sulfuras to every Warrior because it was optimal for raid progression was extremely annoying. Glad we're done with that.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:32 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Flex wrote:
benebarba wrote:I think I'd rather seem them scrapped or relabeled, since this seems to be working it's way into the troubles that they realized with the Path of the Titans. Frankly, the current model just doesn't seem very sustainable (from a player perspective), since it seems like it would only exaggerate gear inflation. From Blizzard's perspective, I guess it does give players one more thing to do (and possibly stay subscribed for).


The current system is my favorite of the tried methods. Miles better than the "Farm molten Core for 4 years and never get a binding" or "oh you killed a boss so here's a sword!" or "okay, this week it is Mage X's turn and next week we start n Warlock Y." It also addresses a complaint people had in that it offers an expansion long chain.


Agreed. Watching our raid give every Thunderfury and Sulfuras to every Warrior because it was optimal for raid progression was extremely annoying. Glad we're done with that.


That, along with watching my friend the rogue unsub a week after getting the daggers, or the mage that got the staff switch mains the next tier.

The only thing really wrong with the new method is Alliance and Silvershard Mines... >.>
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:44 am

Honestly speaking I found the fact that you were forced to do PvP for a PvE legendary quite stupid
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