Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:46 am

WUT?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:46 am

Well, technically, it's the natural anal-retentiveness and obsessive need not to be wrong of mankind thatis to blade. Theck is nothing but the tool people use to prove they are NOT wrong.

What this game needs right now is a healthy dose of Chillthefucknow.

EDIT: he means that understanding the game brings us closer to certainty of the One True Way, and damages Blizz's efforts to let us play the way we want.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:52 am

Sagara wrote:EDIT: he means that understanding the game brings us closer to certainty of the One True Way, and damages Blizz's efforts to let us play the way we want.


Yep.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:21 am

The only solution is to make talents and abilities and stats unsimmable and encase mechanics in an impenetrable black box. Just like classic!
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:25 am

Even in classic people were able to determinate abilities coefficients and sim them. There was an addon (called Dr.Damage iirc) which would predict (quite well) the approximate amount for which a spell or attack would hit.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:55 am

Heroic Mode requires the squeeze everything out of your spec and the most efficient way to do it.

There cannot be "play as you want" as long as that part of the game exists. The genie is out of the bottle and people will flock towards the most efficient way of playing even for parts of the game that do not require it.

I know an early criticism about the SW MMO was that parts of it were inscrutable (like logs, i believe), and people complained about it. I didnt follow that game enough to learn whether they changed that or not.

Theck is not something bad for the game. What Theck does keeps the developers in check. Kinda like Prometheus giving mankind the gift of fire.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:03 am

Klaudandus wrote:Heroic Mode requires the squeeze everything out of your spec and the most efficient way to do it.

There cannot be "play as you want" as long as that part of the game exists. The genie is out of the bottle and people will flock towards the most efficient way of playing even for parts of the game that do not require it.

I know an early criticism about the SW MMO was that parts of it were inscrutable (like logs, i believe), and people complained about it. I didnt follow that game enough to learn whether they changed that or not.

Theck is not something bad for the game. What Theck does keeps the developers in check. Kinda like Prometheus giving mankind the gift of fire.


Why so serious?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:25 am

WUT? I'm not the one saying that Theck is bad for the game
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:29 am

This IS Flex. Tongue-in-cheeck is the stark minimum.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:32 am

Sagara wrote:This IS Flex. Tongue-in-cheeck is the stark minimum.


Yep.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:42 am

Sorry, you guys are right.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenris » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:11 pm

All the character profile site keep going down,so i could as well not place anything here
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:13 pm

Well, I'm kind of fucked, unless I can get the other cloak... since I went with Xuen's cloak originally.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:13 pm

so 500ish haste is worth not having a cheat death on a 60 second cooldown to you?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenris » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:18 pm

Flex wrote:so 500ish haste is worth not having a cheat death on a 60 second cooldown to you?

No,but i was just checking for other opinions :D
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:30 pm

Fenris wrote:http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/102249-gong-lu-strength-of-xuen

http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/102250-qian- ... -of-niuzao

So...Bad stats and tank proc or good stat and dps proc?


DPS proc that is generally useful vs tank proc that should never go off, is how I'm looking at it. I can count on my digits the number of times we wiped on heroic progression because I died first.

If it turns out there's some mechanic you can cheese with a pocket Cheat Death maybe there'll be more things to consider, but the things about procs like these is they're like really fancy gold plated insurance policies. Unless something goes terribly wrong, you won't ever make use of them. In which case, is it worth the opportunity cost?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Paxen » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:34 pm

I don't think Theck is bad for the game in any way (quite the opposite!). I just think that stats that have no purpose other than minmaxing is a waste of space in today's environment. The "stack the right stat for best performance"-model is outdated. Internet analysis destroyed any real skill in the area beyond Library Use (CoC reference!) years ago - somebody gets to do the hard but interesting work, and the majority then just copies their notes. If they make the results vary based on other stats and bosses and such, somebody writes a sim, and the majority runs that. If it's so complex that it's hard to copy other players notes, it's complex enough that the majority can't make any informed decisions on their own.

It's fun to read Theck's work, and check out EJ for my newest class/spec, but while playing? Gear might as well just have an "Awesomeness" stat for all I care. The only function is to enable the gear team to create subpar items, so players can feel awesome when they disenchant "bad" pieces.

The talent overhaul was along these lines - the old trees in the end came down to looking up the "right spec" online and plug that in. The new ones change the way your character plays, or give you options to tune it for the fight you're facing. Reforging gear as often as you change talents may not be viable (although it gives HC guilds yet another thing to be hardcore about :P), but I'd vastly prefer a system where stats was more about playstyle than efficiency.

Tankadin stats are in this place now. It just happens that one of the playstyles (avoidance!) sucks.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:03 pm

Slippery Slope?...

New item on the PTR suggests that Blizz might sell XP boosts via the Blizzard store. 100% XP boost, duration unknown...

Also new pally tier. Damn, you guys have wings on your heads!
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:11 pm

Flex wrote:so 500ish haste is worth not having a cheat death on a 60 second cooldown to you?


I'd not mind having the cheat death thing -- but I selected Xuen before knowing their plans for the cloak in 5.4 =/
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:11 pm

I'd not be surprised if you can turn the epic cloak in and pick a new one. Well else, pay 10k gold :P

Honestly the cheat death proc looks just TOO STRONG to give up.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:15 pm

oh.. nvm, you can buy the tanking cloak for 7K gold...
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby melisandyr » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:18 pm

I like the options around the cloak. I think it's a very valid point that the healing model at the moment means that a lot of Guilds won't have experienced tank deaths on a too regular basis. And the juicy haste stat on the Tiger cloak makes it very tempting.

However, I do love the Ox cloak for its tanky proc. It is absolutely an insurance policy, but as a tank I like to bring as much insurance and surety as possible when I join a raid. I like the fact it's a safety net, and will stop me dropping dead when things go wrong. Perhaps this xpac we've been focussed on doing damage too much, but I see it as a sideline to my main purpose in the raid - to stay alive.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:23 pm

Big problem there is, doesnt matter how fun something is, people at normal+ raiding will not do what's fun but what's more efficient.
Doesn't matter if dodging gives you 2000% speed and makes your character dance a rock song if guaranteed mitigation through haste is better for survival and raid dps.


Whether people will do what's more efficient doesn't matter, as long as everything is fun, whatever is more efficient will also be fun.

Haste is fun. If the worst thing we can say about stats is that we have to choose between the fun that is Haste and the fun that is Avoidance, we'd be in a pretty amazing spot.

On a side note regarding cloaks:
The door is open now for lots of mechanics cheesing by damage dealers using the tank cloak proc. Can you imagine if you could give the entire raid the tank cloak during Will progression, or on Lei Shen-H?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:38 pm

My thoughts too Dari, another reason for which I don't see that cloak making it to live.
Or alternatively, having it capped to a % of the player's HP so you can't use it to leapfrog stuff you shouldn't leapfrog.


Second thing, I wonder if you can upgrade the legendary cloak. /sad of losing 8 ilvls :P
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:42 pm

Darielle wrote:On a side note regarding cloaks:
The door is open now for lots of mechanics cheesing by damage dealers using the tank cloak proc. Can you imagine if you could give the entire raid the tank cloak during Will progression, or on Lei Shen-H?


Don't they have lots of behind the scenes things where they can make it so it only works for tank specs?
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