Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:50 am

benebarba wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:I feel better knowing that you're all just guessing from what they've said so far.


speculation is always better on fridays.


And it's what we do best, after trolling...
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby benebarba » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:52 am

halabar wrote:
benebarba wrote:
Flex wrote:As for loot they could do something amusing like hard breakpoints: 2 at 10, 3 at 15, 4 at 20 and 5 at 25.

Have 11 raiders? You have a 20% chance at 3 pieces and so on.


or even easier: individual loot (which I thought they mentioned keeping atm). Downside there would be DE'ing, since you wouldn't have stuff to put up for DE, also would eliminate using loot to reward raider's or strategy around who to upgrade, and could end up with everyone or no one getting loot (though I imagine that would be adjustable)... but if it's the more casual groups this is aimed at, those seem like pretty minor points.


It is individual now, if they apply it to normals in 6.0, they might have to change that...


Why?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Flex » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:54 am

benebarba wrote:It is individual now, if they apply it to normals in 6.0, they might have to change that...


Why?[/quote]

Tradition. Kill bosses get loot, if normal remains normal but flex in size that would have to carry over.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Teranoid » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:54 am

halabar wrote:
benebarba wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:I feel better knowing that you're all just guessing from what they've said so far.


speculation is always better on fridays.


And it's what we do best, after acting like the sky is falling and using the phrase 'slap in the face' at least four times...
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby benebarba » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:00 pm

Flex wrote:
benebarba wrote:Why?


Tradition. Kill bosses get loot, if normal remains normal but flex in size that would have to carry over.


But fixed raid sizes were tradition too. And coming up with a scaling loot system seems like a heck of a kludge (and a set up for complaints) when you're already going to be tossing out one major aspect of raiding tradition.

I admit that I agree that seeing someone get loot (or the guild get mats) every kill is nice, I just wonder if trying to jam that methodology into a scaling raid size would cause more headaches than it's worth.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Flex » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:02 pm

well the simplest scaling loot system is 1 piece of gear per 5 players, 1 tier per ten players. Not really kludgey, now my 20% chance at 3 if 11 might be kludgey.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:05 pm

benebarba wrote:
Flex wrote:
benebarba wrote:Why?


Tradition. Kill bosses get loot, if normal remains normal but flex in size that would have to carry over.


But fixed raid sizes were tradition too. And coming up with a scaling loot system seems like a heck of a kludge (and a set up for complaints) when you're already going to be tossing out one major aspect of raiding tradition.

I admit that I agree that seeing someone get loot (or the guild get mats) every kill is nice, I just wonder if trying to jam that methodology into a scaling raid size would cause more headaches than it's worth.


Would suck doing progression and no one got loot from 3 bosses in a row..
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:06 pm

Flex wrote:well the simplest scaling loot system is 1 piece of gear per 5 players, 1 tier per ten players. Not really kludgey, now my 20% chance at 3 if 11 might be kludgey.


Yep, but it's the likely solution.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:06 pm

Teranoid wrote:
halabar wrote:
benebarba wrote:
speculation is always better on fridays.


And it's what we do best, after acting like the sky is falling and using the phrase 'slap in the face' at least four times...

To be honest, I feel like the "sky is falling" crowd have largely died off.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby benebarba » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:08 pm

Flex wrote:well the simplest scaling loot system is 1 piece of gear per 5 players, 1 tier per ten players. Not really kludgey, now my 20% chance at 3 if 11 might be kludgey.


yeah, the loot/5-people, tier/10 seems like a nice method, especially if extra roll tokens stay around. You still get all the freedom/constraints of a current normal/heroic raid, and an easily estimatable amount of loot per boss based on your raid size.

going much beyond that I think seems likely to add chances for the system to break. But who knows, maybe it won't actually be that bad (not knowing anything about the stuff under the hood)
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Flex » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:08 pm

Nikachelle wrote:To be honest, I feel like the "sky is falling" crowd have largely died off.


You don't follow hunter changes on here.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby benebarba » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:09 pm

halabar wrote:Would suck doing progression and no one got loot from 3 bosses in a row..


But can't that happen now, unless you purposefully make your roster cover all the loot?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Flex » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:11 pm

benebarba wrote:
halabar wrote:Would suck doing progression and no one got loot from 3 bosses in a row..


But can't that happen now, unless you purposefully make your roster cover all the loot?


At least in the current situation, probably the best implementation of raid craftables yet, disenchanted loot can make usable raid crafted items.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Chunes » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:23 pm

Flex wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:To be honest, I feel like the "sky is falling" crowd have largely died off.


You don't follow hunter changes on here.



:lol:

Even still, I think Hala was the only one really up in arms about the hunter changes. 1 person crying 'SLAP IN THE FACE TO THE GROUND!!!'* isn't too terrible.





*artful paraphrase of otherwise eloquent posts by hala
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:59 pm

benebarba wrote:
halabar wrote:Would suck doing progression and no one got loot from 3 bosses in a row..


But can't that happen now, unless you purposefully make your roster cover all the loot?


This happens to us all the fucking time. I especially like sharding both pieces of heroic gear the very first time we kill a boss because no one can use them, which is another guild tradition.

I thought pc!Flex's 20% chance of +1 loot per player with hard points was brill. Not much of a kludge at all.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Shoju » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:00 pm

I like the idea.
I even like the loot.
I don't like that it's a 4th "tier" thats just dumb.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:15 pm

Shoju wrote:I like the idea.
I even like the loot.
I don't like that it's a 4th "tier" thats just dumb.


I strongly suspect that 4th tier is to test the tech, and apply it to normals in 6.0.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:10 pm

I don't think it's a test.

They want to keep the 4 difficulty system as it cathers all the players. If they would "merge" Flex and Normals, we'd have a lot of people (the current Normal raiders) who would steamroll the new Normal, and then have no way to defeat the first hc boss as it'd be too much of a step up.

It's possible they will apply it to normals later. But in no way the new difficulty will get removed.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby bldavis » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:12 pm

i hope not...
i say here is the one difficulty to just fuck around in
so you have

LFR - non raiders/alts (LFR now)
Flex - friends, those that want to see the content but dont have time/skill for progression (little challenge)
normal = actual progression raiding for those of good, but not great, skill (fairly challenging but still achievable)
heroic - ultimate challenge for those that want it
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:11 pm

That's what I expect as well.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:09 pm

Worldie wrote:That's what I expect as well.


I'd still wager that IF the tech works well, we'll see it applied to normals, further solution to the crying about 10 vs 25.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby bldavis » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:13 pm

halabar wrote:
Worldie wrote:That's what I expect as well.


I'd still wager that IF the tech works well, we'll see it applied to normals, further solution to the crying about 10 vs 25.

im sorry but you have said this like 4 times now... :?
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:55 pm

bldavis wrote:
halabar wrote:
Worldie wrote:That's what I expect as well.


I'd still wager that IF the tech works well, we'll see it applied to normals, further solution to the crying about 10 vs 25.

im sorry but you have said this like 4 times now... :?


sorry gramps.

...

In other news, a few new tidbits about it from blue posts...

Quick edit to the above, all that is still true, but the designers are discussing allowing you to at least enter the raid with 8+ people. The intent would be to allow a group to start clearing trash while they wait for a couple stragglers, as the difficulty with less than 10 would still be scaled for 10. It could allow for skilled/geared players to do it with less than 10, but some mechanics just may not be possible as we're not designing for it.

Can they leave and have the raid automatically adjust on the fly? How about adding people after it starts?

Yes, and yes. It's dynamic.


So possibly as few as 8, and dynamic scaling, which will be nice for F&F guilds where some folks have to leave early or come late.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:40 pm

Adjust on the fly eh? I see so many problems with this when people leave mid-fight and start exploiting stuff.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid!

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:03 pm

Nikachelle wrote:Adjust on the fly eh? I see so many problems with this when people leave mid-fight and start exploiting stuff.


I'm sure they've considered that, and won't actually change anything in the middle of combat. That seems kind of ... obvious.

We've done the last wing with 9, so it's nice they'll let you start with fewer people.

I'd much rather they scale fight difficulty based on the fight itself rather than a menu toggle (Want easy? Don't engage adds. Normal? Engage +1 add. Difficult? +2 adds. Heroic? +4 adds.)

Ah well. We'll see how it plays out. Hopefully it plays out well. As envisioned it doesn't help me out at all, but I'm sure many guilds will benefit.
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