Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:33 am

Dion wrote:
Barathorn wrote:If the model was working fine with everyone able to see content in WotLK why the hell was it changed at the start of MOP? It makes no sense to me.

It was because of Theck. He ran equation to compare difficulties between 25man and 10man and got result stating that 1=2. Also, 10man raider got penis envy of 25 man shiny loot. Now that you ponder do I joke or not, pay no attention to changes in your lawn. It’s now free dog park and co..tauren pasture. Hope you like poo! You can call it modern version of door bell prank, old man.


I don't even? What?

I don't know any 10 man raider who even cared about 25 man because we were so fecking GLAD to have 10 man raids. This may have changed since I left during Cataclysm I appreciate.

Changes to the lawn? Don't start that shit because you really don't want to go down that path. Haven't you got homework to do or something?

:wink:

Old man.

That is fine, at least your post wasn't a total waste of time.

So looking forward to Flex right?

:mrgreen:
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:44 am

Meh, Flex has been a *very* hot topic around these parts. You probably noticed there's a whole thread full of, to put it mildly, heated exchange of ideas.

Considering you advancing age and failing attention span, it wouldn't surprise me you skipped right over that and never realized what you were stepping into. Add to that you... cavalier? approach. Yeah, it was fun to watch :-p

Not really in there to excuse one or the other, merely trying to, ya know, make a bit clearer what the hell just happened, from an outside PoV.

P.S.: filthy casual :-p
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:50 am

As a new casual, I'm actually looking forward for flex. Just hope I can find a group of people willing to bring me through as well *pokes fellow alliance EU maintankadiners*
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Ironshield » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:52 am

Barathorn wrote:
Ironshield wrote:Also flex on progression content, and normal is progression for many of us, will DEFINITELY result in a less fun experience.


How? This is obviously what I can't understand so an explanation would be very helpful?

Flex in progression will lead to min / maxing numbers. There is already a problem (and Blizz clearly have an issue with it - hence spreading around buffs / heroism etc) of min / maxing composition and getting sat because you play x class/spec when y has the toolbox for fight 5 is bad enough, getting sat for fight 5 because some EJ theorycrafted that the optimal number of people vs DPS requirement / whatever will be unfun.
Barathorn wrote:I also don't understand what you mean by F*** that noise?

You were advocating removing the level of difficulty that I play and enjoy. Naturally I object to that proposal :) but I'm feeling a bit poorly and not quite as eloquent as I could be.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:08 am

Ironshield wrote:
Barathorn wrote:I also don't understand what you mean by F*** that noise?

You were advocating removing the level of difficulty that I play and enjoy. Naturally I object to that proposal :) but I'm feeling a bit poorly and not quite as eloquent as I could be.


Ah I hope you feel better. I was just trying to determine if I should call you an Arsehat or not.

Remove it I say, Remove it all!!!

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHA!
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Teranoid » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:12 am

Barathorn wrote:
Teranoid wrote:
Barathorn wrote:
As Joannadark once said, "if everyone is a hero, then no-one is".

Read into that what you will.


Bbbut muh special snowflake syndrome!

It's like people who do nothing but mope around in life starting every sentence with "back in my day."


Oh if we are going down that road. Pay my subscription and all my bills I incur in life and then you can tell me what opinion I can have.

Until then you don't have to like what I say and if you don't want to read it put me on ignore. Otherwise you can eat my shorts.

Thanks.


Doesn't bother me in the slightest since this is part of your typical "show up every six months and complain about everything and then vanish" posting routine.

Also as a side note you can't even ignore mods so that part is pretty much impossible.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Amirya » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:19 am

Worldie wrote:As a new casual, I'm actually looking forward for flex. Just hope I can find a group of people willing to bring me through as well *pokes fellow alliance EU maintankadiners*

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:25 am

Teranoid wrote:Doesn't bother me in the slightest since this is part of your typical "show up every six months and complain about everything and then vanish" posting routine.


I come here everyday and did so even when I wasn't playing. I just don't feel the need to post stuff that could in any way have people bicker over unless it actually affects me and I am genuinely interested in the answers. As for posting and complaining once every six months I don't think that is generally my style, you must have me confused with someone.

I don't know what I did to rattle your cage so good day to you.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Winkle » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:30 am

Barathorn wrote:Let me be more clear about my opinion for everyone. Adding lots of different levels doesn't actually make the game better, it drives player skill through the floor rather than through the ceiling. This results in a lesser playing experiance for everyone.


I'm not sure i agree with this. Is there any evidence to even suggest this hypothesis is true?

Remember its a game after all, if people fail, maybe they just give up?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Newsom » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:34 am

daishan wrote:I started raiding towards the end of WotLK, 10/25 on separate lockouts worked ok at the time but required most raiders to do far too much raiding in a size they liked less.

Near the end of ICC we talked about trying to move up to 25 man, non of the guild really wanted to be part of a 25 man but we also didn't like the 2nd class raider status 10 man had.

For me and my guild combining 10 and 25 is one of the best decisions Blizz ever made, it's allowed us to stay a small guild while still raiding some of the most challenging content.


And now we're almost back to 10 man being lower class of raiding again. I would argue it's just as hard to organize a 10 man guild (individual attendance needs to be a lot higher and setups matter a whole lot more versus needing to manage more people) but with Thunderforged/Warforged we're not just seing less loot, we're getting it at 6 item levels lower most of the time.

I think it's starting to become a problem, but Blizzard has made it no secret they'd rather people do 25s than 10s. The fact more people seem to prefer the intimacy of 10 man means jack shit.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:39 am

The Flex/LFR thread is over there: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33506&start=450
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:43 am

Winkle wrote:
Barathorn wrote:Let me be more clear about my opinion for everyone. Adding lots of different levels doesn't actually make the game better, it drives player skill through the floor rather than through the ceiling. This results in a lesser playing experiance for everyone.


I'm not sure i agree with this. Is there any evidence to even suggest this hypothesis is true?

Remember its a game after all, if people fail, maybe they just give up?


I don't know, its the opinion I have on the matter based purely from my time here and in game so allow me to elaborate.

What people don't tend to factor in is that 'elite' players for want of a better term can get just as frustrated as 'average' players about availability of core 'product' and there are a hell of a lot less of them because not every one is good at gaming.

Every 'elite' player that leaves because of a change in levels of difficulty of core product leaves a 'bigger' skill hole than if an 'average' player quits I would suggest?

Therefore for every frustrated 'elite' player that leaves a hole appears in 'skill' thus driving the level down.

Compare WoW to EVE, where skill actually keeps you alive. You need skill to play EVE competitively but because their player base is primarily 'hardcore' players, one person leaving due to frustration about a change doesn't make as big a hole in the overall playerbase.

I am not sure if that makes sense, but I think it is what I 'feel'.

Or it could just be that people give up.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:51 am

Barathorn wrote:
Thankfully Thel's, Econ, Kysen and to a certain extent yourself Klaus explained what I had asked about but really all a few people wanted to do was jump down my throat for daring to have a different opinion simply because I said I was happy and yet sad about flex raiding?


The whole thing started because you said
What ever happened to being challenged and being rewarded for execution rather than amount of time thrown at the game?

I kinda like that I can raid with my friends but also hate the fact that as someone who use to heroic raid but who has no time to commit to it now that this is my option.

Easy fecking mode.


Only after people jumped on you, you decided to ask what the deal was about.

From the beginning, it was explained that Flex is supposed to bridge between LFR and Normal. Flex is harder than LFR, needs a more organized setting, but allows to have a variable number of raiders rather than the fixed number of people needed for Normals and Heroics, and is supposed to be easier than Normal... or rather, supposed to be comparable to how 10N were in Wrath in terms of difficulty.

Instead you came in pretty much akin to "I dont know what frappuccinos are, but I it sucks that they're available. Easy fucking mode compared to those that drink straight black coffee."
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:54 am

Newsom wrote:
daishan wrote:I started raiding towards the end of WotLK, 10/25 on separate lockouts worked ok at the time but required most raiders to do far too much raiding in a size they liked less.

Near the end of ICC we talked about trying to move up to 25 man, non of the guild really wanted to be part of a 25 man but we also didn't like the 2nd class raider status 10 man had.

For me and my guild combining 10 and 25 is one of the best decisions Blizz ever made, it's allowed us to stay a small guild while still raiding some of the most challenging content.


And now we're almost back to 10 man being lower class of raiding again. I would argue it's just as hard to organize a 10 man guild (individual attendance needs to be a lot higher and setups matter a whole lot more versus needing to manage more people) but with Thunderforged/Warforged we're not just seing less loot, we're getting it at 6 item levels lower most of the time.

I think it's starting to become a problem, but Blizzard has made it no secret they'd rather people do 25s than 10s. The fact more people seem to prefer the intimacy of 10 man means jack shit.


It's not so much that they want to get rid of 10 man raiding, as they want to have a little more 25 man raiding. At the top end, 25 man raiding is more common than 10 man, but below that, there's a whole lot of 10 man raiding and a lot less 25 man raiding. It's a hindrance to people that want to raid 25 man, because there are barely any 25 man raids around.

However, I do think there are more elegant solutions than the Thunderforged option. For one, they could make it so that a lot more people could actually raid 25 man. A lot of people I know raid 10 man exclusively because their computers can't handle 25 man. You can't have Particle Density at low during raiding, as half the important stuff is invisible, so you need it on at least Fair. However, that means your computer will try to show all the spells that everyone around you is casting on Fair quality, and unless your computer is up to date on hardware, it's probably going to drop your FPS like a brick.

Allowing players to play 25 man with decent FPS without a top end PC would do a lot more for 25 man raiding than Thunderforged...
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:54 am

Barathorn wrote:What people don't tend to factor in is that 'elite' players for want of a better term can get just as frustrated as 'average' players about availability of core 'product' and there are a hell of a lot less of them because not every one is good at gaming.

Every 'elite' player that leaves because of a change in levels of difficulty of core product leaves a 'bigger' skill hole than if an 'average' player quits I would suggest?


*facedesk* that does sound like elitism, which is what Tera was commenting on.

Heroic raiders have their sandbox, who cares if other lesser players get their own sandbox as well? It's like if Heroic Raiders want to be the only ones that have access to sandboxes, forever.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:00 am

Thels wrote:However, I do think there are more elegant solutions than the Thunderforged option. For one, they could make it so that a lot more people could actually raid 25 man. A lot of people I know raid 10 man exclusively because their computers can't handle 25 man. You can't have Particle Density at low during raiding, as half the important stuff is invisible, so you need it on at least Fair. However, that means your computer will try to show all the spells that everyone around you is casting on Fair quality, and unless your computer is up to date on hardware, it's probably going to drop your FPS like a brick.


That's me. Even on 10 man during Cata I was tanking with 5-20fps depending on the fight/phase. 25 man slaughters my computer.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:04 am

Blizz should be doing much more to help guilds recruit, like making their recruitment forums useful instead of talking about removing realm forums -.-
Ofc easier recruitment would help 10 man raiding as well but I think it would be of greater benefit to 25's as they go through more players.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:11 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Barathorn wrote:What people don't tend to factor in is that 'elite' players for want of a better term can get just as frustrated as 'average' players about availability of core 'product' and there are a hell of a lot less of them because not every one is good at gaming.

Every 'elite' player that leaves because of a change in levels of difficulty of core product leaves a 'bigger' skill hole than if an 'average' player quits I would suggest?


*facedesk* that does sound like elitism, which is what Tera was commenting on.

Heroic raiders have their sandbox, who cares if other lesser players get their own sandbox as well? It's like if Heroic Raiders want to be the only ones that have access to sandboxes, forever.


Oh please it is hardly elitist to a/ ask where the challenge lies for people of a certain skill level b/ try to work out why 4 skill levels are needed when 3 would clearly suffice [point taken from Ironskin about what progression actually entails as I can understand that now], c/ frustration affecting all levels of play or d/ wanting to talk about the game and its direction and what is happening rather than trying to randomly score points on an internet forum?

FWIW WOW has no sandboxes, if you want a sandbox of your very own you need to play a sandbox game. WOW isn't that game. This is not about what skill level you possess, it is about fitting square pegs into round holes.

I would have thought anyone who has actually read anything that I posted over the last 6 years would know I am about as far from elite as you can get. That doesn't mean I don't understand points from both sides of the fence.

A lot of people seem to have 'soapboxes' as their mount of choice here now rather than trusty 'rational conversation'. It is that I take offense to.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:18 am

Ironshield wrote:Flex in progression will lead to min / maxing numbers. There is already a problem (and Blizz clearly have an issue with it - hence spreading around buffs / heroism etc) of min / maxing composition and getting sat because you play x class/spec when y has the toolbox for fight 5 is bad enough, getting sat for fight 5 because some EJ theorycrafted that the optimal number of people vs DPS requirement / whatever will be unfun.


I'm quite confident that the people at which Flex is aimed don't even know what EJ is ;) At least the vast majority of the,
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:25 am

Barathorn wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:
Barathorn wrote:What people don't tend to factor in is that 'elite' players for want of a better term can get just as frustrated as 'average' players about availability of core 'product' and there are a hell of a lot less of them because not every one is good at gaming.

Every 'elite' player that leaves because of a change in levels of difficulty of core product leaves a 'bigger' skill hole than if an 'average' player quits I would suggest?


*facedesk* that does sound like elitism, which is what Tera was commenting on.

Heroic raiders have their sandbox, who cares if other lesser players get their own sandbox as well? It's like if Heroic Raiders want to be the only ones that have access to sandboxes, forever.


Oh please it is hardly elitist to a/ ask where the challenge lies for people of a certain skill level b/ try to work out why 4 skill levels are needed when 3 would clearly suffice [point taken from Ironskin about what progression actually entails as I can understand that now], c/ frustration affecting all levels of play or d/ wanting to talk about the game and its direction and what is happening rather than trying to randomly score points on an internet forum?

FWIW WOW has no sandboxes, if you want a sandbox of your very own you need to play a sandbox game. WOW isn't that game. This is not about what skill level you possess, it is about fitting square pegs into round holes.

I would have thought anyone who has actually read anything that I posted over the last 6 years would know I am about as far from elite as you can get. That doesn't mean I don't understand points from both sides of the fence.

A lot of people seem to have 'soapboxes' as their mount of choice here now rather than trusty 'rational conversation'. It is that I take offense to.


I said sandbox as in an actual sandbox rather than a sandbox game, replace sandbox in my paragraph with playground or swingset or toys and you get the idea to what i am talking about.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:11 am

Amirya wrote:
Worldie wrote:As a new casual, I'm actually looking forward for flex. Just hope I can find a group of people willing to bring me through as well *pokes fellow alliance EU maintankadiners*

Do not feed the Flexbreaker.

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:16 am

Worldie wrote:
Ironshield wrote:Flex in progression will lead to min / maxing numbers. There is already a problem (and Blizz clearly have an issue with it - hence spreading around buffs / heroism etc) of min / maxing composition and getting sat because you play x class/spec when y has the toolbox for fight 5 is bad enough, getting sat for fight 5 because some EJ theorycrafted that the optimal number of people vs DPS requirement / whatever will be unfun.


I'm quite confident that the people at which Flex is aimed don't even know what EJ is ;) At least the vast majority of the,


I have to agree with Worldie here. As a guild we are capable of doing normal, gotten 3 new kills in 2 weeks after deciding on extending raid lockouts. But for us Flex is a good benefit because we can bring players who like group content but aren't a fan of the harder normal mode raids compared to LK, those who have a work schedule that lets them join us an hour after our start time, or who have to leave for work an hour before end time. So for us Flex is a tool to let us play with more of the guild and placing serious progression metrics against it seems like a waste.

Barathorn wrote:I think the issue I can't get my head around or convey properly is 'who' these people are for whom LFR is a cakewalk and normal is too difficult.


I'll toss out an example for comparison of normal vs LFR. Tortos has a big AOE that you interrupt or else it deals high damage. On normal letting it go off is a raid wiper, no other outcome from it exists, on progression even letting it go for 1 second (2 ticks) is usually enough to wipe the raid. On LFR you don't have to interrupt it at all, it barely does any damage and what damage it does is basically covered by blanket AOE healing.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Ironshield » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:32 am

Worldie wrote:
Ironshield wrote:Flex in progression will lead to min / maxing numbers. There is already a problem (and Blizz clearly have an issue with it - hence spreading around buffs / heroism etc) of min / maxing composition and getting sat because you play x class/spec when y has the toolbox for fight 5 is bad enough, getting sat for fight 5 because some EJ theorycrafted that the optimal number of people vs DPS requirement / whatever will be unfun.


I'm quite confident that the people at which Flex is aimed don't even know what EJ is ;) At least the vast majority of the,

Indeed and as it stands that sort of min/maxing shouldn't be necessary to beat it, but I was specifically arguing against the tech being used in normal / heroic raids.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:33 am

Ironshield wrote:Indeed and as it stands that sort of min/maxing shouldn't be necessary to beat it, but I was specifically arguing against the tech being used in normal / heroic raids.


oh...which is why it will never be done for "serious raiding."
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Dion » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:35 am

Klaudandus wrote:I said sandbox as in an actual sandbox rather than a sandbox game, replace sandbox in my paragraph with playground or swingset or toys and you get the idea to what i am talking about.

You seem to imply that users of said sandbox, playground or toys are petty, mean and antisocial. You do realize that those things are for kids, not for adults? If there is one group of humans that are social and accept all the different kind of people without blinking and generally get along even when they don’t speak same language, it's the users f said sandboxes, toys and swingset. It even gets easier when they get bigger until they grow up as growing up basically is that they realize that they have been lied their whole life about how to behave as adults ignore their own teachings. (Don’t steal, don’t lie, it’s wrong to hurt a person etc.)
Dion
 
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