Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:23 am

A thought: Right now, in 5.3, it's Heroic Scenarios and the Barrens gear that occupy the "ilevel in between LFR and Normal" slot. What's gonna happen in 5.4 if Flexible Raid is meant to sit there?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:34 am

Probably will have equivalent ilvl to "alternative to raid stuff". So you can either gear through Flexibles or through solo content.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:00 am

What I don't like about the "Flex" replaces "Normal" idea is that it means everyone's going to expect a raid spot, even if you deem they're not "worthy". I don't want lesser content just to accommodate people who can't figure out how to play their class. This is why I don't see Flex replacing normal mode. I hope Flex remains family friendly and nothing more.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:03 am

As a side note... I barely keep up with my gear list with LFR/normal/heroic. Fuck Flex. Think I'll stick to Normal and Heroic. And dear god I don't want to see Thunderforged again either.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby bldavis » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:32 am

honestly i hope they have shared lockouts between /flex, normal and heroic on a toon by toon basis
that way you can have your normal 10 man, your alt flex, and your solo queue LFR

LFR can still be hey lets get easy valor and a chance at an upgrade for that one slot that still hasnt dropped in normal/heroic

i think this way you dont feel like it is mandatory to raid 4 times each week (toc flashbacks anyone?)
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby benebarba » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:35 am

To be honest, as someone who will very possibly end up doing some flex-modes and hasn't raided in a while... I actually think I'd have preferred if it was the same ilvl as LFR but tuned to be a bit more of a challenge for an organized group. I really don't see why there's a need for another gear level if the goal is basically to make up for what LFR didn't deliver on: to provide good introductory raiding experience.

You'd basically get up to 4 chances at the same loot tables per week. Assuming your LFR runs weren't nearly full guild runs, I'd assume the flex experience would be more fun and that combined with the extra chance at the same loot would be a sufficient carrot to make people want to do it. Or have we totally abandoned the idea that folks might actually do things for fun?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby bldavis » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:42 am

just thought of another perk
when you get to a sticking point you can switch down to flex from normal and finish the rest of the instance
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Invisusira » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:49 am

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby bldavis » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:55 am

they spelled LFR wrong....
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:01 am

bldavis wrote:just thought of another perk
when you get to a sticking point you can switch down to flex from normal and finish the rest of the instance

Nope. As it says in the announcement, they're seperate lockouts.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby benebarba » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:09 am

soo... srs bzns time: does this mean I have to turn off my patch 5.4 speculation generator?

:(
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Qeeze » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:36 am

lythac wrote:My main concern is the quality of players in LFR is going to take a complete nosedive. Normal raiders who raid Normal and LFR will instead raid Normal and Flex.

For 25 man guilds I wonder if their 10 man alt runs will be replaced by Flex runs instead.


Without a doubt LFR will suffer the most when /flex goes in. I think that's Blizzards intent to be honest. In many ways this will make Open Raid and yes /2, the defacto tools guilds use to insure raids happen. Flex raids will allow guilds to learn fights faster and develop effective strategies for normal and heroic. The ability to bring in players with more experience to help groups beat fights is a good thing for the game.

Blizzard has said repeatedly they are going to make changes to server population imbalances and this is probably the first step. Cross realm technology is here to stay, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Cross Realm Guilds at some point. If the valor cap remains the same, LFR will become pointless since you'll get your VP's and higher Itl gear from Flex raiding. More importantly there will finally be some accountability for bad players.

This is after all a social game. My real ID list is fairly long, and my friends have friends to btw, so I expect my list is going to get used a lot more for this. LFR will still be available for the socially inept who no one likes playing with anyways. Run LFR now days and you regularly see geared players using the bosses as glorified target dummies. Ninja pulls, no pull countdowns, and some incredibly bad tanking, dps, & healing, going on at times. Chronic afk & DC'ers, tunnelers, guys trying to play WoW on shitty connections who then type "Lag" as to why they suck. The 5 to 10 players who actually do the things needed to kill bosses will never set foot in LFR once Flex goes live, and that alone will kill off LFR.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:21 am

bldavis wrote:i think this way you dont feel like it is mandatory to raid 4 times each week (toc flashbacks anyone?)


I think people who bring up this argument are forgetting that back then there were different loot tables for 10s and 25s, so to get some of your BiS gear you *had* to do both. This isn't the case anymore -- shared loot tables with different iLvls pretty much kills that entire argument, and the need to "raid below your level."

Flex doesn't affect heroic raiders at all. It gives normal social guilds an additional option. It'll impact LFR a lot, but I'm really not sure how much. In my guild we have plenty of 502 alts, and people solo queue LFR at all hours of the day. The introduction of Flex isn't going to magically cause the entire guild to log on alts at the same time to run a Flex raid -- people run alts during off hours, and I think LFR will continue to service people who 1) don't have raiding guilds, and 2) don't have 10+ friends online at the same time to Flex.

High pop servers might pug even more, but depending on the ilvl difference betweel LFR and Flex and your particular realm's peculiarities, queuing LFR may still be the path of least resistance for a nontrivial percentage of the population.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:28 am

I wish they'd called it something other than Flex. It makes me think of Flex here on MT every time. >.<
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby bldavis » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:39 am

same here...and i didnt catch that they were separate lockouts...oh well
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:50 am

Gruck wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:If it meant I could finish the idiot collection quest RIGHT THE FUCK now, I would be all over that.
So true!



Nice one Gruck, nice one.. :lol:
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:52 am

Sagara wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:If this goes well it would be interesting if they abolish established raid sizes entirely next expansion. Balancing becomes nontrivial, and I don't even want to think about the calculus raid leaders will have to do. "Okay if we bring +1 healer boss HP goes up too much so we need +1 dps, but then we can't hit benchmarks so we need to drop one person, but then we have to take RHPS into account ..."


I'm guessing this is why they didn't simply apply Flex to Normal/Heroic modes. They're gonna have enough headaches to nurse already...


Still could head down that path. It might be the ultimate solution. 10-25, your choice.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:54 am

halabar wrote:Still could head down that path. It might be the ultimate solution. 10-25, your choice.


I'm hoping so. It would be nice to be able to raid without a "bench."
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:56 am

Andurin wrote:
Passionario wrote:If it can scale from 10 to 25, why not 5 to 40?


I think you`ll be stuck with raid mechanics that are really hard then. 10 to 25 man have one thing in common: 2 tank boss mechanics. Blowing it up to 40 shouldnt be a problem, but if you scale it down to 5, they would have to completely skip some mechanics, not sure if that would work. But I wouldnt mind 5 to 40 man raids tbh (since we have problems getting 10 people already).


40 has some problems with encounter design. Imagine 40 people it Tortos's room. They would have to adjust raid design to allow for 40 again.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:02 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Have to wonder if this will cause even more attrition to the 25 man raiding format. This could bleed off what remains of casual 25 man raid guilds into the new, more accessible difficulty, so that 25 man winds up really being the domain of just high end heroic raiders. Mind you, it could have a similar effect on casual 10 man guilds, but 25 man groups are already harder to maintain.

Not saying this is an automatic negative, just pondering.

On the other hand, if this means that normal modes as easy as Dragon Soul was are dead and buried, it's probably a good thing for raiders. And hey, the last two tiers have already killed off the expectation of progress that casual raid guilds had built up during WotLK and Cataclysm (witness the number that got stuck at Garalon, and in first wing ToT), so those players may be more willing to accept that this new tier is aimed at them and they're not expected to push through normal mode too.


Re: Four difficulty modes, I'm inclined to say that LFR hardly counts, since it's a quick and dirty faceroll with an automatically generated group, something to do to fill gaps.

LFR is for non-raiders to see the content and also to help people gear up. Flex raid is for casual groups and pugs, the "everyone who wants to raid can get a chance" mode. Normal and Heroic are for dedicated raiders - and I do think Normal still serves a purpose.


Based on a limited survey in my casual raid group last night, flex will almost certainly replace our LFR night. If we actually clear current content before 5.4 drops (not a certainty) we might do LFR one night, flex the next for a couple weeks to gear up, and then do Flex/Normal on those two nights.

But the RL is LOVING the idea of being able to bring the 20-24 that are on and ready, and not having to pug.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:06 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
halabar wrote:Still could head down that path. It might be the ultimate solution. 10-25, your choice.


I'm hoping so. It would be nice to be able to raid without a "bench."

But is it really worth it if the content is less challenging and the gear is lower ilevel? I don't feel like it'll be proper prep for heroic modes.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:06 am

Qeeze wrote:
lythac wrote:My main concern is the quality of players in LFR is going to take a complete nosedive. Normal raiders who raid Normal and LFR will instead raid Normal and Flex.

For 25 man guilds I wonder if their 10 man alt runs will be replaced by Flex runs instead.


Without a doubt LFR will suffer the most when /flex goes in. I think that's Blizzards intent to be honest. In many ways this will make Open Raid and yes /2, the defacto tools guilds use to insure raids happen. Flex raids will allow guilds to learn fights faster and develop effective strategies for normal and heroic. The ability to bring in players with more experience to help groups beat fights is a good thing for the game.



Pugging will suffer too. More groups will be doing Flex with their mixed groups, and not trolling trade for fill in spots.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:09 am

Nikachelle wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:
halabar wrote:Still could head down that path. It might be the ultimate solution. 10-25, your choice.


I'm hoping so. It would be nice to be able to raid without a "bench."

But is it really worth it if the content is less challenging and the gear is lower ilevel? I don't feel like it'll be proper prep for heroic modes.


You're looking at it wrong.

Consider in 6.0 that there is no more 10 or 25 normals, there's only Flex normal difficulty. No bench, and no canceling if only 20 show up, and no complaining here about some jackass you needed for your 25th spot.

I imagine heroics would stay at 10 and 25.

They are testing the waters here. If the scaling goes well, my money is on Normals getting this treatment in 6.0.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Flex » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:11 am

so I was right?
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