Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fetzie » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:20 pm

I think I like the blue T16 best.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:32 am

Fenrìr wrote:bastards, let's just make monks more op.


They get it on their Dodge/Crit/Mastery cloak, so they at least sit out of Haste, but they'll probably reforge Dodge back to Haste, so it's only half a poor stat, while we end up with one and a half a poor stat after reforging.

Are we able to have both cloaks? If so, I would probably use the tanking one on learning new fights, and once we're getting the hang of the fight, switch to the DPS one.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:42 am

Differently from the epic ones, they aren't unique, so I'd assume you will be able to hold two
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Nooska » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:03 am

halabar wrote:Slippery Slope?...

New item on the PTR suggests that Blizz might sell XP boosts via the Blizzard store. 100% XP boost, duration unknown...

Also new pally tier. Damn, you guys have wings on your heads!


Naah, its just an RAF in a bottle instead of having to find someone to do an RAF with.

Also, it doesn't affect end game in any way, just lets you get there faster.
(And with Zahym's confirmation that they are working on "purchasing items in game" in ceratin regions, that makes me suspect we won't see it and its for the asian market.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenris » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:08 am

Newsom wrote:Would have looked soooo good without the chicken wings on the helm.

Yeah

But still,it's not that bad,it's the first helm i think i'd show out of this entire exp.

P.s:and as usual,"when in doubt,make a new version of judgment" applies here it seems :lol:
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Teranoid » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:58 am

Nooska wrote:
halabar wrote:Slippery Slope?...

New item on the PTR suggests that Blizz might sell XP boosts via the Blizzard store. 100% XP boost, duration unknown...

Also new pally tier. Damn, you guys have wings on your heads!


Naah, its just an RAF in a bottle instead of having to find someone to do an RAF with.

Also, it doesn't affect end game in any way, just lets you get there faster.
(And with Zahym's confirmation that they are working on "purchasing items in game" in ceratin regions, that makes me suspect we won't see it and its for the asian market.


If it's for stuff like faster leveling I have absolutely no issue with it. I highly doubt Blizzard is stupid enough to let you purchase gear or whatnot.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Meloree » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:54 pm

Fetzie wrote:However, when you are in almost no danger of dying except when it is already a de facto wipe, do you really need that additional safety net? If the DPS cloak effect procs Seal of Insight, that is 6 SoI procs in 3 seconds, or 300k healing. Depending on how often it procs (and don't forget that RPPM effects all scale with your haste) that additional burst of healing could be more useful than the cheat death proc.


Hi guys. Been a while. Miss me?

Assertion: The proc on the tank cloak is hilariously overpowered. So overpowered, in fact, that I contend that it's worth more DPS than the DPS cloak's stats and procs, even with the subpar itemization, in addition to being worth more survival than, roughly, anything that's ever been in the game before, barring 3.2 era Ardent Defender.

How is it worth DPS, you might ask? I contend that it is so hilariously good for raw survival that you could happily start reforging your stats into crit and come out ahead on survival AND dps over any other option.

Proof of assertion is left as an exercise for the reader. Because that is WAY easier on me.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:59 pm

The people who don't see how hilariously op the tank cloak is, probably didn't play in WotLK.

In Wotlk, when every single non pala tank on the game cried about the opness of ardent defender, everyone envyed how paladin tanks could safely ignore using tanking cooldowns, cause even if they did something wrong, AD would proc and they would continue playing like if nothing happened.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby theckhd » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:15 pm

Sagara wrote:Theck is nothing but the tool people use to prove they are NOT wrong.

Wait, did you just call me a tool?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Meloree » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:21 pm

theckhd wrote:
Sagara wrote:Theck is nothing but the tool people use to prove they are NOT wrong.

Wait, did you just call me a tool?

To be fair, Dr. T, I'm pretty sure it was a compliment.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:29 pm

Worldie wrote:The people who don't see how hilariously op the tank cloak is, probably didn't play in WotLK.

In Wotlk, when every single non pala tank on the game cried about the opness of ardent defender, everyone envyed how paladin tanks could safely ignore using tanking cooldowns, cause even if they did something wrong, AD would proc and they would continue playing like if nothing happened.

In WotLK we had bosses like Vezax that would take 30k off your health pool with one swing, and you had 35k life. Or the first of the Northrend beasts that would stack a massive bleed DoT on you, special attack you for 60% of your life and follow it up with a 40% swing. Healers had to spam their biggest and fastest heal because you could, literally, die within the next 1.5 seconds. Lich King 25H did 55-60k swings on a 60-70k health-pool. Remember how we chained cooldowns for heroic Festergut's third inhale phase just to survive?

You don't get those "100-10% in one swing" fights any more. I mean, yeah we have Horridon 25H, but then we have a 45% reduction for every single Triple Puncture and a decent proportion of the swings. In WotLK we didn't have that. In WotLK we would have been told by the game to take those hits to the face and stack stamina and armor because block was worthless and avoidance wasn't reliable enough because two hits behind each other would kill you with 40% overkill. That isn't how bosses work nowadays, and I would contend that the legendary cloak isn't as over-powered as auto-AD was because of this.
Last edited by Fetzie on Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:31 pm

Fetzie wrote:
Worldie wrote:The people who don't see how hilariously op the tank cloak is, probably didn't play in WotLK.

In Wotlk, when every single non pala tank on the game cried about the opness of ardent defender, everyone envyed how paladin tanks could safely ignore using tanking cooldowns, cause even if they did something wrong, AD would proc and they would continue playing like if nothing happened.

In WotLK we had bosses like Vezax that would take 30k off your health pool with one swing, and you had 35k life. Or the first of the Northrend beasts that would stack a massive bleed DoT on you, special attack you for 60% of your life and follow it up with a 40% swing. Healers had to spam their biggest and fastest heal because you could, literally, die within the next 1.5 seconds. Lich King 25H did 55-60k swings on a 60-70k health-pool. Remember how we chained cooldowns for heroic Festergut's third inhale phase just to survive?

You don't get those "100-10% in one swing" fights any more. I mean, yeah we have Horridon 25H, but then we have a 45% reduction for every single Triple Puncture. In WotLK we didn't have that. In WotLK we would have been told by the game to take those hits to the face and stack stamina and armor because block was worthless and avoidance wasn't reliable enough because two hits behind each other would kill you with 40% overkill. That isn't how bosses work nowadays, and I would contend that the legendary cloak isn't as over-powered as auto-AD was because of this.

There's several abilities (including triple puncture) in MoP that are "cooldown or die". What if you needed to use that cooldown before though cause someone messed up, and healers had to heal someone else, leaving you down a bit too long.
In a perfect world, this never happens. But heroic progression is nowhere close to the "perfect world".
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:33 pm

We can cover all of them (or damn near all of them) with ShoR though. We have a "shield wall-esque" cooldown for every Triple Puncture, every massive bite, every talon rake. Would those Impales from Gormok have been half as dangerous if we had had Shield of the Righteous? We could cover the entirety of the third Inhale at Festergut with Guardian of Ancient Kings and Sanctified Wrath/Holy Avenger.
Last edited by Fetzie on Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:34 pm

Wait, did you just call me a tool?


Isn't it awkward when people on the internet start speculating about your tool?

The people who don't see how hilariously op the tank cloak is, probably didn't play in WotLK.

In Wotlk, when every single non pala tank on the game cried about the opness of ardent defender, everyone envyed how paladin tanks could safely ignore using tanking cooldowns, cause even if they did something wrong, AD would proc and they would continue playing like if nothing happened.
....
There's several abilities (including triple puncture) in MoP that are "cooldown or die". What if you needed to use that cooldown before though cause someone messed up, and healers had to heal someone else, leaving you down a bit too long.
In a perfect world, this never happens. But heroic progression is nowhere close to the "perfect world".


What tanking cooldowns? This was WotLK. AD came in response to us needing a second cooldown that wasn't glyphed Salv.

And unlike WotLK out response to cooldown or die mechanics is no longer limited to "Shield Wall and Pray". The response to most mechanics is "keep using ShoR". This is slightly less true for other tanks - for example, as Druids depending on the mechanic we do have to rely on cd's being rotated but even there except for Snapping Bite (which really comes down to manage shield), we have passive Armour making it easier to handle anyway, and SD/FR/T&C is a cherry to smooth it out.

Comparing WotLK to now just doesn't really work.
Last edited by Darielle on Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Meloree » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:42 pm

Fetzie wrote:That isn't how bosses work nowadays, and I would contend that the legendary cloak isn't as over-powered as auto-AD was because of this.


Naa, it's actually even more powerful. It's on half the cooldown, it doesn't leave you at 15% health after the killing blow, and tanks are now capable of leveraging excess durability into additional DPS in ways that weren't available in Wrath.

Let me put it this way: If you are good, you can make use of the additional cooldown in your arsenal, become harder to kill, and leverage that additional survivability into moar pewpew, whether it be through more personal DPS, or through replacing a healer with another DPS. If you are bad, you get one free raid-wiping fuckup every minute.

The tank cloak should be the bar-none choice for tanks in absolutely every situation that is not "throwing all caution to the wind and accepting the risk of wipes in order to set world number 1 parses", which is a cause I can totally get behind.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:45 pm

Naa, it's actually even more powerful. It's on half the cooldown, it doesn't leave you at 15% health after the killing blow, and tanks are now capable of leveraging excess durability into additional DPS in ways that weren't available in Wrath.


It doesn't leave you at 15% health if you are taken from >15-0 by the killing blow.
If the special brought you to 2% health, and the following melee killed you, you'd definitely still be at 2% health.

The Vengeance cap and the flagging of abilities to not grant Vengeance should make it harder to abuse using this to play Vengeance. Maybe not impossible, but definitely not the same as now where you could use it to just cheese Decap to the face with zero cd's.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:54 pm

Meloree wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Sagara wrote:Theck is nothing but the tool people use to prove they are NOT wrong.

Wait, did you just call me a tool?

To be fair, Dr. T, I'm pretty sure it was a compliment.


For the record, it half was, and it half was a kick in those that think spouting theck's numbers around without thinking makes them sound smart.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Meloree » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:08 pm

Darielle wrote:It doesn't leave you at 15% health if you are taken from >15-0 by the killing blow.
If the special brought you to 2% health, and the following melee killed you, you'd definitely still be at 2% health.

The Vengeance cap and the flagging of abilities to not grant Vengeance should make it harder to abuse using this to play Vengeance. Maybe not impossible, but definitely not the same as now where you could use it to just cheese Decap to the face with zero cd's.


If you're at 2% health, take a hit that would kill you, have it fully absorbed, stay at 2%, do nothing, and proceed to die anyway, you and your healers fail hilariously badly at Warcraft, and might consider taking up an easier hobby, like perhaps learning to put on pants, or tying your own shoes. Also, you desperately need the overpowered proc and should not be considering the dps cloak under any circumstances. Seriously, if that's the strongest argument you have, you might want to rethink your position. The point here is that oldschool AD brought you down to 15% after a screwup (or intentional use), and required some kind of reaction (from you or a healer) in order to bring the fight back under control. The niche case of being below 15% health, getting saved from death, and getting healed to 15% was and is meaningless, because in any case you are still in a position where an immediate emergency intervention is required. The proc, as written, will leave you at 100% health after absorbing a hit for more than 100% of your health. That's pretty goddamned strong. Lag out and miss something important? Saved. Brain fart? Saved. Cat unplugged your keyboard? Saved.

As far as the second point goes: The additional survivability can be converted into DPS through gearing, in addition to any microadjustments made in play. And, while you might not be able to get stupid-vengeance from cheesing abilities, you'll still (as you granted), be able to leverage it into moderate vengeance gains in a lot of situations.

The proc, as written, is so overpowered that I sincerely doubt it can be allowed to go live in it's current state.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Meloree » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:11 pm

Sagara wrote:
Meloree wrote:To be fair, Dr. T, I'm pretty sure it was a compliment.


For the record, it half was, and it half was a kick in those that think spouting theck's numbers around without thinking makes them sound smart.


For the record, I was really really hoping that someone was going to pity a fool.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:25 pm

*dawning realisation*

Oh.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:36 pm

If you're at 2% health, take a hit that would kill you, have it fully absorbed, stay at 2%, do nothing, and proceed to die anyway, you and your healers fail hilariously badly at Warcraft, and might consider taking up an easier hobby, like perhaps learning to put on pants, or tying your own shoes. Also, you desperately need the overpowered proc and should not be considering the dps cloak under any circumstances. Seriously, if that's the strongest argument you have, you might want to rethink your position. The point here is that oldschool AD brought you down to 15% after a screwup (or intentional use), and required some kind of reaction (from you or a healer) in order to bring the fight back under control.


You're misunderstanding.

My point is that this proc doesn't remove the need for healer reaction to bring the fight back under control. The instance of mechanic that literally take you from full health to 0 is relatively rare - sure, it would trigger on taking a Ji-Kun Rake to the face if you forgot ShOR after 2+ stacks, or take a Decap to the face, or what not, but even most burst mechanics don't take you from 100-0 in one clean stroke. Any major damage mechanic that ticks, by nature (which is really a lot of them nowadays since Blizzard has been substituting 1-hit Breaths for 3-4 tick Breaths) will NOT leave you at 100% health.

That doesn't make the proc useless, but it's exaggering its power significantly to suggest that it just has you at full health, or that the situations where you won't still need healer interaction are niche. At the end of the day, if the proc has actually procced, it's already been incredibly useful because it just saved you a death regardless of where your health is at.

I'd find that Cat unplugging your keyboard is a BIT more niche or Lagging out is a also more niche. Depending on the Cat of course.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby theckhd » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:44 pm

Focusing on the exacts is probably over-thinking it, to be honest. It's still a stupidly overpowered proc.

Heroic progression (and progression in general, to be honest) is all about minimizing mistakes. You hone execution until the entire raid makes few enough mistakes that the boss dies.

I have certainly caused a number of wipes this tier, and more near-wipes, by making a mistake and dying. I'm pretty skeptical of the tanks that claim they never make mistakes and never die. I suspect they're either over-exaggerating their skill or have very selective memories. Or they're clearing the content 3 months later than everyone else with a lot of extra gear acting as a crutch.

This proc lets you make one mistake per minute without penalty. It's the quintessential "do-over" button that doesn't cost your raid a wipe, time, etc. It's rare that someone wasn't already reacting to save me from a bad situation; this proc will generally buy them the extra second it takes to get off that clutch Swiftmend, Greater Heal, or LoH that would have arrived half a second too late.

If you can honestly look over your raid logs and determine that your death has never caused a wipe, and that you have to carry your bad raid DPS to meet berserk timers, then by all means skip the tank cloak effect. I suspect the truth of the matter is that this is a vanishingly small percentage of tanks, and mostly 10-man players that are only clearing relevant bosses 2- to 3- months behind the curve. The rest are just delusional.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Meloree » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:46 pm

Yeah, I miswrote what I was trying to say there. Whoops.

The point, though: this proc is more powerful than oldschool AD's overpowered proc. The situations in which the proc is *less* useful are always meaningless. The situations in which it's *more* useful aren't always. Plus it has half the cooldown.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Meloree » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:51 pm

theckhd wrote:If you can honestly look over your raid logs and determine that your death has never caused a wipe, and that you have to carry your bad raid DPS to meet berserk timers, then by all means skip the tank cloak effect.


I still suspect that for a given level of non-squishiness, the tank cloak is worth more (or at least similar) net DPS than the DPS cloak. Or possibly you're tanking really trivial content, I suppose. I suspect the nature of the proc allows you to give away enough other stats safely to overwhelm the value of the DPS-cloak proc.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:09 pm

I would still suspect at least one fight where damage dealers who can use the tanking cloaks to trivialise certain mechanics and do more dps will come into play.
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