Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby bldavis » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:39 am

same here...and i didnt catch that they were separate lockouts...oh well
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:50 am

Gruck wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:If it meant I could finish the idiot collection quest RIGHT THE FUCK now, I would be all over that.
So true!



Nice one Gruck, nice one.. :lol:
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:52 am

Sagara wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:If this goes well it would be interesting if they abolish established raid sizes entirely next expansion. Balancing becomes nontrivial, and I don't even want to think about the calculus raid leaders will have to do. "Okay if we bring +1 healer boss HP goes up too much so we need +1 dps, but then we can't hit benchmarks so we need to drop one person, but then we have to take RHPS into account ..."


I'm guessing this is why they didn't simply apply Flex to Normal/Heroic modes. They're gonna have enough headaches to nurse already...


Still could head down that path. It might be the ultimate solution. 10-25, your choice.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:54 am

halabar wrote:Still could head down that path. It might be the ultimate solution. 10-25, your choice.


I'm hoping so. It would be nice to be able to raid without a "bench."
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:56 am

Andurin wrote:
Passionario wrote:If it can scale from 10 to 25, why not 5 to 40?


I think you`ll be stuck with raid mechanics that are really hard then. 10 to 25 man have one thing in common: 2 tank boss mechanics. Blowing it up to 40 shouldnt be a problem, but if you scale it down to 5, they would have to completely skip some mechanics, not sure if that would work. But I wouldnt mind 5 to 40 man raids tbh (since we have problems getting 10 people already).


40 has some problems with encounter design. Imagine 40 people it Tortos's room. They would have to adjust raid design to allow for 40 again.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:02 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Have to wonder if this will cause even more attrition to the 25 man raiding format. This could bleed off what remains of casual 25 man raid guilds into the new, more accessible difficulty, so that 25 man winds up really being the domain of just high end heroic raiders. Mind you, it could have a similar effect on casual 10 man guilds, but 25 man groups are already harder to maintain.

Not saying this is an automatic negative, just pondering.

On the other hand, if this means that normal modes as easy as Dragon Soul was are dead and buried, it's probably a good thing for raiders. And hey, the last two tiers have already killed off the expectation of progress that casual raid guilds had built up during WotLK and Cataclysm (witness the number that got stuck at Garalon, and in first wing ToT), so those players may be more willing to accept that this new tier is aimed at them and they're not expected to push through normal mode too.


Re: Four difficulty modes, I'm inclined to say that LFR hardly counts, since it's a quick and dirty faceroll with an automatically generated group, something to do to fill gaps.

LFR is for non-raiders to see the content and also to help people gear up. Flex raid is for casual groups and pugs, the "everyone who wants to raid can get a chance" mode. Normal and Heroic are for dedicated raiders - and I do think Normal still serves a purpose.


Based on a limited survey in my casual raid group last night, flex will almost certainly replace our LFR night. If we actually clear current content before 5.4 drops (not a certainty) we might do LFR one night, flex the next for a couple weeks to gear up, and then do Flex/Normal on those two nights.

But the RL is LOVING the idea of being able to bring the 20-24 that are on and ready, and not having to pug.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:06 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
halabar wrote:Still could head down that path. It might be the ultimate solution. 10-25, your choice.


I'm hoping so. It would be nice to be able to raid without a "bench."

But is it really worth it if the content is less challenging and the gear is lower ilevel? I don't feel like it'll be proper prep for heroic modes.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:06 am

Qeeze wrote:
lythac wrote:My main concern is the quality of players in LFR is going to take a complete nosedive. Normal raiders who raid Normal and LFR will instead raid Normal and Flex.

For 25 man guilds I wonder if their 10 man alt runs will be replaced by Flex runs instead.


Without a doubt LFR will suffer the most when /flex goes in. I think that's Blizzards intent to be honest. In many ways this will make Open Raid and yes /2, the defacto tools guilds use to insure raids happen. Flex raids will allow guilds to learn fights faster and develop effective strategies for normal and heroic. The ability to bring in players with more experience to help groups beat fights is a good thing for the game.



Pugging will suffer too. More groups will be doing Flex with their mixed groups, and not trolling trade for fill in spots.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:09 am

Nikachelle wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:
halabar wrote:Still could head down that path. It might be the ultimate solution. 10-25, your choice.


I'm hoping so. It would be nice to be able to raid without a "bench."

But is it really worth it if the content is less challenging and the gear is lower ilevel? I don't feel like it'll be proper prep for heroic modes.


You're looking at it wrong.

Consider in 6.0 that there is no more 10 or 25 normals, there's only Flex normal difficulty. No bench, and no canceling if only 20 show up, and no complaining here about some jackass you needed for your 25th spot.

I imagine heroics would stay at 10 and 25.

They are testing the waters here. If the scaling goes well, my money is on Normals getting this treatment in 6.0.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Flex » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:11 am

so I was right?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:12 am

Re: Having the same gear at different ilevels killing the need to run multiples - it reduces but doesn't eliminate the need. If you have, say, 489 gear, and if LFR gives 502, Flex gives 516, and Normal gives 522, if you don't get a drop in Normal you're still gonna want to try the next one down because it'd stil be an upgrade. All depends on your current gear level and your luck with drops.

halabar wrote:Based on a limited survey in my casual raid group last night, flex will almost certainly replace our LFR night. If we actually clear current content before 5.4 drops (not a certainty) we might do LFR one night, flex the next for a couple weeks to gear up, and then do Flex/Normal on those two nights.

But the RL is LOVING the idea of being able to bring the 20-24 that are on and ready, and not having to pug.

If you're actually doing an organised LFR run, you're probably in a very small minority. It's definately the domain of random people who need some extra valor/low gear/etc - this new mode is filling a niche that LFR may have been aimed at in its original conception, but not in how it was implemented.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:14 am

bldavis wrote:honestly i hope they have shared lockouts between /flex, normal and heroic on a toon by toon basis
that way you can have your normal 10 man, your alt flex, and your solo queue LFR

LFR can still be hey lets get easy valor and a chance at an upgrade for that one slot that still hasnt dropped in normal/heroic

i think this way you dont feel like it is mandatory to raid 4 times each week (toc flashbacks anyone?)


Ye of too many alts to gear. :lol:

Actually, if anything, LFR and Flex should share a lockout, and Normal and Heroic share a lockout.

But I don't mind another lockout. Just means less time spent on alts, and faster gearing for the main.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:18 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Re: Having the same gear at different ilevels killing the need to run multiples - it reduces but doesn't eliminate the need. If you have, say, 489 gear, and if LFR gives 502, Flex gives 516, and Normal gives 522, if you don't get a drop in Normal you're still gonna want to try the next one down because it'd stil be an upgrade. All depends on your current gear level and your luck with drops.

halabar wrote:Based on a limited survey in my casual raid group last night, flex will almost certainly replace our LFR night. If we actually clear current content before 5.4 drops (not a certainty) we might do LFR one night, flex the next for a couple weeks to gear up, and then do Flex/Normal on those two nights.

But the RL is LOVING the idea of being able to bring the 20-24 that are on and ready, and not having to pug.

If you're actually doing an organised LFR run, you're probably in a very small minority. It's definately the domain of random people who need some extra valor/low gear/etc - this new mode is filling a niche that LFR may have been aimed at in its original conception, but not in how it was implemented.


It should help fill those gear gaps.

We were doing semi-organized LFR runs to help gear up new people that really needed to catch up. Now it's morphing into Runestone runs along with alt gearing, besides gearing up a few new people.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby benebarba » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:19 am

Flex wrote:so I was right?

and they named it after you! :P
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Flex » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:22 am

benebarba wrote:
Flex wrote:so I was right?

and they named it after you! :P


Rawr!
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:23 am

halabar wrote:They are testing the waters here. If the scaling goes well, my money is on Normals getting this treatment in 6.0.


I'm hoping flex takes over everything, including heroics.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Flex » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:24 am

Flex size technology applied to all raids, but difficulty levels still remain.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:31 am

Not really going to happen.

The main difference between 10 and 25 is the fact that 25 demands spams of raid cds whereas in 10 hc you can go with less and minor ones.

I wouldn't know how to make the game decide when you have enough cds to demand constant use of them
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Flex » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:32 am

Worldie wrote:Not really going to happen.

The main difference between 10 and 25 is the fact that 25 demands spams of raid cds whereas in 10 hc you can go with less and minor ones.

I wouldn't know how to make the game decide when you have enough cds to demand constant use of them


They could think of new ways to test healers than KILL ALL THE PEOPLE!
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:33 am

And even if there was a way to be honest, imagine it'sat X available cds, then everyone would alwayso go with X-1 cds available to make it easier, defeaitng the point of the flexibility
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:37 am

halabar wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:
I'm hoping so. It would be nice to be able to raid without a "bench."

But is it really worth it if the content is less challenging and the gear is lower ilevel? I don't feel like it'll be proper prep for heroic modes.


You're looking at it wrong.

Consider in 6.0 that there is no more 10 or 25 normals, there's only Flex normal difficulty. No bench, and no canceling if only 20 show up, and no complaining here about some jackass you needed for your 25th spot.

I imagine heroics would stay at 10 and 25.

They are testing the waters here. If the scaling goes well, my money is on Normals getting this treatment in 6.0.

I'm only looking at it wrong based on your own extrapolation. This isn't necessarily going to happen. It's a possibility, but it's not a certainty.

So if you're a 10 man raider and don't have enough people show up for a 10 man (say you've got 8 ) you're still shunned from Flex. I see it as more of a benefit to 25 man raiders who often don't have enough attendees (aside from the obvious benefit to family guilds who happen to raid).
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:41 am

Flex wrote:
They could think of new ways to test healers than KILL ALL THE PEOPLE!


They come up with interesting ways every now and then.
Think Tortos heroic for example.
But it's usually gimmicks, you cant just make all healers disc priests :)
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:42 am

Worldie wrote:And even if there was a way to be honest, imagine it'sat X available cds, then everyone would alwayso go with X-1 cds available to make it easier, defeaitng the point of the flexibility


And that's why I see this applying in the future to Normals, but not Heroics.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:43 am

Flex wrote:They could think of new ways to test healers than KILL ALL THE PEOPLE!


Pretty much every heroic fight we've worked on so far comes down to "shit on healers more."

I don't disagree that balancing and tuning would be very difficult, given current fight mechanics. I also don't think Blizzard isn't toying with the idea of changing encounter design philosophy to account for flex design.

For example, on fights that require raid-wide CDs you get around bringing CD+1 by debuffing the raid, and the like. Sated solved the problem of stacking shamans to win (hi SWP); similar design decisions could likewise prevent abuse -- er "creative use of game mechanics."
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:48 am

Nikachelle wrote:So if you're a 10 man raider and don't have enough people show up for a 10 man (say you've got 8 ) you're still shunned from Flex. I see it as more of a benefit to 25 man raiders who often don't have enough attendees (aside from the obvious benefit to family guilds who happen to raid).


Yeah, a problem there. But scaling raid sizes lower than 10 likely just wouldn't work.

But it might help save the raiding in larger guilds, where you had 10 raiding and 5 on the bench or playing with alts. If this does get applied to Normals, queue the drama when someone still doesn't get included.

I wonder how they would handle loot drops if this does get applied to normal? Likely there will be some artificial break points where another item drops 10-15-20-25.
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