Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:05 am

Let's not turn this thread into the LFR vs Heroic thread, we already have that thread.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Holyblaze » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:43 pm

So...Ive been outta da loop for this patch, but my guildie said that once 5.4 goes live my server will go away and will be merged with 2 other server from our Battle Group.

This true?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:52 pm

Holyblaze wrote:So...Ive been outta da loop for this patch, but my guildie said that once 5.4 goes live my server will go away and will be merged with 2 other server from our Battle Group.

This true?


Not entirely. Virtual Realms pretty much works by making it CRZ across everything, including AH.

The servers are gonna be merged by class, so RP-PVE will only be merged with RP-PVE and so on.

And the virtual merging will not happen until halfway thru 5.4, not upon release of the new patch
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Teranoid » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:33 pm

Barathorn wrote:
As Joannadark once said, "if everyone is a hero, then no-one is".

Read into that what you will.


Bbbut muh special snowflake syndrome!

It's like people who do nothing but mope around in life starting every sentence with "back in my day."
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Holyblaze » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:37 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Holyblaze wrote:So...Ive been outta da loop for this patch, but my guildie said that once 5.4 goes live my server will go away and will be merged with 2 other server from our Battle Group.

This true?


Not entirely. Virtual Realms pretty much works by making it CRZ across everything, including AH.

The servers are gonna be merged by class, so RP-PVE will only be merged with RP-PVE and so on.

And the virtual merging will not happen until halfway thru 5.4, not upon release of the new patch



So my server will exist as its own entity or will this be like a VM enviroment where wer all share the same space that is alotted to our populations.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Holyblaze wrote:So my server will exist as its own entity or will this be like a VM enviroment where wer all share the same space that is alotted to our populations.

It will be like shared zones are now, except that instead of people with a * after their name, the people on your virtual server will have a #. You will be able to trade with them and send mail to them, so that means if you roll an alt on the server you are paired with, you should be able to mail your BoAs to him, and he can join the same guild as your main for the exp benefits and such.

The # is to resolve name issues, so that two toons on the same virtual pair can have the same name.

As far as hardware is concerned, I don't know if the realms have to live on the same physical hardware, but I suspect Bliz has been running virtual servers for a while now.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:32 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Holyblaze wrote:So my server will exist as its own entity or will this be like a VM enviroment where wer all share the same space that is alotted to our populations.

It will be like shared zones are now, except that instead of people with a * after their name, the people on your virtual server will have a #. You will be able to trade with them and send mail to them, so that means if you roll an alt on the server you are paired with, you should be able to mail your BoAs to him, and he can join the same guild as your main for the exp benefits and such.

The # is to resolve name issues, so that two toons on the same virtual pair can have the same name.

As far as hardware is concerned, I don't know if the realms have to live on the same physical hardware, but I suspect Bliz has been running virtual servers for a while now.


Yeah, for this to all work, they had to have been on virtual servers for quite some time. Remember when they were selling the old blade servers? That was probably the last of them.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:43 am

Teranoid wrote:
Barathorn wrote:
As Joannadark once said, "if everyone is a hero, then no-one is".

Read into that what you will.


Bbbut muh special snowflake syndrome!

It's like people who do nothing but mope around in life starting every sentence with "back in my day."


Oh if we are going down that road. Pay my subscription and all my bills I incur in life and then you can tell me what opinion I can have.

Until then you don't have to like what I say and if you don't want to read it put me on ignore. Otherwise you can eat my shorts.

Thanks.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:50 am

To clarify, there is absolutely NO need for 4 tiers of difficulty that I can see.

Surely the sensible option is,

1/ LFR for those who can't for whatever reason get to option 2.

2/ Flex raiding - used to be normal but now caters for all guild types and sizes with raids from 10-25 without having to PUG with scalable bosses.

3/ Heroic raiding [Flex included because sometimes attrition hits hard] for people who want a challenge.

I can see NO reason for 4 tiers when the above fit pretty much everyone's playstyle I can think of.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:57 am

Flex wrote:
Barathorn wrote:
What ever happened to being challenged and being rewarded for execution rather than amount of time thrown at the game?


Then raid normal and heroic and don't raid flex/LFR? Normal 10 man raiding has fallen significantly since WotLK which is almost solely due to how much more difficult it is compared to then. But I guess it is easier to bitch about how easy it is when you don't play it, like the forum posters who complain when heroic modes are cleared in the first couple weeks.


Thanks for not reading what I said. As per usual.

To clarify I am not bitching, I am merely stating that I am happy and also sad about how things turned out.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:12 am

Barathorn wrote:To clarify, there is absolutely NO need for 4 tiers of difficulty that I can see.

Surely the sensible option is,

1/ LFR for those who can't for whatever reason get to option 2.

2/ Flex raiding - used to be normal but now caters for all guild types and sizes with raids from 10-25 without having to PUG with scalable bosses.

3/ Heroic raiding [Flex included because sometimes attrition hits hard] for people who want a challenge.

I can see NO reason for 4 tiers when the above fit pretty much everyone's playstyle I can think of.

Blizzard disagrees. That's all that matters on that line. There's a sizable portion of the player base that are struggling with the current difficulty level of Normal mode but for whom LFR would never be a suitable substitute, and Blizz have decided it's worth catering to them. You disagree, whatever, that probably just means you're not in the target audience.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:25 am

Barathorn wrote:3/ Heroic raiding [Flex included because sometimes attrition hits hard] for people who want a challenge.


Heroic raids should never be allowed to have flexible raid size. Balancing the difficulty would be next to impossible.
Most encounters would end up having a sweet spot for how many people you should take, plus any mechanics that effect x number of players would take a disproportionate leap in difficulty each time the raid size caused an extra player to be affected.

I like the idea in principle, not having to decide who goes standby for each raid would be awesome.
I just don't see anyway they could tune it without severely limiting encounter design.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:44 am

KysenMurrin wrote:
Barathorn wrote:To clarify, there is absolutely NO need for 4 tiers of difficulty that I can see.

Surely the sensible option is,

1/ LFR for those who can't for whatever reason get to option 2.

2/ Flex raiding - used to be normal but now caters for all guild types and sizes with raids from 10-25 without having to PUG with scalable bosses.

3/ Heroic raiding [Flex included because sometimes attrition hits hard] for people who want a challenge.

I can see NO reason for 4 tiers when the above fit pretty much everyone's playstyle I can think of.

Blizzard disagrees. That's all that matters on that line. There's a sizable portion of the player base that are struggling with the current difficulty level of Normal mode but for whom LFR would never be a suitable substitute, and Blizz have decided it's worth catering to them. You disagree, whatever, that probably just means you're not in the target audience.


I think that is probably 100% correct Kysen. Thanks for actually reading what I was saying.

I think the issue I can't get my head around or convey properly is 'who' these people are for whom LFR is a cakewalk and normal is too difficult. I can hazard a guess that it is the people who in my old guild couldn't dance in Naxx or kite in Ulduar or hide behind ice in the Witchy Kings house but these people were always in the minority and as long as we didn't have more than 2 of them in a 10 man raid then we generally coped [mainly thanks to Amh, his friend Chris, Ulushnar and some stellar performances from our guild members who stepped up to the challenge].

I guess the real question is this because a/ normal got harder or b/ player skill got worse? If its (a) then I can understand and don't feel as sad. If it is (b) then I remain sad while being happy that flexibility is being offered.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Ironshield » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:51 am

Barathorn wrote:To clarify, there is absolutely NO need for 4 tiers of difficulty that I can see.

Surely the sensible option is,

1/ LFR for those who can't for whatever reason get to option 2.

2/ Flex raiding - used to be normal but now caters for all guild types and sizes with raids from 10-25 without having to PUG with scalable bosses.

3/ Heroic raiding [Flex included because sometimes attrition hits hard] for people who want a challenge.

I can see NO reason for 4 tiers when the above fit pretty much everyone's playstyle I can think of.

As someone who's spent all of 5.x so far progressing at a nice steady pace through normal modes with a few cracks at the odd heroic and loving every moment of this pace, I'd just like to say "F@#k that noise!"

Also flex on progression content, and normal is progression for many of us, will DEFINITELY result in a less fun experience.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:09 am

Ironshield wrote:Also flex on progression content, and normal is progression for many of us, will DEFINITELY result in a less fun experience.


How? This is obviously what I can't understand so an explanation would be very helpful?

Cheers.

I also don't understand what you mean by F*** that noise?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Qeeze » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:16 am

ghostcrawler wrote:The heirloom weapons that drop from Garrosh are personal loot in Flex, Normal, and Heroic difficulty. The first heirloom weapon that drops for you will be for your current loot spec, but after that you will get one at random.


My bet is that lots of players will run both flex, & a normal/heroic each reset just to get Garrosh's heirloom weapons.

I know I will since I have 7 level 90's
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby econ21 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:31 am

Barathorn wrote:I think the issue I can't get my head around or convey properly is 'who' these people are for whom LFR is a cakewalk and normal is too difficult.


I've got a horrible feeling it's for people like me and my guild. We were 6/12 for almost all of this expansion. Just stirred enough to kill 3 new bosses last week and desperately trying to kill the last 3 before the patch. Our RL has suggested we are better suited to flex, as we don't tend to clear normal until we outgear it. There's a core of players for whom this hurts, as we think we're better than that. But the problem is we haven't had 10 such players who regularly show up each week. We raid once a week, usually with different PUG members making up the numbers (who have to learn tactics, kill old bosses to gear up etc).

I think the big thing behind all this is the massive decline in the number of raiding guilds. There was a thread on MMO champion about this. On most servers since ICC, there are about 1/10 of the number of raiding guilds. People have just stopped doing normals. Half raiders do heroics. The normal only raider cohort has shrunk terribly. Perhaps due to difficulty, perhaps due to LFR. But it's clear LFR is not a perfect substitute for these lost raiders as there is little to no challenge in it (unless you are tanking it imo). It's not just the damage scaling, it's the absence of key mechanics on many encounters - for example, I just did Dark Animus on normal and it was hard to recognise the fight from LFR, it was so different.

I don't particularly like the introduction of Flex (a 3rd raid lockout I might have to try to run each week) but I do understand where it's coming from.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:07 am

Barathorn wrote:I guess the real question is this because a/ normal got harder or b/ player skill got worse? If its (a) then I can understand and don't feel as sad. If it is (b) then I remain sad while being happy that flexibility is being offered.


GC said they made 10N harder vis a vis 10N of Wrath since there is no gear difference between 10N and 25N now.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:09 am

WotLK was relatively easy and was the start of opening up raiding to a larger portion of the player base. Then, significantly, Dragon Soul was very easy, giving a lot of the lower end an expectation of progress they'd never had before. Then they went back to a higher difficulty baseline in MoP, and you now regularly see people (here on Maintankadin included) talking about their guild being stuck on bosses like Garalon, Horridon, and others, making slow progress and often not clearing the raid before the next one comes out.

(Context: My own experience over the years in WoW has left me feeling that downing roughly one new boss every week or two is a decent progress rate and shows you're playing at the right content level.)

Blizzard allowed raiding to become a large part of why people play for a portion of the player base that had originally not been able to access raids, and they've spent the last few years trying to work out how to cater to that group. Flex is the solution they've come up with for now. I can't disagree with their reasoning there.

Taken on its own, if I was still raiding I'd probably just be running Normal and paying no attention to Flex, because that's the level I have been raiding at, but others would gain from it. The only real issue is that of rewards like loot, which change the consideration of "would I need to run it", and that's why we've got that other big topic arguing back and forth on the subject.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:39 am

There's quite a big step between LFR and Normal. Normal now is certainly quite a step up from WotLK 10 man normals.

LFR is something you can queue up by your own, no real organization needed, filled with complete randoms, where you come to see how the bosses look like, and get some free gear.

Normal is actually quite challenging, requires proper organization and execution, and requires the players to know their class (though they don't have to play at peek performance). It also requires a more or less steady group of either 10 or 25 players.

Flex is supposed to be in between there. It won't be filled with total randoms, and the bosses don't fall over by themselves. You do need to execute the fights somewhat properly, though it won't be as tight as on Normal. You also don't need to have a fixed group of 10 players. You can bring 12 players on one day, and 20 on the other. If you're in a Flex guild, you probably want a bigger roster than the default 10, so that even if a couple of players don't show up, you still have enough players and role coverage to raid Flex.

Flex is also an instance where normal/heroic raiders can go for some more casual content, allowing them to play with guildies and friends that lack the skill/gear required for normal/heroic raiding, without holding back their normal/heroic raiding. It also allows them to complete their meta-achievements without screwing over heroic progression/farming.

I'm personally quite interested in seeing Flex. It appeals a whole lot more to me, than LFR would ever do.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:47 am

Thanks econ, Klaus and Kysen. That gives me all the information I needed without informing me I must be a special snowflake which is definately NOT what I am as anyone who has spoken to me over the last 5 years on this forum can verify. If anything I pretty much was the 'Mr average gamer who raids a bit and does some heroic stuff when able' for TBC and WotLK and 'Mr Average Gamer who runs Heroic Dungeons' for Cataclysm for a while.

To a certain extent I have been in a bubble since dinging 90 but I am deciding on dipping my toe into the water raid wise while the MTG season is slower, hence the questions as I am trying to understand how things changed since halfway through Kittyclysm to where we are today?

If the model was working fine with everyone able to see content in WotLK why the hell was it changed at the start of MOP? It makes no sense to me.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby lythac » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:57 am

I'm wondering if somewhere along the way (MoP) they started balancing 10 man normal around having Bloodlust/Heroism and just didn't tell anyone (or I just can't find it). Was that when Hunters could first bring it?

10 man SoO is almost definitely balanced around having it* (Drums of Rage), possible the other raids have been as well.

* a slightly weaker version
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:08 am

I started raiding towards the end of WotLK, 10/25 on separate lockouts worked ok at the time but required most raiders to do far too much raiding in a size they liked less.

Near the end of ICC we talked about trying to move up to 25 man, non of the guild really wanted to be part of a 25 man but we also didn't like the 2nd class raider status 10 man had.

For me and my guild combining 10 and 25 is one of the best decisions Blizz ever made, it's allowed us to stay a small guild while still raiding some of the most challenging content.
Last edited by daishan on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:10 am

Wasn't it the start of cata that both mages and BM hunters got hero?
It's just that BM wasn't really viable in cata.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:12 am

lythac wrote:I'm wondering if somewhere along the way (MoP) they started balancing 10 man normal around having Bloodlust/Heroism and just didn't tell anyone (or I just can't find it). Was that when Hunters could first bring it?

10 man SoO is almost definitely balanced around having it* (Drums of Rage), possible the other raids have been as well.

* a slightly weaker version

10 men is still based on having all (or almost all) buffs.

There's a reason for which all buffs got distributed to 3-4 classes, and hunters can bring pretty much every single buff in game ;)
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