Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby stevos » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:58 pm

The main question with the cloaks, is how long will it take to get. If its 3+ months, other gearing both tank and healers, will massively rebalance the scales between the dps and tanking one. First kill of Birdy heroic, the 2nd rake would almost one shot me with a cd up, now I can take 2 without even bothering with a cd, I try to still play optimally on the boss but its hard to focus fully on fights you have on farm for months.

Will have to see how other gearing up works this coming tier, but switching cloaks again would be a pain in the bank. It's around 10k isn't it to buy another?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:21 pm

My understanding of the questline is that it's all solo-play except for the world bosses part.

Thus i wouldnt be surprised if people will have it pn week 1 of 5.4 even if droprates are stupid
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:34 pm

Meloree wrote:Quantify? Fucked if I know. But the day I got that cloak, I'd start by trading both trinkets for pure DPS options, every stamina gem I had for a gem with DPS stats, and I would still be well ahead of where I started on survival. I'm not sure it's possible to overstate just how powerful cheat death once per minute is. Even when I was parse-hunting, I wasn't close to death a whole once per minute. It is SO MUCH safety margin.

I mean, you have to develop some kind of instinct for this sort of thing as a tank. Theck hasn't quite developed the "read a WoL to evaluate your raid and tell you the ideal stats" program just yet. If you're not dying, you start trading away pure survival (stamina) for DPS (haste). Haste has survival benefits, sure, but it's not as good as stamina. You're giving some (small) amount of survival up to get haste. So, I recognize that's a bit handwavy, but when parse-hunting, you make a point of operating on the thinnest survival margins you can - and it's a valuable skill to learn, because it'll give you some kind of idea of what you can get away with, and how to play when survival really is a challenge. Anyway, it's from that perspective that I'm coming from when I say that I'm pretty sure that cloak proc is worth more DPS than you're giving it credit for. I was a pretty good parse hunter, I know where the margins are. And a proc like that is worth a whole metric fuckton of margin.

And yes - equipping the DPS cloak for even more hilarity is almost exactly what parse-hunters would do. Once things were on farm.

Anyway, I can't prove it or anything. But I do have a pretty good track record.


You know, that's make a very interesting blog entry - how to evaluate yourself in success like in failure, how to evaluate your tradeoff options and choose the right ones. Right now, I'm really working on [not dead or nearly dead] -> [lose stam for moar haeest], until I actually DO die, as I'm absolute crap at parse-reading. Now if only there was a nice Paladin tanking blog somewhere out there ;-)
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby stevos » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:08 am

It misses the key part, your not comparing apples to apples. You need to look at the death events individually and see if the cheat death would have actually saved you or if a fraction of a second after you would have died again resulting in no net gain. Its not something you can look at parses, since they don't tell you what you would have been hit for, after you died.

Your also unlikely to see two death events close together on purses because you would be dead after the first and if rezzed the healers will probably be watching you more closely afterwards.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:22 am

Well, usually, when I'm close to dying, healers have this thing called instinct where suddently a fuckton of heals are headed my way pronto. The whole "watch more closely afterwards" works just as well after a non-lethal health drop surprised them.

Honestly, the "you die, and die AGAIN" doesn't hold much water, especially in the aftermath of the automatic Ardent Defender being nerfed to hell and beyond because how stupid OP it was.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby stevos » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:36 am

Most tank deaths are caused by healers trading off tank heals to save the raid, so instincts isn't really relevant. Healers don't choose to let you die, they are too busy to stop it. When I am healing I ask myself can I gamble on the tank surviving long enough for this raid heal to land and then a 2sec greater heal to land.

Ardent defender was only overpowered because people exploited it to get around certain boss abilities. I am assuming bliz will design the bosses around that knowledge.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:46 am

Current ardent defender still allowed that (and was nerfed) even if it's active.

The OPness of old AD was the fact it was passive, allowing you to gamble a lot, cause "if i do something wrong, AD backs me up".

As I said, people who don't realize how blatantly OP the tank cloak proc is, clearly didn't play Prot pala (or with one) at heroic level in WotLK.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:49 am

stevos wrote:Most tank deaths are caused by healers trading off tank heals to save the raid, so instincts isn't really relevant. Healers don't choose to let you die, they are too busy to stop it. When I am healing I ask myself can I gamble on the tank surviving long enough for this raid heal to land and then a 2sec greater heal to land.


So basically, what we would need are like 2 extra secs to be brought out of the danger zone by the healers? Like, say, if some proc happened to negate a deadly attack? Gotcha. Also, before the what if there are TWO deadly attacks back to back!!! that would imply that we have two deadly attacks back to back in that window of opportunity - one melee + one special, most probably, one of which is probably predictable and predicted. You ALSO need to have all the healers focusing the raid due to some massive damage.

Look, the short of it is: it's going to save our butts at one time or another, either because we derped or a healer did, or the damage intake has gone out of whack for some reason. Those events aren't going to last long, and if they did, we'd probably be planning a CD around it and they'd probably be less dangerous to us. So the choice is simple: either we wipe, blame whomever fucked up and try again, or we take one for the team, lose 10k dps TOPS, keep living, and maybe, just maybe get that kill.

Ardent defender was only overpowered because people exploited it to get around certain boss abilities. I am assuming bliz will design the bosses around that knowledge.


Like they did with Divine Shiled this very expac. Oh.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby stevos » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:11 am

Another kill event is a big attack takes you down to 20% health say. The following melee then kills you. You survive the melee thanks to the cloak and then the tick from a tank switching stackinj DoT (bliz loves them) finishes the job. With or without the cloak you die.

We already have a cheat death in AD/ guardian spirit l for the predictable deaths, its the unpredictable ones where this would come in handy and that's unpredictable for us and the healers.

Edit: don't get me wrong it's a great addition and very powerful, I just don't think it's as powerful as it first looks.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:35 am

Thing is it's unpredictable stuff that kills tanks, not predictable one. If you die on a predictable damage ability, you did something wrong.

AND even if you DID do something wrong, the cloak would save you.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby lythac » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:47 am

theckhd wrote:This proc lets you make one mistake per minute without penalty.


I'm thinking of boss swapping fights where it will be active for longer. Also it could help sub-par tanks/healers with poor communication/coordination on boss swapping fights. I'm actually unsure if that is a cause of death anymore or will be in the new raid. The cloak enchant seems to be a huge crutch for the less skilled when they hit a brick wall in progression, especially for 10 mans as it makes the transition from 3 to 2 healers easier.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby stevos » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:13 am

True, I was more thinking that the dots tend to hit pretty hard on the stack before you switch. That tends to be the point where tank deaths are most likely. Rather than at the point of the switch.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:20 am

Even there, buying healers that 1 second of extra time (between the killing dot tick and the following tick or melee attack) for their reflex to press guardian spirit, or to land that big healing touch, can turn a wipe into a kill.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Ironshield » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:59 am

When I die there are one of two things happening, either I'm going WTF was that?? oh that ability I forgot about or something similar in which case tank cloak FTW!!! Or I'm low on health for a bit longer than expected (healers are distracted) and I'm desperately spamming my WoG / Healthstone / LoH / AD keys to get something up but D'oh to late... in which cast tank cloak FTW!!!

Think of it like 1 free battle rez per minute without the need to rebuff or lose your food / elixir buffs. If more than one person dies the BR ALWAYS goes to Tank > Healer > DPS unless it's right at the end / or it's the other tank that died and I still have a bubble in the hole.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:01 am

As I said, people who don't realize how blatantly OP the tank cloak proc is, clearly didn't play Prot pala (or with one) at heroic level in WotLK.


For very, very many reasons WotLK was wayyyy too different of an era to try and compare this cloak to. If we'd in any way had the same toolkit that we have now to bring to bear on Heroic Lich King, it would have been an entirely different story.

When you actually think about it, a boss like Horridon makes H-LK look like an adorable kitten and Heroic Megaera makes Sarth look like a little whelp.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:10 am

Darielle wrote:
As I said, people who don't realize how blatantly OP the tank cloak proc is, clearly didn't play Prot pala (or with one) at heroic level in WotLK.


For very, very many reasons WotLK was wayyyy too different of an era to try and compare this cloak to. If we'd in any way had the same toolkit that we have now to bring to bear on Heroic Lich King, it would have been an entirely different story.


*MEEEEEP* The toolkits have changed, but unless I've jumped games in the interim, our core job is pretty much the same.
Seriously, with our current toolkit, HLK would have been vastly different as well - expect him to have Killing Blow from Ra-Den, for example.

If you had to actually evaluate its worth, this proc is a free I-don't-know-how-much stamina, once per minute, that occurs ONLY if you actually need it, without player input. So basically, a free metric fuckton of stamina.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:20 am

*MEEEEEP* The toolkits have changed, but unless I've jumped games in the interim, our core job is pretty much the same.
Seriously, with our current toolkit, HLK would have been vastly different as well - expect him to have Killing Blow from Ra-Den, for example.


The abilities are one thing, stuff like Fatal Strike can exist purely because of the way AM works, but that's not the only thing.

WotLK was an era where we literally only had one cd, and had to glyph Salv to gain access to another. The ability to even have a 1 min cooldown was so precious and valuable because it opened up so many options. WotLK AD wasn't just amazing from the new shiny automatic aspect of it, it was amazing because that it opened up situations those precious cooldowns could be held on to.

They're not quite so precious or scarce right now.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenris » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:21 am

Glyph of Scattered Thoughts (NYI) Your Scatter Shot no longer Disorients the target, but now interrupts their spellcasts, preventing any spells in the same school from being cast for 4 sec, and Scatter Shot's range is increased by 0 yards.

They are clearly messing with hunters on purpose now :D

The only thing i can think about it that makes sense is that they are going to remove silencing so you are forced to glyph for the interrupt (== one less CC,but SS still avaiable to every spec )
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:28 am

What I really don't realize about the cloak discussion, is why so many people feel so necessary to sacrifice such a strong passive cooldown, for a proc that will possibly be very minor for a tank, and some haste that you won't even need in SoS as people are already at or very close to 50% haste now.

If it was a extremely op dps cloak, like the meta gem is who accounts for even more than 10% total dps, I'd understand.
But this proc doesn't seemb anywhere as strong to warrant the loss of a passive safety net.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:34 am

What I really don't realize about the cloak discussion, is why so many people feel so necessary to sacrifice such a strong passive cooldown, for a proc that will possibly be very minor for a tank, and some haste that you won't even need in SoS as people are already at or very close to 50% haste now.

If it was a extremely op dps cloak, like the meta gem is who accounts for even more than 10% total dps, I'd understand.


I would say that people ARE expecting the cloak proc to be on par with Capacitance, and probably even assuming it would be better - given that it's the last chain of the legendary on the last patch of an expansion where Blizzard doesn't really hold back and for the damage proc to be as salivatory to damage as the tank proc is to us.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:44 am

I still also wonder what would happen if every tank hybrid in the raid wears the tank cloak to cheese mechanics, random thought.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:50 am

Well, in practice, couldn't *everyone* buy one? THe only one that might not be able to would be the clothies.

Actually, thinking about it, I'm wondering why THAT hasn't been discussed to hell and back? How many wipes could 25 ARDENT DEFENDERS ON A ONE MINUTE-CD save up?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Treck » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:53 am

Its much more than that.
comparing gem vs cloaks:
dps gem = reliable 7-10% dps increase
tank gem= unreliable (but still strong) cd, aka you cant count on it and should play as tho its not there and then you sort of take less dmg now and then.
Cloaks (STILL PTR NOT EVEN HOW THE PROCC WILL WORK IS FINALIZED, its all speculations so far)
dps=reliable dps increase (we still dont have any clue how strong this will be) and sorry to burst your bubble but I would say that 99% SoI WONT procc from it, even if it would it would be unreliable burst healing.
tank=reliable tank saver, even if you survive half a sec longer due to it, it might be enough to use your AM heals or other panic buttons that are off CD, No one is perfect and this proc makes you able to play recklessly as hell as a tank, then if it proccs you play safe for a minute.

I honestly cant understand people blindly going for the dps cloak (at this moment) cause we know how strong the tank procc is, while we have no clue about the dps versions strength other than 900 haste.
I bet all those will completely ignore the CD reduction trinket as well, cause its got icky stamina, and they never die anyway so using CDs more ofthen is useless, oh and 4p is such a waste of stats right?
Also, would there ever be any kind of "tank Cd procc" that would ever outshine the dps one? cause if I had to come up with an overpowered tank procc, this would be it.


This cloak will be bread and butter, and even freaking useless DKs with cloak will have higher survivability than a pallytank without it.
Unless you do content stupidly overgeared with insane healers and horrible dps, tank procc should be your choise.
Id take the freaking cloak if it gave 0stats, and people whine its got dodge and parry.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:58 am

Treck wrote:I honestly cant understand people blindly going for the dps cloak (at this moment)

Neither can I, my guild's tanks and officers yelled at me for having no clue about tanks work when I proposed them to use the tank cloak.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Treck » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:59 am

Sagara wrote:Well, in practice, couldn't *everyone* buy one? THe only one that might not be able to would be the clothies.

Actually, thinking about it, I'm wondering why THAT hasn't been discussed to hell and back? How many wipes could 25 ARDENT DEFENDERS ON A ONE MINUTE-CD save up?

Its a pretty big dps increase for the dpsers to use the tank cloaks on progess, its either going to be disabled if you are not in tank specc or have some limit to the absorb, but even there its good. but no pallytanks want that 900 haste cause they never die
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