Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Qeeze » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:16 am

ghostcrawler wrote:The heirloom weapons that drop from Garrosh are personal loot in Flex, Normal, and Heroic difficulty. The first heirloom weapon that drops for you will be for your current loot spec, but after that you will get one at random.


My bet is that lots of players will run both flex, & a normal/heroic each reset just to get Garrosh's heirloom weapons.

I know I will since I have 7 level 90's
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby econ21 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:31 am

Barathorn wrote:I think the issue I can't get my head around or convey properly is 'who' these people are for whom LFR is a cakewalk and normal is too difficult.


I've got a horrible feeling it's for people like me and my guild. We were 6/12 for almost all of this expansion. Just stirred enough to kill 3 new bosses last week and desperately trying to kill the last 3 before the patch. Our RL has suggested we are better suited to flex, as we don't tend to clear normal until we outgear it. There's a core of players for whom this hurts, as we think we're better than that. But the problem is we haven't had 10 such players who regularly show up each week. We raid once a week, usually with different PUG members making up the numbers (who have to learn tactics, kill old bosses to gear up etc).

I think the big thing behind all this is the massive decline in the number of raiding guilds. There was a thread on MMO champion about this. On most servers since ICC, there are about 1/10 of the number of raiding guilds. People have just stopped doing normals. Half raiders do heroics. The normal only raider cohort has shrunk terribly. Perhaps due to difficulty, perhaps due to LFR. But it's clear LFR is not a perfect substitute for these lost raiders as there is little to no challenge in it (unless you are tanking it imo). It's not just the damage scaling, it's the absence of key mechanics on many encounters - for example, I just did Dark Animus on normal and it was hard to recognise the fight from LFR, it was so different.

I don't particularly like the introduction of Flex (a 3rd raid lockout I might have to try to run each week) but I do understand where it's coming from.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:07 am

Barathorn wrote:I guess the real question is this because a/ normal got harder or b/ player skill got worse? If its (a) then I can understand and don't feel as sad. If it is (b) then I remain sad while being happy that flexibility is being offered.


GC said they made 10N harder vis a vis 10N of Wrath since there is no gear difference between 10N and 25N now.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:09 am

WotLK was relatively easy and was the start of opening up raiding to a larger portion of the player base. Then, significantly, Dragon Soul was very easy, giving a lot of the lower end an expectation of progress they'd never had before. Then they went back to a higher difficulty baseline in MoP, and you now regularly see people (here on Maintankadin included) talking about their guild being stuck on bosses like Garalon, Horridon, and others, making slow progress and often not clearing the raid before the next one comes out.

(Context: My own experience over the years in WoW has left me feeling that downing roughly one new boss every week or two is a decent progress rate and shows you're playing at the right content level.)

Blizzard allowed raiding to become a large part of why people play for a portion of the player base that had originally not been able to access raids, and they've spent the last few years trying to work out how to cater to that group. Flex is the solution they've come up with for now. I can't disagree with their reasoning there.

Taken on its own, if I was still raiding I'd probably just be running Normal and paying no attention to Flex, because that's the level I have been raiding at, but others would gain from it. The only real issue is that of rewards like loot, which change the consideration of "would I need to run it", and that's why we've got that other big topic arguing back and forth on the subject.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:39 am

There's quite a big step between LFR and Normal. Normal now is certainly quite a step up from WotLK 10 man normals.

LFR is something you can queue up by your own, no real organization needed, filled with complete randoms, where you come to see how the bosses look like, and get some free gear.

Normal is actually quite challenging, requires proper organization and execution, and requires the players to know their class (though they don't have to play at peek performance). It also requires a more or less steady group of either 10 or 25 players.

Flex is supposed to be in between there. It won't be filled with total randoms, and the bosses don't fall over by themselves. You do need to execute the fights somewhat properly, though it won't be as tight as on Normal. You also don't need to have a fixed group of 10 players. You can bring 12 players on one day, and 20 on the other. If you're in a Flex guild, you probably want a bigger roster than the default 10, so that even if a couple of players don't show up, you still have enough players and role coverage to raid Flex.

Flex is also an instance where normal/heroic raiders can go for some more casual content, allowing them to play with guildies and friends that lack the skill/gear required for normal/heroic raiding, without holding back their normal/heroic raiding. It also allows them to complete their meta-achievements without screwing over heroic progression/farming.

I'm personally quite interested in seeing Flex. It appeals a whole lot more to me, than LFR would ever do.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:47 am

Thanks econ, Klaus and Kysen. That gives me all the information I needed without informing me I must be a special snowflake which is definately NOT what I am as anyone who has spoken to me over the last 5 years on this forum can verify. If anything I pretty much was the 'Mr average gamer who raids a bit and does some heroic stuff when able' for TBC and WotLK and 'Mr Average Gamer who runs Heroic Dungeons' for Cataclysm for a while.

To a certain extent I have been in a bubble since dinging 90 but I am deciding on dipping my toe into the water raid wise while the MTG season is slower, hence the questions as I am trying to understand how things changed since halfway through Kittyclysm to where we are today?

If the model was working fine with everyone able to see content in WotLK why the hell was it changed at the start of MOP? It makes no sense to me.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby lythac » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:57 am

I'm wondering if somewhere along the way (MoP) they started balancing 10 man normal around having Bloodlust/Heroism and just didn't tell anyone (or I just can't find it). Was that when Hunters could first bring it?

10 man SoO is almost definitely balanced around having it* (Drums of Rage), possible the other raids have been as well.

* a slightly weaker version
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:08 am

I started raiding towards the end of WotLK, 10/25 on separate lockouts worked ok at the time but required most raiders to do far too much raiding in a size they liked less.

Near the end of ICC we talked about trying to move up to 25 man, non of the guild really wanted to be part of a 25 man but we also didn't like the 2nd class raider status 10 man had.

For me and my guild combining 10 and 25 is one of the best decisions Blizz ever made, it's allowed us to stay a small guild while still raiding some of the most challenging content.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:10 am

Wasn't it the start of cata that both mages and BM hunters got hero?
It's just that BM wasn't really viable in cata.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:12 am

lythac wrote:I'm wondering if somewhere along the way (MoP) they started balancing 10 man normal around having Bloodlust/Heroism and just didn't tell anyone (or I just can't find it). Was that when Hunters could first bring it?

10 man SoO is almost definitely balanced around having it* (Drums of Rage), possible the other raids have been as well.

* a slightly weaker version

10 men is still based on having all (or almost all) buffs.

There's a reason for which all buffs got distributed to 3-4 classes, and hunters can bring pretty much every single buff in game ;)
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:16 am

Barathorn wrote:Thanks econ, Klaus and Kysen. That gives me all the information I needed without informing me I must be a special snowflake.


The problem was how you came across in the first place. Just sayin'
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:16 am

Barathorn wrote:If the model was working fine with everyone able to see content in WotLK why the hell was it changed at the start of MOP? It makes no sense to me.


I wouldn't say the WotLK model was working very well at all, and I'm not just referring to the crap that was T7.

Sure, 10 man raiding was easier than 25 man raiding, which allowed more people to see the content (though still far from everyone). That, however, wasn't the purpose of 10 man raiding. The purpose was to be able to raid without having to be in a big 25 man raiding group.

However, what it came down to was that 10 man raiding was the watered down version of 25 man raiding. Easier fights, lower ilvl gear. It wasn't the true raiding. And when heroics came around, it caused even more problems. 10 man heroic raids were really really tight if you only had access to 10 man gear, but if you had 25 man raiding gear, they were quite a bit easier, and a lot of 25 man guilds farmed 10 man heroic for the extra loot, while the 10 man raiders had to pug 25 man raids to get some decent gear for 10 man heroic raids.

So it came down to 10 man for casuals and 25 man for serious. In Cata/MoP they changed it so that 10 man can be considered serious raiding, and be on the same level as 25 man raiding. LFR was added to show the endgame content to people who weren't capable of raiding, but it did little to create an actual raiding experience, as you're there with 24 strangers with little to no actual cooperation.

This left a hole for the more casual raiders that enjoyed WotLK 10 man normal raiding, which Flex is supposed to fill up.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:52 am

Thanks Thels, that is all I wanted to know.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Dion » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:19 am

Barathorn wrote:If the model was working fine with everyone able to see content in WotLK why the hell was it changed at the start of MOP? It makes no sense to me.

It was because of Theck. He ran equation to compare difficulties between 25man and 10man and got result stating that 1=2. Also, 10man raider got penis envy of 25 man shiny loot. Now that you ponder do I joke or not, pay no attention to changes in your lawn. It’s now free dog park and co..tauren pasture. Hope you like poo! You can call it modern version of door bell prank, old man.

It was changed at the beginning of cata I think. They kept normals like wotlk normals but decided on MoP that Normals should be harder and there should be real progress to be made, as in Cata progress was basicly made in Heroic. I think it was partly on player feedback and partly because it added more content to players.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:28 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Barathorn wrote:Thanks econ, Klaus and Kysen. That gives me all the information I needed without informing me I must be a special snowflake.


The problem was how you came across in the first place. Just sayin'


To be fair after 5 years if you can't read between the lines of the rubbish I post then that isn't my lookout. I thought this was Maintankadin not Mainwussadin.

Just sayin'.

By the number of PM's and stuff I got I am not the only one who needed an explanation after a return to the game and wanted answers or indeed felt the same way I did.

Thankfully Thel's, Econ, Kysen and to a certain extent yourself Klaus explained what I had asked about but really all a few people wanted to do was jump down my throat for daring to have a different opinion simply because I said I was happy and yet sad about flex raiding?

Really? The reaction here made me sadder than anything I have ever felt in WOW.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:33 am

Dion wrote:
Barathorn wrote:If the model was working fine with everyone able to see content in WotLK why the hell was it changed at the start of MOP? It makes no sense to me.

It was because of Theck. He ran equation to compare difficulties between 25man and 10man and got result stating that 1=2. Also, 10man raider got penis envy of 25 man shiny loot. Now that you ponder do I joke or not, pay no attention to changes in your lawn. It’s now free dog park and co..tauren pasture. Hope you like poo! You can call it modern version of door bell prank, old man.


I don't even? What?

I don't know any 10 man raider who even cared about 25 man because we were so fecking GLAD to have 10 man raids. This may have changed since I left during Cataclysm I appreciate.

Changes to the lawn? Don't start that shit because you really don't want to go down that path. Haven't you got homework to do or something?

:wink:

Old man.

That is fine, at least your post wasn't a total waste of time.

So looking forward to Flex right?

:mrgreen:
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:44 am

Meh, Flex has been a *very* hot topic around these parts. You probably noticed there's a whole thread full of, to put it mildly, heated exchange of ideas.

Considering you advancing age and failing attention span, it wouldn't surprise me you skipped right over that and never realized what you were stepping into. Add to that you... cavalier? approach. Yeah, it was fun to watch :-p

Not really in there to excuse one or the other, merely trying to, ya know, make a bit clearer what the hell just happened, from an outside PoV.

P.S.: filthy casual :-p
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:50 am

As a new casual, I'm actually looking forward for flex. Just hope I can find a group of people willing to bring me through as well *pokes fellow alliance EU maintankadiners*
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Ironshield » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:52 am

Barathorn wrote:
Ironshield wrote:Also flex on progression content, and normal is progression for many of us, will DEFINITELY result in a less fun experience.


How? This is obviously what I can't understand so an explanation would be very helpful?

Flex in progression will lead to min / maxing numbers. There is already a problem (and Blizz clearly have an issue with it - hence spreading around buffs / heroism etc) of min / maxing composition and getting sat because you play x class/spec when y has the toolbox for fight 5 is bad enough, getting sat for fight 5 because some EJ theorycrafted that the optimal number of people vs DPS requirement / whatever will be unfun.
Barathorn wrote:I also don't understand what you mean by F*** that noise?

You were advocating removing the level of difficulty that I play and enjoy. Naturally I object to that proposal :) but I'm feeling a bit poorly and not quite as eloquent as I could be.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:08 am

Ironshield wrote:
Barathorn wrote:I also don't understand what you mean by F*** that noise?

You were advocating removing the level of difficulty that I play and enjoy. Naturally I object to that proposal :) but I'm feeling a bit poorly and not quite as eloquent as I could be.


Ah I hope you feel better. I was just trying to determine if I should call you an Arsehat or not.

Remove it I say, Remove it all!!!

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHA!
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Teranoid » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:12 am

Barathorn wrote:
Teranoid wrote:
Barathorn wrote:
As Joannadark once said, "if everyone is a hero, then no-one is".

Read into that what you will.


Bbbut muh special snowflake syndrome!

It's like people who do nothing but mope around in life starting every sentence with "back in my day."


Oh if we are going down that road. Pay my subscription and all my bills I incur in life and then you can tell me what opinion I can have.

Until then you don't have to like what I say and if you don't want to read it put me on ignore. Otherwise you can eat my shorts.

Thanks.


Doesn't bother me in the slightest since this is part of your typical "show up every six months and complain about everything and then vanish" posting routine.

Also as a side note you can't even ignore mods so that part is pretty much impossible.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Amirya » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:19 am

Worldie wrote:As a new casual, I'm actually looking forward for flex. Just hope I can find a group of people willing to bring me through as well *pokes fellow alliance EU maintankadiners*

Do not feed the Flexbreaker.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:25 am

Teranoid wrote:Doesn't bother me in the slightest since this is part of your typical "show up every six months and complain about everything and then vanish" posting routine.


I come here everyday and did so even when I wasn't playing. I just don't feel the need to post stuff that could in any way have people bicker over unless it actually affects me and I am genuinely interested in the answers. As for posting and complaining once every six months I don't think that is generally my style, you must have me confused with someone.

I don't know what I did to rattle your cage so good day to you.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Winkle » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:30 am

Barathorn wrote:Let me be more clear about my opinion for everyone. Adding lots of different levels doesn't actually make the game better, it drives player skill through the floor rather than through the ceiling. This results in a lesser playing experiance for everyone.


I'm not sure i agree with this. Is there any evidence to even suggest this hypothesis is true?

Remember its a game after all, if people fail, maybe they just give up?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Newsom » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:34 am

daishan wrote:I started raiding towards the end of WotLK, 10/25 on separate lockouts worked ok at the time but required most raiders to do far too much raiding in a size they liked less.

Near the end of ICC we talked about trying to move up to 25 man, non of the guild really wanted to be part of a 25 man but we also didn't like the 2nd class raider status 10 man had.

For me and my guild combining 10 and 25 is one of the best decisions Blizz ever made, it's allowed us to stay a small guild while still raiding some of the most challenging content.


And now we're almost back to 10 man being lower class of raiding again. I would argue it's just as hard to organize a 10 man guild (individual attendance needs to be a lot higher and setups matter a whole lot more versus needing to manage more people) but with Thunderforged/Warforged we're not just seing less loot, we're getting it at 6 item levels lower most of the time.

I think it's starting to become a problem, but Blizzard has made it no secret they'd rather people do 25s than 10s. The fact more people seem to prefer the intimacy of 10 man means jack shit.
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