Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby bldavis » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:59 pm

its mostly based on DK..it is something that would need some more work

BrMs are mostly the prototypical drunken master style of fighting, where as rogue tanks would be the most master fencer ..at least that is what i was thinking

the difference between a shockadin and smite priest is basically what they are capable of as a class
remembering that paladins are mostly former priests and clerics, maybe a paladin is getting back to their roots and being a smite priest, but are still able to have hte big weapon and heavy armor
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:21 pm

bldavis wrote:Mage - i would say a time warping based healer for their 4th..not real sure on this one

I like the theme of timeshifted healing, but you'd have to be careful not to end up with just another Holy priest or Resto Druid.

Perhaps it would be more a support than a full on healer with their abilities even allowing the extention of some buffs/reduction of some debuffs.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Kelerei » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:02 pm

My crazy thoughts:

Death Knight: I'd combine the idea of splitting Unholy into different pet/disease specs and the idea of DKs having a necromatic spellcaster spec (I could see this happening to the the "disease" spec). And hey, we'd have more than one spec being able to use intellect plate.

Druid: Has 4 specs already. :P

Hunter: I seem to remember that back in vanilla, Blizz intended to make Survival a melee-based spec. We all know that that didn't turn out too well, but if they did it properly this time around...

Mage: I loved the time-warping healer suggestion. This could actually work quite well. Make it more of a support role, but with the ability to extend the duration of buffs/debuffs (the time-warping mage would actually not have great output himself/herself, but would increase the output of the rest of the party -- can you imagine a mage increasing the duration of Bloodlust, for example?), and you have a very unique idea -- difficult to pull off though, and even harder to balance.

Monk: I don't know. The only thing that I can think of is a caster DPS spec, and I'm struggling to fit this into the monk archetype. But it's another thing that could work out nicely.

Paladin: Shockadins. Most definitely shockadins. Another use for intellect plate!

Priest: It would need to be a DPS spec, but one with a different playstyle than shadow. Probably a burst-DPS playstyle, since my understanding of shadow is all about DoTs...

Rogue: While a tank spec sounds great (my rogue in my raid team would love to evasion tank!), I just don't see this fitting into the rogue archetype. I'm going to go with a ranged "sniper"-style spec, since that's the sort of thing I would imagine a rogue doing. They'd use the same weapons as hunters do currently. Though, I don't envy the poor sod who would have to balance this for PvP...

Shaman: Many people would like to see shaman tanking make a comeback, and I'm one of them.

Warlock: I liked the Demon Hunter suggestion, but I'd prefer to see the Demon Hunter as an additional hero class in the future if/when we have to fight the Burning Legion again. Though, the ability to transform into a demon and tank everything (*cough* Illidan after consuming the Skull of Guldan) is a really cool idea. And besides, clothie "tanks" is a novel idea that could really be explored.

Warrior: Second tank spec, though it would need a very different play style than the current tank spec. One could combine the current prot warrior and blood DK styles, but then you'd end up with something similar to us prot pallies. That said, I like the idea of something fitting in with the Barbarian archetype.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Passionario » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:45 pm

Priest: A pet-based DPS spec.

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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:49 pm

Some additional ideas for the Time Warping Mage:

- Freeze Time: AoE bubble (a la PW:B or AMZ) that "freezes" all buffs at their current duration, HoTs continue to tick, but time doesn't get eaten. Alternatively could freeze all buffs and debuffs with ticks not happening (nor damage in the case of debuffs) though this would be anti-synergy between mages and druids.
- Could work something out with spell-steal that allows them to switch the stolen buff to another player or through the use of "time shifting" duplicate stacks of things like lifebloom.
- Time Capture: Save the current status of a player (buffs/debuffs/possibly hp & mana totals) that you allows you "reset" a player later in the fight.
- Stitch in Time: place a buff on the player that reduces the damage of the next hit (almost a bubble or damage reduction buff, but on a smaller scale to make it more "spammable")
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:58 am

I can't help feel that a support spec with things like buff extension would be hard to balance, but I'm liking these time twisting concepts. It's given me a couple ideas -

- Reworking Alter Time to be castable on any target. Could be used for dps as it is now, or to save tank health when they're about to take a big hit.
- Stop Time, a major cooldown that freezes all enemies in place for a couple of seconds - this would pause all enemy attacks and casting, allowing players to position and heal up before something big. The incoming attacks would still continue once it expired - it wouldn't interrupt. (Though I'm not sure how this'd work if the tanks were able to move out of melee range of a boss during its effect, could be exploitable.)
- A Mage battle res.
- Reverse Time - a channelled heal that "reverses" all damage received in the last x seconds. Say a tank takes hits for 50k, 100k, 10k aoe tick, 80k over 5 seconds; Reverse Time would heal for 80k, 10k, 100k, 50k over 5 seconds, which could be sped up with haste.

I doubt there's a snowflake's chance in hell of this ever existing as a new spec, but it's fun to think about.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby culhag » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:28 am

What I think would be cool would be an "Air Mage" spec that uses the sonic pulse graphics from Atramedes and Zorlok.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Paxen » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:23 am

The time mage concept is pure awesome! (I think it would be ridiculously hard to balance, because the results would be so different from what other specs can do, but it's fun to think about.)

For the warrior tank, I think with stagger and regen it would be quite different from a DK. Sure, it's based on self-heals, but the DK uses shields and burst healing. "Barbarian" would convert damage to dots and then counter it with self-hots. Would perhaps be closer to Brewmaster than DK. This would be sufficiently different from Prot tanking that it would be a cool change for warriors IMO.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:20 am

My thought on reading the Warrior idea was that it just seemed too much like a Brewmaster clone, tbh.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby lythac » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:30 am

I'm pretty certain there has been a blue post since MoP that they do not want to add additional raid roles to classes. Worry that some darling pure DPS players would be under pressure from their evil guilds to pick up a healing/tanking spec. How many times have struggling guilds been "Oh only if we had more DPS!" (I'm sure it has happened).

So with that in mind my suggestions focus around adding a ranged or melee DPS spec to increase raid flexibility without any additional loot woes (sure they won't want the exact same stats). And for some classes I don't really have an idea for.

Death Knight: Ranged DPS - Necromancer. Uses intellect gear
I'd combine the idea of splitting Unholy into different pet/disease specs and the idea of DKs having a necromatic spellcaster spec (I could see this happening to the the "disease" spec). And hey, we'd have more than one spec being able to use intellect plate.


Druid: Already have 4 specs.

Hunter: Melee DPS. Uses existing gear.

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Mage: Melee DPS - Battle Mage. Uses existing gear, talent which converts SP to AP.

Monk:

Paladin: Ranged DPS - Shockadin. uses intellect plate. Obvious.

Priest:

Rogue: Ranged DPS - Star Throwing ninja. I saw sniper type spec mentioned earlier, not sure what weapon would be best suited as thrown weapons have been removed (?) and I do not like the idea of them with a bow/gun.

Shaman:

Warlock:

Warrior: Already have 4 specs, Prot, Arms, TG, SMF.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Fetzie » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:35 am

How many times have struggling guilds been "Oh only if we had more DPS!" (I'm sure it has happened).

My last guild collapsed because of a lack of decent DPS.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Paxen » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:26 am

lythac wrote:I'm pretty certain there has been a blue post since MoP that they do not want to add additional raid roles to classes. Worry that some darling pure DPS players would be under pressure from their evil guilds to pick up a healing/tanking spec. How many times have struggling guilds been "Oh only if we had more DPS!" (I'm sure it has happened).


And if I hadn't seen a double handful of retpalas and dps DKs hanging around in LFR waiting for that tank that never joins I might even agree with them.

But I don't. TBH I think that if most classes could fulfill multiple roles it would be easier to accept that people play the role they like, and not every role that their class can be. A dps warrior wouldn't be under more pressure to tank than a warlock or mage.

Melee mage would be cool. Not as cool as the time mage, but easier to implement. The Enhancement shaman is the obvious template (best battle mage in any game, IMHO). Would need some kind of ability so that Staffs aren't favored, I think the archetypal battle mage would use a spellpower sword and an offhand item.

Abilities could be:
- A primary weapon attack
- A melee range spell attack ("touch attack" to use D&D terminology)
One of these is a cooldown, the other is the filler
- A 10-second cooldown that is a damaging melee attack, but that also allows the mage to cast one mage spell as an instant (the mage can choose almost whatever he likes from the normal mage spells - the MW weapon analogy). There's also a proc that can reset the cooldown of the "enabler" spell.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:42 am

I don't see why a melee mage would need to convert SP to AP, lythac. Base them around spells that use the weapon to prevent them just attacking at range, but otherwise treat them like a caster for damage scaling. You could even have their weapon swings deal magic damage. Just because they're in melee range doesn't mean they need to work like a physical dps.

Hmm. Idea:
- Make the Armor spells turn offensive when used by this spec. Instead of applying effects when struck, they apply them when the Mage hits with a melee attack. Frost Armor = slow, Molten Armor = damage, Mage Armor remains the same.
- Interesting things could be done with spells like Cone of Cold, Dragon's Breath, or Arcane Explosion for this spec. Could even take one or more of those spells away from the existing specs and make it melee-exclusive (Dragon's Breath would be my choice).

Hmm. Unfortunately all my Battlemage ideas are blending the elemental flavours of the three current specs, when current trends are to divide them up more by spell type.


Edit: I'm starting to smell a new class idea forming. Time mage and Battlemage as two of the specs. Perhaps go Heal/Melee/Ranged, with a wind mage as the third option. Edit: Not wind mage. Illusionist. Timetwister/Battlemage/Illusionist. That's how you keep it distinct from the existing mage specs, by not associating with elements.
Last edited by KysenMurrin on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Passionario » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:58 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Avoidance tanking is virtually unbalanceable alongside other tank designs, so it would be hard to add a Rogue tank.


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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:59 am

I don't think that fixes it. High avoidance means you have to make them take more damage when they do get hit, otherwise they're just better than the other tanks.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Paxen » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:08 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I don't think that fixes it. High avoidance means you have to make them take more damage when they do get hit, otherwise they're just better than the other tanks.


Is that really the case? Monks get +30% parry chance from shuffle, which has close to 100% uptime. Theoretically that could be to balance out the missing dodge and parry ratings, but paladins avoid those ratings like the plague and do fine. There's already a case of avoidance being very unequal amongst tanks.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:41 am

The entire mechanic of Stagger is there to compensate for their lower mitigation - it allows a Monk to take more damage without being dangerously spiky. If Stagger just cut damage in half, and didn't apply it as a DoT, then you'd have that Rogue proposal above.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby culhag » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:58 am

Re: the Battle Mage
Isn't that concept already well covered with the Enhancement Shaman and the Ret Paladin ?
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Shoju » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:11 am

I would be really interested in a Dual Wielding Shield Tank. The problem is, How do you balance it?

Shields don't have "weapon" stats, So you would be going completely off of strength. It would fit as a warrior I think. But, I would see a penalty to avoidance, based on the fact that you are DUAL. WIELDING. SHIELDS. and Shields can be cumbersome. Just look at the Illidan Shield. Could YOU carry two of those into battle? (and let's be real, we know we'd see 2x Illy Shields mogged EVERYWHERE)

So, you would have Shield Slam, There's an attack. But then what? Some abilities just wouldn't make sense "thematically" (OK, I know it's blizz, and "thematically" is a really broad, open, loose term to them) But seriously. How do you Cleave with a Shield?

It would open up some interesting perspectives. it would bring back the idea of blocking and armor and steady stream of damage VS Spike damage. I would love to see it happen. It might even hold enough interest for me to come back on a 10 day rip to try it.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby halabar » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:13 am

With the changes that they've made to rare pets and such this expac, more and more I really like the idea of MM being a petless hunter spec (or add a new ranger spec that is petless).

It seems that Blizz is putting more thought into battle pets than they are into hunter pets. Makes me sad.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Paxen » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:37 am

KysenMurrin wrote:The entire mechanic of Stagger is there to compensate for their lower mitigation - it allows a Monk to take more damage without being dangerously spiky. If Stagger just cut damage in half, and didn't apply it as a DoT, then you'd have that Rogue proposal above.


I've seen it argued over on EJ that stagger damage is so easily healed (by hots mostly) that it might as well not be there. If that's true (and there was no theorycrafting presented to back it up, only anecdotes), then there is no important difference between Stagger and the rogue effect. I haven't tanked anything beyond dungeons and LFR on my monk, so I don't know either way.

culhag wrote:Re: the Battle Mage
Isn't that concept already well covered with the Enhancement Shaman and the Ret Paladin ?


Yes, but the original concept (coming mainly from D&D) has always been about a wizard/mage that uses a sword, not other kinds of magic users who wields weapons. I do think that Enhancement Shamans is one of the best implementations of the Gish/swordmage/battle mage concept I've seen in any game, and that's mostly down to Maelstrom Weapon (bonus for having full access to lightning bolt and lava burst I guess).

Shoju wrote:I would be really interested in a Dual Wielding Shield Tank. The problem is, How do you balance it?


I'm not the right person to comment on this. I think Titan's Grip is cheesy, what do you think my opinion on dual wielding shields is :P
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby halabar » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:46 am

Paxen wrote:
culhag wrote:Re: the Battle Mage
Isn't that concept already well covered with the Enhancement Shaman and the Ret Paladin ?


Yes, but the original concept (coming mainly from D&D) has always been about a wizard/mage that uses a sword, not other kinds of magic users who wields weapons. I do think that Enhancement Shamans is one of the best implementations of the Gish/swordmage/battle mage concept I've seen in any game, and that's mostly down to Maelstrom Weapon (bonus for having full access to lightning bolt and lava burst I guess).


To really make it different, the spec or class would have to be more about applying special spells and effects through the weapon. DKs barely touch this area with runeforging, but unless you really have a new mechanic, it's just different spells.

Pallys could get a real shockadin spec, that would be balanced for a change.

But rather than a 4th spec, I'd rather see Blizz working to make the existing specs more unique.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Paxen » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:54 am

Anybody want to help me mock up a "barbarian" tank spec for warriors? Not much love for the stagger/regen thingy, but at least somebody liked the concept of a more savage warrior tank.

What makes a tank spec unique? Visuals and style, of course, but mechanics are just as important. A list over different areas where a spec can find its own style:

- Resources. Warriors get rage, of course, and already it's a big difference between them and Monks (imo). It should probably use Defensive Stance, so rage will come exclusively from specials.
- What are the limits on rage gen? Monks and Death Knights are limited by a steady "stream" of resources (energy and runes), while paladins and warriors are cooldown based, with procs to liven it up. If we want to have a stagger spec that's different from brewmasters it should gain resources like a prot warrior, that is cooldowns and procs. If we want it to stand out from prot warriors a better way would be to gain rage steadily (probably mostly from auto attacks), and then add an intermediate step between rage and active mitigation
- What are the effects of AM? I think a regeneration effect definetly has to be in there, some kind of heal over time like Enraged Regen and Second Wind. Probably scales off attack power. But there has to be another effect that increases EH (for want of a better word). Stagger is one way, a shield with a numeric value another (like Blood Shield). Other ideas?
- Cooldowns. Monks have some weird cooldowns, but that's more fun than Yet Another Shield Wall clone. Since shield wall requires shields, that's a good argument for skipping it. Could use Die by the Sword, but that's probably a bit OP for a real tank.

My concept was to gain resources like a prot warrior, and have Stagger and regeneration as AM. I would think that would be unique enough, but maybe we can get even more creative?
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Flex » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:36 pm

Paxen wrote:Anybody want to help me mock up a "barbarian" tank spec for warriors? Not much love for the stagger/regen thingy, but at least somebody liked the concept of a more savage warrior tank.

  • Ability List: Revenge, Dodge/Parry activated Overpower, Cleave, Heroic Strike, Whirlwind and the spec specific Challenging Blow.
  • Challenging Blow: Strikes with both weapons for significant damage and generate significant rage, causes Deadly Calm. 6 second cooldown, moderate chance to reset when taking direct damage.
  • Deadly Calm: Stacks up to 2 times. Reduces rage cost of Heroic Strike and Cleave by 50%/100% and increases target cap of Cleave by 2/4.
  • They get a passive increase to store up to 200 rage.
  • AM: Damage Taken is reduced by X% for 10 seconds after using Challenging Blow and heals for Y% of damage dealt.
  • Shield Wall gets replaced with Deflection. Which is just a RP text change. Deflects all incoming damage reducing its effectiveness by 50%.
  • Demoralizing Shout becomes the spammed Shield Block ability for Barbarians. Demoralizes the enemies decreasing their physical damage done by (current rage/4)% for X seconds. Use it at 200 rage get 50% reduction, at 40 rage only 10%.
  • Shield Barrier gets a RP change to just makes it a Shout that gives a bubble.
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Re: Random musing: 4th spec for all in next expac?

Postby Koatanga » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:11 pm

DK: Definitely a ranged caster int-plate type.
Monk: Ranged caster - just give them the ability to chain crackling jade lightning, and a ranged DPS Chi dump.
Priest: Holy DPS completely fleshed out as a pure DPS spec.
Hunter: Shapeshifter who could shift to his current pet with enhanced abilities. Role could shift based on pet selection.
Rogue: Rather than another boring DPS spec, how about a pure enhancement spec centred around increasing the performance of everyone else instead of focusing on his own damage. The Bard would use intellect leather and use inspirational abilities on allies and demoralising ones on bosses. Damage abilities wouldn't be impressive - this is not a leveling or solo spec.
Warlock: Demon-form tank ftw.
Mage: Magic-based tank mitigating with passive and active shields.
Warrior: Another option for the enhancement role (bring the player, not the class) would be the General, rallying his troops and exposing enemy weaknesses.
Paladin: Shockadin - duh
Shaman: Third option for the enhancement role, controlling the elements to advantage party members and weaken enemies. unfortunate that they have a spec called "enhancement" that no longer really enhances very much.

The idea of the enhancement role would be for experienced players who don't have to be meter hogs to have a good time, who can help to make up for less experienced raiders whose performance is not quite up to scratch, or make experienced players really shine. A pure support role with various symbioses with other classes.
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