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Patch 5.3 Notes

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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Sagara » Fri May 24, 2013 11:52 am

The real story is that players are but an extra layer that devs and QA's have discovered is good to root out bugs simply by the power of their sheer mass - players on a PTR generate a fuckton of data.

Which reminds me, wasn't there a number of bugs found/solved on WoW that floated a couple months ago that was riding in the multiple millions?

EDIT: Found Only 180 000 bugs by 17th september 2009. All in all, nothing to sneeze at.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby benebarba » Fri May 24, 2013 12:19 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
benebarba wrote:let's never bring up this strawman, K? It's worse than a slashdot car analogy.


Well to be fair, it's actually your analogies that are the straw man, since he is not suggesting that "real companies" produce bug free code. He was responding to the statement that "the burden lies on the player base", which is not accurate. The analogy he made is actually fair, though a bit extreme.

Blizz and many other companies use the player base (public testing) as a source of help, but the responsibility belongs to the dev team. Sometimes bugs make it through that "should not".
I don't know a devloper/QA person anywhere that would suggest otherwise, however without knowing the details of these bugs it really is quite difficult to speculate whether or not these fall into that category.

Bugs are annoying, but given the product and how effective it has been for a very long time, it's hard to argue that the development effort isn't very high quality.


Actually - upon re-reading his post... my comments are worse than a strawman: they are completely irrelevant.

Anyway... Back to 5.3:

does anyone else have some serious lag in the updating/showing of objectives for the barrens stuff? Like I'll get the announcement that a caravan has tipped or a commander yelling, but nada on the map. Usually the marks don't seem to appear for the commanders until they've been up for several minutes, and remain long after dead. If they didn't show up at all, I'd think it was one of the known issues... but this seems somewhat different.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 24, 2013 12:24 pm

Sagara wrote:The real story is that players are but an extra layer that devs and QA's have discovered is good to root out bugs simply by the power of their sheer mass - players on a PTR generate a fuckton of data.

Which reminds me, wasn't there a number of bugs found/solved on WoW that floated a couple months ago that was riding in the multiple millions?

EDIT: Found Only 180 000 bugs by 17th september 2009. All in all, nothing to sneeze at.


Indeed there's no really great substitute for that sort of testing.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby benebarba » Fri May 24, 2013 12:39 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Sagara wrote:The real story is that players are but an extra layer that devs and QA's have discovered is good to root out bugs simply by the power of their sheer mass - players on a PTR generate a fuckton of data.

Which reminds me, wasn't there a number of bugs found/solved on WoW that floated a couple months ago that was riding in the multiple millions?

EDIT: Found Only 180 000 bugs by 17th september 2009. All in all, nothing to sneeze at.


Indeed there's no really great substitute for that sort of testing.


Oh, and don't forget: they do it *for free*. Perfect system? nope - but a tough one to beat.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby econ21 » Fri May 24, 2013 3:03 pm

benebarba wrote:does anyone else have some serious lag in the updating/showing of objectives for the barrens stuff? Like I'll get the announcement that a caravan has tipped or a commander yelling, but nada on the map.


Haven't noticed a problem with commanders, but the fact that upturned caravans stopped showing up on my map totally soured me on the weekly. (I was doing it early in the morning, so no company to take down commanders but upturned caravans were gravy).
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Darielle » Sat May 25, 2013 9:14 am

This is a failure of their CM system, then.


On the other hand, what we do see on the PTR as the final build isn't necessarily the final build that is pushed to live, not accounting for the various hotfixes that need to be applied within hours. So whether something's introduced in final stages doesn't realllly have to be content management related.

Oh sure, but if that's all you did with it that's hardly "testing" the skill. *shrug* If I had the responsibility of testing the skill, I'd be trying it on all sorts of things. Tanks and self probably first - that would be quite a surprise when you cast it on yourself and the boss suddenly turned and stomped you! Then "does it work on hunter pets?" "Does it work on people not in party?" All kinds of things to try!


Why do you need to do it on tanks and self in combat? If you were out by the target dummies popping Treants on people's heads, you're testing scaling, use, etc. What would fathom you to go specifically test FoN in combat on a non-tank just to see if it's doing taunting? Would you be applying this logic to every spell, including casting all the buff spells that had their cost reduced in combat just to see if THEY accidentally taunt?

Not necessarily. What I would expect to happen would be a report of "strange aggro issues on this run - see attached logs", then give the logs to the devs and let them parse those.


You're missing my point in the second part a bit. PLAYER tendency would be to assume PEBKAC when it comes to "fail tanks" and what not. But going beyond that, even if an issue is identified with Resto Treants taunting, code can be odd enough that the cause is pretty obscure. To the point that fixing it, especially if it crops up in the build right before patch is live, would be an affair of "Hmmm, patch now and hotfix later, or delay THE ENTIRE PATCH by one week?"

Substitute "disciplined" for "interesting", there. Delaying the patch would depend on how often the issues were being raised I would think.


If there was a bug in the code I work on that's on the order of "DBM sounds don't work, raiding is near impossible", the result would be 747s falling out of the sky. I very well could be a little over-sensitive to software testing issues...


I think you're being way too idealistic about the scope of testing for minor changes. When code is changed, you run through a test script that checks various aspects:
- Is the spell working
- Are the numbers correct
etc.,

There's not even remotely conceivably a test scenario that a company like Blizzard would write up for their internal tests that would be "Go cast this heal in combat to see if it taunts". And they're certainly not going to tear the patch inside out in testing every single build; testing is usually limited to reasonable affected aspects because there's no such thing as infinite time.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Fridmarr » Sat May 25, 2013 9:56 am

Well that test part isn't really accurate. It is definitely conceivable or even likely. Obviously this is just speculation, but it's also common industry practice. I wouldn't be surprised if blizzard has all sorts of tests that run when each build is created in a continuous integration type of environment. It's entirely possible that spells go through checks for their inputs and outputs to include aggro gain on mobs. I also suspect that they have a very comprehensive suite of regression tests (both automated and manual) that ideally any final build is going to be run through, which covers areas well beyond the scope of the last tweaks.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby benebarba » Sat May 25, 2013 11:50 am

Anyone else feel 'The Hordebreaker' title is, well, somewhat anticlimactic to get? I kind of expected that to take more than a bit of material farming and a couple scenarios.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Jabari » Sat May 25, 2013 12:04 pm

We're well off topic at this point, but I did want to respond to one particular part of this.

Darielle wrote:Why do you need to do it on tanks and self in combat? If you were out by the target dummies popping Treants on people's heads, you're testing scaling, use, etc. What would fathom you to go specifically test FoN in combat on a non-tank just to see if it's doing taunting?


The reason I would go try the Treants out on different things in combat is that it's a skill that's dependent on your spec, with all kinds of different possible effects. Remember, Bear Treants actually ARE SUPPOSED TO taunt the target. The code just got its "wires crossed" a bit. *shrug*

Same reason I'd test out the Balance Treants to make sure they're not healing (or taunting :P) anything, etc etc. I'd also immediately try having both specs with treants, casting Resto ones one fight, switch specs, then cast Balance ones the next fight. (To make sure the spell got re-bound properly.)

Darielle wrote:Would you be applying this logic to every spell, including casting all the buff spells that had their cost reduced in combat just to see if THEY accidentally taunt?

Of course not, that's a simple coefficient change, not a new or functionally changed spell.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby benebarba » Sat May 25, 2013 12:07 pm

did all the world spawn common kills get scaling HP? Or did I never notice it before on IoT?
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Klaudandus » Sat May 25, 2013 12:08 pm

benebarba wrote:Anyone else feel 'The Hordebreaker' title is, well, somewhat anticlimactic to get? I kind of expected that to take more than a bit of material farming and a couple scenarios.


Well... people got upset the title was more like Darkspear helper or something like it in the PTR.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Worldie » Sat May 25, 2013 4:57 pm

benebarba wrote:did all the world spawn common kills get scaling HP? Or did I never notice it before on IoT?

All rares and quest mobs on IoT have scaling HP.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby benebarba » Sat May 25, 2013 4:58 pm

Worldie wrote:
benebarba wrote:did all the world spawn common kills get scaling HP? Or did I never notice it before on IoT?

All rares and quest mobs on IoT have scaling HP.


going to have to file that in the missed memo files. *facepalm*
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby benebarba » Sat May 25, 2013 5:03 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
benebarba wrote:Anyone else feel 'The Hordebreaker' title is, well, somewhat anticlimactic to get? I kind of expected that to take more than a bit of material farming and a couple scenarios.


Well... people got upset the title was more like Darkspear helper or something like it in the PTR.


I also noticed the alliance seem to get an extra chat option with vol'jin, where we basically ask why *we* shouldn't just let them raid orgrimmar then mop up the leftovers... which I imagine rose from similar feelings (I recall only seeing the one option where vol'jin says he'd be happy to just let the alliance go first and mop up mentioned on WI a while back when they talked about the PTR quests).

All in all, since apparently the entire story of the patch can be seen in a day (with no real indications of anything else coming)... somewhat of a let down all around. And I feel like Garrosh is turning into a worse villain than Deathwing. At least Deathwing was still roving around lighting zones on fire right up to the raid patch. Garrosh seems to have disappeared, only to be replaced by really lamely characterized orc commanders (at least to my ally-only eyes) doing cheesy cartoon villain things.

please tell me I missed something. Please.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby halabar » Sat May 25, 2013 9:14 pm

econ21 wrote:
benebarba wrote:does anyone else have some serious lag in the updating/showing of objectives for the barrens stuff? Like I'll get the announcement that a caravan has tipped or a commander yelling, but nada on the map.


Haven't noticed a problem with commanders, but the fact that upturned caravans stopped showing up on my map totally soured me on the weekly. (I was doing it early in the morning, so no company to take down commanders but upturned caravans were gravy).


Im guessing it's CRZ issues. A lot of them are called out, 1 in 12 show up on the map.

Off and on today, managed to farm up 600+ of each item... done with the weekly for the following 3 weeks.
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