Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:58 pm

Darielle wrote:^ Not only that, but why is there going to be a need on their end to actively push tanks away from the dps cloak?


Because DPS stats are not in their design function for tanks?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fetzie » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:01 pm

Darielle wrote:^ Not only that, but why is there going to be a need on their end to actively push tanks away from the dps cloak?


They could always add in a "this will deal overkill damage no matter how much health you have" ability once every .... 60 seconds? :D
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:11 pm

Fetzie wrote:
Darielle wrote:^ Not only that, but why is there going to be a need on their end to actively push tanks away from the dps cloak?


They could always add in a "this will deal overkill damage no matter how much health you have" ability once every .... 60 seconds? :D


'cept that none of the raids are supposed to be balanced around having legendaries.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:06 pm

Because DPS stats are not in their design function for tanks?


Hardly - in fact, for Agi users, the DPS cloak would be the perfect stats while the Dodge cloak is the one with the really weird and terrible stat, AND the stats are pretty irrelevant to the procs anyway, since having some Avoidance is not exactly a bad tradeoff for hilarious procs.

And if er went by that logic, Capacitance would have gotten trucked hard. And the Sha-Touched gem for Strength-tanks wouldn't have been ..... Strength.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:33 pm

I should have probably said, 'dps stats are not their design function for plate tanks".

Yes...they like seeing tanks do DPS, but not to the point of where paladin tanks have taken haste stacking. The Strength gem probably did not see the dps gains that you may imagine. And we sort of do gain parry from strength. I believe there's a GC post somewhere that stated they feel like the only reason we're taking the dps stats is because there's a lack of dodge/parry gear.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:37 pm

Fenrìr wrote:I should have probably said, 'dps stats are not their design function for plate tanks".

Yes...they like seeing tanks do DPS, but not to the point of where paladin tanks have taken haste stacking. The Strength gem probably did not see the dps gains that you may imagine. And we sort of do gain parry from strength. I believe there's a GC post somewhere that stated they feel like the only reason we're taking the dps stats is because there's a lack of dodge/parry gear.


GC's tweet, on Prot Paladins's love affair with Haste since Beta.
At the time we thought it was an undergeared problem because dodge doesn't matter when failing a dodge kills you.
We still sort of suspect that's the problem but it's become such a mantra that it's worth changing anyway.

Also, from a blue post of his:
We understand that having a lot of haste feels fun and visceral and is more dependable than dodge and parry.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:46 pm

Hrm, I wonder why I couldn't find it. But that's interesting, I suppose I was not hearing it in it's full context.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:17 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Fetzie wrote:
Darielle wrote:^ Not only that, but why is there going to be a need on their end to actively push tanks away from the dps cloak?


They could always add in a "this will deal overkill damage no matter how much health you have" ability once every .... 60 seconds? :D


'cept that none of the raids are supposed to be balanced around having legendaries.

With a legendary so easy to obtain, I find it obvious that heroic mode will be balanced around whole raid (or almost whole) having legendary.

It's obvious, either balance around it, or it'll be too easy to do with the whole raid with legendary cloak.

Remember, most of the 5th step is solo play, and it requires no raid clearing. That means that most people will have the cloak within the first week, if not the first day.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:48 am

Most of the people that were around since the very start...

I have friends coming back to the game. Friends that were very good and used to do heroic encounters during earlier expansions. They just started LFR farming the sigils to start on the legendary (even though there's very little use for gear from those instances).

If 5.4 comes out in September, they will not have their legendary cloaks by then. Should they be screwed over, because they didn't play from the start of MoP? That doesn't really feel welcoming to new and returning players...
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:56 am

Either balance heroic SoO around most of the raid having the cloak, or see it facerolled by legendary procs.

Just a note, "balanced around the cloak", for me means it's balanced around people with 540ish ilvl and legendary cloak.
You can still do it without cloaks, just having a bit better gear (basically, having farmed normal SoO for a bit)
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:57 am

They should very well along their way tbh. Sigils drop like they're candy. At the moment, in order to catch up, the longest part is the 3 weeks of valor then you're practically where a good majority of people are. I have people in my raid team still trying to get all the Secrets and they've been playing since MoP.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:37 am

With a legendary so easy to obtain, I find it obvious that heroic mode will be balanced around whole raid (or almost whole) having legendary.

It's obvious, either balance around it, or it'll be too easy to do with the whole raid with legendary cloak.

Remember, most of the 5th step is solo play, and it requires no raid clearing. That means that most people will have the cloak within the first week, if not the first day.


Solo play does not necessarily mean will be done within the first week. It's more than possible that Timeless Coins could be gated.

There's a vast range where Timeless Coins could be as easy to get as killing stuff ad infinity, a bit rarer like Shan'ze Ritual Stones, or gated like Radical Mojo or Lei Shen's Keys.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:39 am

Well, thing is, you can probably expect a couple of players in Normals to have it, while most of them will have it very soon when they start tackling Heroics.

Thinking about it, it would make lots of sense to make it available early in the patch - what's the mechanical point of a Legendary in the last patch if you've already completed the content?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Zalaria » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:57 am

Sagara wrote:Well, thing is, you can probably expect a couple of players in Normals to have it, while most of them will have it very soon when they start tackling Heroics.

Thinking about it, it would make lots of sense to make it available early in the patch - what's the mechanical point of a Legendary in the last patch if you've already completed the content?


Most legendaries in the past have come from the final boss or required it as part of the quest line. Completing the content in normal mode first is nothing new.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Malthrax » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:57 am

Sagara wrote:Well, thing is, you can probably expect a couple of players in Normals to have it, while most of them will have it very soon when they start tackling Heroics.

Thinking about it, it would make lots of sense to make it available early in the patch - what's the mechanical point of a Legendary in the last patch if you've already completed the content?


http://www.wowhead.com/item=22589
http://www.wowhead.com/item=34334
http://www.wowhead.com/item=71086
http://www.wowhead.com/item=49623

Bliz has a loooooooooong history of exactly that.
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