Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:58 pm

Darielle wrote:^ Not only that, but why is there going to be a need on their end to actively push tanks away from the dps cloak?


Because DPS stats are not in their design function for tanks?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fetzie » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:01 pm

Darielle wrote:^ Not only that, but why is there going to be a need on their end to actively push tanks away from the dps cloak?


They could always add in a "this will deal overkill damage no matter how much health you have" ability once every .... 60 seconds? :D
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:11 pm

Fetzie wrote:
Darielle wrote:^ Not only that, but why is there going to be a need on their end to actively push tanks away from the dps cloak?


They could always add in a "this will deal overkill damage no matter how much health you have" ability once every .... 60 seconds? :D


'cept that none of the raids are supposed to be balanced around having legendaries.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:06 pm

Because DPS stats are not in their design function for tanks?


Hardly - in fact, for Agi users, the DPS cloak would be the perfect stats while the Dodge cloak is the one with the really weird and terrible stat, AND the stats are pretty irrelevant to the procs anyway, since having some Avoidance is not exactly a bad tradeoff for hilarious procs.

And if er went by that logic, Capacitance would have gotten trucked hard. And the Sha-Touched gem for Strength-tanks wouldn't have been ..... Strength.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:33 pm

I should have probably said, 'dps stats are not their design function for plate tanks".

Yes...they like seeing tanks do DPS, but not to the point of where paladin tanks have taken haste stacking. The Strength gem probably did not see the dps gains that you may imagine. And we sort of do gain parry from strength. I believe there's a GC post somewhere that stated they feel like the only reason we're taking the dps stats is because there's a lack of dodge/parry gear.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:37 pm

Fenrìr wrote:I should have probably said, 'dps stats are not their design function for plate tanks".

Yes...they like seeing tanks do DPS, but not to the point of where paladin tanks have taken haste stacking. The Strength gem probably did not see the dps gains that you may imagine. And we sort of do gain parry from strength. I believe there's a GC post somewhere that stated they feel like the only reason we're taking the dps stats is because there's a lack of dodge/parry gear.


GC's tweet, on Prot Paladins's love affair with Haste since Beta.
At the time we thought it was an undergeared problem because dodge doesn't matter when failing a dodge kills you.
We still sort of suspect that's the problem but it's become such a mantra that it's worth changing anyway.

Also, from a blue post of his:
We understand that having a lot of haste feels fun and visceral and is more dependable than dodge and parry.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:46 pm

Hrm, I wonder why I couldn't find it. But that's interesting, I suppose I was not hearing it in it's full context.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:17 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Fetzie wrote:
Darielle wrote:^ Not only that, but why is there going to be a need on their end to actively push tanks away from the dps cloak?


They could always add in a "this will deal overkill damage no matter how much health you have" ability once every .... 60 seconds? :D


'cept that none of the raids are supposed to be balanced around having legendaries.

With a legendary so easy to obtain, I find it obvious that heroic mode will be balanced around whole raid (or almost whole) having legendary.

It's obvious, either balance around it, or it'll be too easy to do with the whole raid with legendary cloak.

Remember, most of the 5th step is solo play, and it requires no raid clearing. That means that most people will have the cloak within the first week, if not the first day.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:48 am

Most of the people that were around since the very start...

I have friends coming back to the game. Friends that were very good and used to do heroic encounters during earlier expansions. They just started LFR farming the sigils to start on the legendary (even though there's very little use for gear from those instances).

If 5.4 comes out in September, they will not have their legendary cloaks by then. Should they be screwed over, because they didn't play from the start of MoP? That doesn't really feel welcoming to new and returning players...
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:56 am

Either balance heroic SoO around most of the raid having the cloak, or see it facerolled by legendary procs.

Just a note, "balanced around the cloak", for me means it's balanced around people with 540ish ilvl and legendary cloak.
You can still do it without cloaks, just having a bit better gear (basically, having farmed normal SoO for a bit)
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:57 am

They should very well along their way tbh. Sigils drop like they're candy. At the moment, in order to catch up, the longest part is the 3 weeks of valor then you're practically where a good majority of people are. I have people in my raid team still trying to get all the Secrets and they've been playing since MoP.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:37 am

With a legendary so easy to obtain, I find it obvious that heroic mode will be balanced around whole raid (or almost whole) having legendary.

It's obvious, either balance around it, or it'll be too easy to do with the whole raid with legendary cloak.

Remember, most of the 5th step is solo play, and it requires no raid clearing. That means that most people will have the cloak within the first week, if not the first day.


Solo play does not necessarily mean will be done within the first week. It's more than possible that Timeless Coins could be gated.

There's a vast range where Timeless Coins could be as easy to get as killing stuff ad infinity, a bit rarer like Shan'ze Ritual Stones, or gated like Radical Mojo or Lei Shen's Keys.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:39 am

Well, thing is, you can probably expect a couple of players in Normals to have it, while most of them will have it very soon when they start tackling Heroics.

Thinking about it, it would make lots of sense to make it available early in the patch - what's the mechanical point of a Legendary in the last patch if you've already completed the content?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Zalaria » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:57 am

Sagara wrote:Well, thing is, you can probably expect a couple of players in Normals to have it, while most of them will have it very soon when they start tackling Heroics.

Thinking about it, it would make lots of sense to make it available early in the patch - what's the mechanical point of a Legendary in the last patch if you've already completed the content?


Most legendaries in the past have come from the final boss or required it as part of the quest line. Completing the content in normal mode first is nothing new.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Malthrax » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:57 am

Sagara wrote:Well, thing is, you can probably expect a couple of players in Normals to have it, while most of them will have it very soon when they start tackling Heroics.

Thinking about it, it would make lots of sense to make it available early in the patch - what's the mechanical point of a Legendary in the last patch if you've already completed the content?


http://www.wowhead.com/item=22589
http://www.wowhead.com/item=34334
http://www.wowhead.com/item=71086
http://www.wowhead.com/item=49623

Bliz has a loooooooooong history of exactly that.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:07 am

Not saying the contrary, just stating that it's basically dumb, and we shouldn't actually be surprised, in an x-pack that tries to shuffle things up for Legendaries to actually... wait for it... THINK about what to do about legendaries.

I know, it's crazy in our doom and gloom wow commmunity to think that maybe, just maybe, a couple brain cells at Blizz HQ could collide and spark ideas. But maybe they are, I don't know, a successful gaming company?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby benebarba » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:54 am

Sagara wrote:Not saying the contrary, just stating that it's basically dumb, and we shouldn't actually be surprised, in an x-pack that tries to shuffle things up for Legendaries to actually... wait for it... THINK about what to do about legendaries.

I know, it's crazy in our doom and gloom wow commmunity to think that maybe, just maybe, a couple brain cells at Blizz HQ could collide and spark ideas. But maybe they are, I don't know, a successful gaming company?


From a design stand-point, there seem to be *a lot* of things in Mists that appear to be throwing 'convention', seemingly to test the idea of changing/reverting paradigms (or at least the philosophy behind) for certain things in the game.

VP aquisition and requirements for spending are another example, The role of 5-mans and LFR in progression, etc. So no, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they changed how they view legendaries. I seem to recall either a blog post or a watercooler-like thing about the trouble with the design of legendary items (and their acquisition) in general.

though I did find this gem by GC from a cataclysm post mortem:
Speaking of raids, we also weren’t particularly happy with how accessible legendary items became in Cataclysm. Multiple characters in a single raiding guild were getting, and worse, expecting a legendary weapon. Legendaries are supposed to be rare and exciting, not a bar you fill up like some reputation grind, and certainly not something you feel entitled to get because it’s “your turn.”



Somehow I feel like that last bit got tossed out pretty early in the design of MOP, since that pretty much describes what legendary acquisition has become.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:19 am

In terms of the legendary acquistion, it's just the nature of the game now tbh. The ones you could get in Vanilla / TBC were like "oh shit...a legendary, not needed, but thanks." Then in TBC with Shadowmourne, it started to change with 'amgod, need noa'.

I just feel like the casual player base has really affected how legendaries are acquire more so than people realize.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fetzie » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:34 am

If they hadn't moved to this idea of expansion-spanning progression for everybody, I'd have much rather they scrap legendaries altogether. They were nothing but a source of major headaches for everybody, but especially those who had to make the decision as to who got one and who did not.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:43 am

The real good thing was to switch the onus of the legendary story to the player instead of the guild.
Although, in all honestly, I'd have held that to Normals and Heroics (and now to Flex as well).
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:12 am

Have to say, it's still refreshing to not have guild drama over legendary item progression, people jumping guilds to have a better chance, and no more "LFM Ulduar Shards are reserved".

I wouldn't mind going back to a legendary drop, but the days of guilds boosting 1 player for months to get a legendary just for that player to unsub at the end can DIAF.

And really, the current model, even though it is "Legendaries for almost everyone", still gets far more players involved in the questline, gets them more engaged than they might otherwise be, and also provides some challenging solo content. Why is that so bad?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:15 am

5.4 should remove the VP step or drop it to 1K VP. It will be a non-needed gate at that point, especially with the reputation requirements for The Black Prince still in there.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby benebarba » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:18 am

Fetzie wrote:If they hadn't moved to this idea of expansion-spanning progression for everybody, I'd have much rather they scrap legendaries altogether. They were nothing but a source of major headaches for everybody, but especially those who had to make the decision as to who got one and who did not.


I think I'd rather seem them scrapped or relabeled, since this seems to be working it's way into the troubles that they realized with the Path of the Titans. Frankly, the current model just doesn't seem very sustainable (from a player perspective), since it seems like it would only exaggerate gear inflation. From Blizzard's perspective, I guess it does give players one more thing to do (and possibly stay subscribed for).

I think I prefer the idea that Legendaries are this really meaningful thing (group of things, really) out there that was closely tied into the story/lore of the game (not necessarily the current expansion, and perhaps not even always attainable after being introduced)... but I think it was a mistake to make them more than a largely cosmetic item with maybe some fun on-use or procs that didn't make them combat items.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:19 am

benebarba wrote:though I did find this gem by GC from a cataclysm post mortem:
Speaking of raids, we also weren’t particularly happy with how accessible legendary items became in Cataclysm. Multiple characters in a single raiding guild were getting, and worse, expecting a legendary weapon. Legendaries are supposed to be rare and exciting, not a bar you fill up like some reputation grind, and certainly not something you feel entitled to get because it’s “your turn.”



Somehow I feel like that last bit got tossed out pretty early in the design of MOP, since that pretty much describes what legendary acquisition has become.


I'm not sure that's entirely fair to say. The old system was problematic for all of the reasons they gave. But they didn't go with a weapon this time for exactly that reason. I think they're testing out the "everyone gets a Legendary, but it will take a long time and lots of effort over the entire expansion with smaller rewards along the way" idea. Choosing a cloak makes sense in that context, because having everyone running around with a legendary weapon would be silly.

It sort of tosses out the "rare and exciting" part, but I think that's intentional. Anything rare gets abused the same way Dragonwrath did, unless you somehow tie it to guild. And that has its own problems (is it fair to void items when the guild disbands and reforms under new leadership? What if the GM says "peace" and gkicks everyone? etc.).
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:29 am

benebarba wrote:I think I'd rather seem them scrapped or relabeled, since this seems to be working it's way into the troubles that they realized with the Path of the Titans. Frankly, the current model just doesn't seem very sustainable (from a player perspective), since it seems like it would only exaggerate gear inflation. From Blizzard's perspective, I guess it does give players one more thing to do (and possibly stay subscribed for).


The current system is my favorite of the tried methods. Miles better than the "Farm molten Core for 4 years and never get a binding" or "oh you killed a boss so here's a sword!" or "okay, this week it is Mage X's turn and next week we start n Warlock Y." It also addresses a complaint people had in that it offers an expansion long chain.
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