Patch 5.3 Notes

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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Darielle » Thu May 23, 2013 4:04 pm

Well, it sounds like the whole concept of "Public Test Realm" is a failure then. *shrug*

They need to make it private testing - whether that means completely in-house, or hiring players/guilds to do that work (yes, paying them) - either would be ok.

I mean, not finding something like "Resto Treants make healer's target take aggro" in 4 weeks of testing... This should have been very easy to see with just anyone running a 5-man.

Well, actually, the big one is the sound changes. Either that was a last-second addition with no testing (in which case the software devs/mgmt there are morons), or, I don't even know what to think if no "testers" caught the fact that no addons make any sounds any more.


To put it in a little more detail, you have to consider quite a few things:
- Was the bug even active on PTR? Some bugs are only introduced when the Live build happens.
- Was the bug even identified on PTR? It's not something that you would have come across if you went and did a 5-man and the Resto just used Treants on the tank, after all.
- If the bug was identified, was it even reported as "Resto Treants make healer's target take aggro"? Even in just the last 3 days, the reports included comments on Tricks, Misdirects, and other various weirdness. Beyond that, did people just shrug it off when it happened as "LOL someone did a HoP/HoF".
- If the bug was identified, and reported, can the cause be identified? Code does some odd things occasionally (and by occasionally, I mean all the time).
- If the bug was identified, and was not fixed, you have a choice of delaying the entire patch for one bug, or letting it go live. Well, shucks.
- If the bug wasn't identified, and all you have are various "THreat is being funny", are you really going to delay the patch for a vague report that you can't even identify because you're logically going to look for things like Salv, HoP, Tricks, MD, Taunts, etc., but it takes a fairly "interesting" testing process to go from knowing nothing to "Oh IT WAS RESTO FORCE OF NATURE".
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby oldboyz » Thu May 23, 2013 4:15 pm

sorry, my own commun sense do not tell me at all "how large is wow"
it is near 20 year i'm in software/pharma/banking IT world : there are much bigger and much more critical projects outside gaming world.
Those larger and more complex environment have much more less fail.


whatever
i do not care about bugs or about complainers
blizz is doing at best with minimal ressource. But if Blizz would be as serious as they claim to be, we would not see those lazy bug
whatever :mrgreen:
Last edited by oldboyz on Thu May 23, 2013 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 23, 2013 4:22 pm

Darielle nailed it.

A system as complex as WoW has an uncountable amount of combinations of things you would need to mechanically test in order to consider the code air tight before release. As long as the game is not bugsplatting and major things are not being red flagged internally as fucked up, then the burden lies on the player base and limited internal/ptr testing to reveal bugs in the game.

What is not caught by internal QA and prt efforts surfaces to live, is quickly identified and then fixed.

I mean, come on, we could have an open world like any of the elder scrolls games where bugs are frequently reported (and never fixed...)
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 23, 2013 5:02 pm

but some of the elder scroll bugs are awesome!

(and all the extra stuff you can do in it to customize it -- be it having lightning farron in a really skimpy outfit as the player, zoidberg crabs, macho man dragons, swords shaped as pinkie pie)
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Teranoid » Thu May 23, 2013 5:06 pm

Darielle wrote:
Well, it sounds like the whole concept of "Public Test Realm" is a failure then. *shrug*

They need to make it private testing - whether that means completely in-house, or hiring players/guilds to do that work (yes, paying them) - either would be ok.

I mean, not finding something like "Resto Treants make healer's target take aggro" in 4 weeks of testing... This should have been very easy to see with just anyone running a 5-man.

Well, actually, the big one is the sound changes. Either that was a last-second addition with no testing (in which case the software devs/mgmt there are morons), or, I don't even know what to think if no "testers" caught the fact that no addons make any sounds any more.


To put it in a little more detail, you have to consider quite a few things:
- Was the bug even active on PTR? Some bugs are only introduced when the Live build happens.
- Was the bug even identified on PTR? It's not something that you would have come across if you went and did a 5-man and the Resto just used Treants on the tank, after all.
- If the bug was identified, was it even reported as "Resto Treants make healer's target take aggro"? Even in just the last 3 days, the reports included comments on Tricks, Misdirects, and other various weirdness. Beyond that, did people just shrug it off when it happened as "LOL someone did a HoP/HoF".
- If the bug was identified, and reported, can the cause be identified? Code does some odd things occasionally (and by occasionally, I mean all the time).
- If the bug was identified, and was not fixed, you have a choice of delaying the entire patch for one bug, or letting it go live. Well, shucks.
- If the bug wasn't identified, and all you have are various "THreat is being funny", are you really going to delay the patch for a vague report that you can't even identify because you're logically going to look for things like Salv, HoP, Tricks, MD, Taunts, etc., but it takes a fairly "interesting" testing process to go from knowing nothing to "Oh IT WAS RESTO FORCE OF NATURE".


Of course not! They ran to the forums to complain about it!
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 23, 2013 5:11 pm

Klaudandus wrote:but some of the elder scroll bugs are awesome!

(and all the extra stuff you can do in it to customize it -- be it having lightning farron in a really skimpy outfit as the player, zoidberg crabs, macho man dragons, swords shaped as pinkie pie)



Oh I agree, some of them are fantastic.

I was bummed out, however, with that one patch that made dragons keep a minimum 300yd distance from you whenever they spawned.

They'd just hover there, just beyond reach of any weapons/abilities and no dragon souls were had :(
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Jabari » Thu May 23, 2013 5:23 pm

Darielle wrote:- Was the bug even active on PTR? Some bugs are only introduced when the Live build happens.

This is a failure of their CM system, then.

Darielle wrote:- Was the bug even identified on PTR? It's not something that you would have come across if you went and did a 5-man and the Resto just used Treants on the tank, after all.

Oh sure, but if that's all you did with it that's hardly "testing" the skill. *shrug* If I had the responsibility of testing the skill, I'd be trying it on all sorts of things. Tanks and self probably first - that would be quite a surprise when you cast it on yourself and the boss suddenly turned and stomped you! Then "does it work on hunter pets?" "Does it work on people not in party?" All kinds of things to try!

Darielle wrote:- If the bug was identified, was it even reported as "Resto Treants make healer's target take aggro"? Even in just the last 3 days, the reports included comments on Tricks, Misdirects, and other various weirdness. Beyond that, did people just shrug it off when it happened as "LOL someone did a HoP/HoF".
- If the bug was identified, and reported, can the cause be identified? Code does some odd things occasionally (and by occasionally, I mean all the time).

Not necessarily. What I would expect to happen would be a report of "strange aggro issues on this run - see attached logs", then give the logs to the devs and let them parse those.

Darielle wrote:- If the bug was identified, and was not fixed, you have a choice of delaying the entire patch for one bug, or letting it go live. Well, shucks.
- If the bug wasn't identified, and all you have are various "THreat is being funny", are you really going to delay the patch for a vague report that you can't even identify because you're logically going to look for things like Salv, HoP, Tricks, MD, Taunts, etc., but it takes a fairly "interesting" testing process to go from knowing nothing to "Oh IT WAS RESTO FORCE OF NATURE".

Substitute "disciplined" for "interesting", there. Delaying the patch would depend on how often the issues were being raised I would think.


If there was a bug in the code I work on that's on the order of "DBM sounds don't work, raiding is near impossible", the result would be 747s falling out of the sky. I very well could be a little over-sensitive to software testing issues... :lol:

Chunes wrote:then the burden lies on the player base and limited internal/ptr testing to reveal bugs in the game.


Somehow I don't think Boeing would ever sign a contract for software development that includes "customer is responsible for finding bugs." *chuckle*
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 23, 2013 6:15 pm

@jabari, you seem to think that they have a test scenario for every spell in every circumstance.

Mathematically, that's impossible. So stuff slips through the cracks.

The boeing comment is a pretty bad strawman if you're really trying to debate this, nobody's going to die from a bug in wow.

If you're just being sarcastic, then I take your point.

;)
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Sagara » Thu May 23, 2013 10:17 pm

I'm just done reading the hotfix notes - usual stuff, nothing major.
I drop on this thread, and it was almost like Blizzard was drowning baby kitten and responsible for 9/11.

Seriously? Sense of scale?
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Fri May 24, 2013 5:47 am

Nobody has any sense of scale in this game.

Every change to your class is a direct assault, a proverbial SLAP IN THE FACE.

Every bug is so blatantly obvious that it's unthinkable how those lazy devs could have missed it.

Every bug is also so ridiculously serious that people are just gobsmacked that this patch was ever allowed to hit live servers.

/s off

There is a reason I usually am an apologist on behalf of the dev team.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri May 24, 2013 6:38 am

I was skeptical about buffs to Enhancement in this patch because at first I didn't think we needed them. Then as the tier went on the gap between my sustained dps and my burst dps kept getting bigger, and by Tuesday I kind of understood the need to buff our base attacks.

Now that the patch is live, my sustained dps is much better, but my burst is ridiculous (350k dps single target, without full buffs and before upgrades and meta gem), and I'm looking at it as wrong from the completely opposite direction.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Fri May 24, 2013 7:24 am

Wonder what that translates to with the new pvp changes.

Enh shaman comps (at least in 2's for me and my partner) were always a matter of "ok... do what you can to survive the first 10 seconds, then if we're stable, go for the counter kill"

If the burst is even greater than it was before, then I'd say Enh + Frost mage or enh + kitty/rogue will be pretty terrifying to face for a while.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby benebarba » Fri May 24, 2013 11:10 am

Jabari wrote:Somehow I don't think Boeing would ever sign a contract for software development that includes "customer is responsible for finding bugs." *chuckle*


You mean like the issues with their APU batteries overheating/catching fire in the brand spanking new (and very late) 787? Or Toyota and the unintended acceleration reports?

Yep. Them 'real companies' sure never have major safety issues/problems in the field that 'should have' been identified in the pre-release process.


;)

let's never bring up this strawman, K? It's worse than a slashdot car analogy.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 24, 2013 11:20 am

benebarba wrote:
Jabari wrote:Somehow I don't think Boeing would ever sign a contract for software development that includes "customer is responsible for finding bugs." *chuckle*


You mean like the issues with their APU batteries overheating/catching fire in the brand spanking new (and very late) 787? Or Toyota and the unintended acceleration reports?

Yep. Them 'real companies' sure never have major safety issues/problems in the field that 'should have' been identified in the pre-release process.


;)

let's never bring up this strawman, K? It's worse than a slashdot car analogy.


For the record, the electrical issues plaguing the dreamliner were known from the time they were doing test flights. It caused one to make an emergency landing at the local airport years ago.

Just saying...
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 24, 2013 11:32 am

benebarba wrote:let's never bring up this strawman, K? It's worse than a slashdot car analogy.


Well to be fair, it's actually your analogies that are the straw man, since he is not suggesting that "real companies" produce bug free code. He was responding to the statement that "the burden lies on the player base", which is not accurate.  The analogy he made is actually fair, though a bit extreme.
 
Blizz and many other companies use the player base (public testing) as a source of help, but the responsibility belongs to the dev team. Sometimes bugs make it through that "should not".
I don't know a devloper/QA person anywhere that would suggest otherwise, however without knowing the details of these bugs it really is quite difficult to speculate whether or not these fall into that category.

Bugs are annoying, but given the product and how effective it has been for a very long time, it's hard to argue that the development effort isn't very high quality.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Sagara » Fri May 24, 2013 11:52 am

The real story is that players are but an extra layer that devs and QA's have discovered is good to root out bugs simply by the power of their sheer mass - players on a PTR generate a fuckton of data.

Which reminds me, wasn't there a number of bugs found/solved on WoW that floated a couple months ago that was riding in the multiple millions?

EDIT: Found Only 180 000 bugs by 17th september 2009. All in all, nothing to sneeze at.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby benebarba » Fri May 24, 2013 12:19 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
benebarba wrote:let's never bring up this strawman, K? It's worse than a slashdot car analogy.


Well to be fair, it's actually your analogies that are the straw man, since he is not suggesting that "real companies" produce bug free code. He was responding to the statement that "the burden lies on the player base", which is not accurate. The analogy he made is actually fair, though a bit extreme.

Blizz and many other companies use the player base (public testing) as a source of help, but the responsibility belongs to the dev team. Sometimes bugs make it through that "should not".
I don't know a devloper/QA person anywhere that would suggest otherwise, however without knowing the details of these bugs it really is quite difficult to speculate whether or not these fall into that category.

Bugs are annoying, but given the product and how effective it has been for a very long time, it's hard to argue that the development effort isn't very high quality.


Actually - upon re-reading his post... my comments are worse than a strawman: they are completely irrelevant.

Anyway... Back to 5.3:

does anyone else have some serious lag in the updating/showing of objectives for the barrens stuff? Like I'll get the announcement that a caravan has tipped or a commander yelling, but nada on the map. Usually the marks don't seem to appear for the commanders until they've been up for several minutes, and remain long after dead. If they didn't show up at all, I'd think it was one of the known issues... but this seems somewhat different.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 24, 2013 12:24 pm

Sagara wrote:The real story is that players are but an extra layer that devs and QA's have discovered is good to root out bugs simply by the power of their sheer mass - players on a PTR generate a fuckton of data.

Which reminds me, wasn't there a number of bugs found/solved on WoW that floated a couple months ago that was riding in the multiple millions?

EDIT: Found Only 180 000 bugs by 17th september 2009. All in all, nothing to sneeze at.


Indeed there's no really great substitute for that sort of testing.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby benebarba » Fri May 24, 2013 12:39 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Sagara wrote:The real story is that players are but an extra layer that devs and QA's have discovered is good to root out bugs simply by the power of their sheer mass - players on a PTR generate a fuckton of data.

Which reminds me, wasn't there a number of bugs found/solved on WoW that floated a couple months ago that was riding in the multiple millions?

EDIT: Found Only 180 000 bugs by 17th september 2009. All in all, nothing to sneeze at.


Indeed there's no really great substitute for that sort of testing.


Oh, and don't forget: they do it *for free*. Perfect system? nope - but a tough one to beat.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby econ21 » Fri May 24, 2013 3:03 pm

benebarba wrote:does anyone else have some serious lag in the updating/showing of objectives for the barrens stuff? Like I'll get the announcement that a caravan has tipped or a commander yelling, but nada on the map.


Haven't noticed a problem with commanders, but the fact that upturned caravans stopped showing up on my map totally soured me on the weekly. (I was doing it early in the morning, so no company to take down commanders but upturned caravans were gravy).
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Darielle » Sat May 25, 2013 9:14 am

This is a failure of their CM system, then.


On the other hand, what we do see on the PTR as the final build isn't necessarily the final build that is pushed to live, not accounting for the various hotfixes that need to be applied within hours. So whether something's introduced in final stages doesn't realllly have to be content management related.

Oh sure, but if that's all you did with it that's hardly "testing" the skill. *shrug* If I had the responsibility of testing the skill, I'd be trying it on all sorts of things. Tanks and self probably first - that would be quite a surprise when you cast it on yourself and the boss suddenly turned and stomped you! Then "does it work on hunter pets?" "Does it work on people not in party?" All kinds of things to try!


Why do you need to do it on tanks and self in combat? If you were out by the target dummies popping Treants on people's heads, you're testing scaling, use, etc. What would fathom you to go specifically test FoN in combat on a non-tank just to see if it's doing taunting? Would you be applying this logic to every spell, including casting all the buff spells that had their cost reduced in combat just to see if THEY accidentally taunt?

Not necessarily. What I would expect to happen would be a report of "strange aggro issues on this run - see attached logs", then give the logs to the devs and let them parse those.


You're missing my point in the second part a bit. PLAYER tendency would be to assume PEBKAC when it comes to "fail tanks" and what not. But going beyond that, even if an issue is identified with Resto Treants taunting, code can be odd enough that the cause is pretty obscure. To the point that fixing it, especially if it crops up in the build right before patch is live, would be an affair of "Hmmm, patch now and hotfix later, or delay THE ENTIRE PATCH by one week?"

Substitute "disciplined" for "interesting", there. Delaying the patch would depend on how often the issues were being raised I would think.


If there was a bug in the code I work on that's on the order of "DBM sounds don't work, raiding is near impossible", the result would be 747s falling out of the sky. I very well could be a little over-sensitive to software testing issues...


I think you're being way too idealistic about the scope of testing for minor changes. When code is changed, you run through a test script that checks various aspects:
- Is the spell working
- Are the numbers correct
etc.,

There's not even remotely conceivably a test scenario that a company like Blizzard would write up for their internal tests that would be "Go cast this heal in combat to see if it taunts". And they're certainly not going to tear the patch inside out in testing every single build; testing is usually limited to reasonable affected aspects because there's no such thing as infinite time.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Fridmarr » Sat May 25, 2013 9:56 am

Well that test part isn't really accurate. It is definitely conceivable or even likely. Obviously this is just speculation, but it's also common industry practice. I wouldn't be surprised if blizzard has all sorts of tests that run when each build is created in a continuous integration type of environment. It's entirely possible that spells go through checks for their inputs and outputs to include aggro gain on mobs. I also suspect that they have a very comprehensive suite of regression tests (both automated and manual) that ideally any final build is going to be run through, which covers areas well beyond the scope of the last tweaks.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby benebarba » Sat May 25, 2013 11:50 am

Anyone else feel 'The Hordebreaker' title is, well, somewhat anticlimactic to get? I kind of expected that to take more than a bit of material farming and a couple scenarios.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Jabari » Sat May 25, 2013 12:04 pm

We're well off topic at this point, but I did want to respond to one particular part of this.

Darielle wrote:Why do you need to do it on tanks and self in combat? If you were out by the target dummies popping Treants on people's heads, you're testing scaling, use, etc. What would fathom you to go specifically test FoN in combat on a non-tank just to see if it's doing taunting?


The reason I would go try the Treants out on different things in combat is that it's a skill that's dependent on your spec, with all kinds of different possible effects. Remember, Bear Treants actually ARE SUPPOSED TO taunt the target. The code just got its "wires crossed" a bit. *shrug*

Same reason I'd test out the Balance Treants to make sure they're not healing (or taunting :P) anything, etc etc. I'd also immediately try having both specs with treants, casting Resto ones one fight, switch specs, then cast Balance ones the next fight. (To make sure the spell got re-bound properly.)

Darielle wrote:Would you be applying this logic to every spell, including casting all the buff spells that had their cost reduced in combat just to see if THEY accidentally taunt?

Of course not, that's a simple coefficient change, not a new or functionally changed spell.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby benebarba » Sat May 25, 2013 12:07 pm

did all the world spawn common kills get scaling HP? Or did I never notice it before on IoT?
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