Patch 5.3 Notes

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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Taeron » Thu May 23, 2013 2:24 am

Do these changes affect our approach to certain bosses we used to one tank, for example, do we need to go to Horridon HC switching on stacks or will I do just fine soaking up stacks and clearing them up as before?
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Worldie » Thu May 23, 2013 3:38 am

Our Prot pala on Horridon Hc just did same as usual.
He also died when he forgot a shor :mrgreen:
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby benebarba » Thu May 23, 2013 6:03 am

Jabari wrote:(Again, WTF is with the test realm. Isn't it meant to actually, like, test things?)


small pool, and not everyone is actually there to make the game better, I'd wager, let alone be experienced software testers... most just want to play early to get a leg up in other stuff.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu May 23, 2013 6:22 am

If there's no new raid tier they don't get the raid guilds into the test realm doing lots of group stuff.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Jabari » Thu May 23, 2013 9:54 am

Well, it sounds like the whole concept of "Public Test Realm" is a failure then. *shrug*

They need to make it private testing - whether that means completely in-house, or hiring players/guilds to do that work (yes, paying them) - either would be ok.

I mean, not finding something like "Resto Treants make healer's target take aggro" in 4 weeks of testing... This should have been very easy to see with just anyone running a 5-man.

Well, actually, the big one is the sound changes. Either that was a last-second addition with no testing (in which case the software devs/mgmt there are morons), or, I don't even know what to think if no "testers" caught the fact that no addons make any sounds any more.


(As an aside: Blink Strikes is causing some weirdness. Have gotten a few mobs "stuck" in the middle of environment objects when the pet blinked seemingly "into the middle of a table" - the mob then turns to move/hit it and also gets stuck in the middle of the table. Unattackable at that point of course - was lucky in the scenarios it happened in that everyone could run away and then die to reset it.)
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Teranoid » Thu May 23, 2013 10:34 am

This is the part where anyone with common sense realizes how large this game is and laughs at you for being so ignorant.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 23, 2013 10:38 am

Teranoid wrote:This is the part where anyone with common sense realizes how large this game is and laughs at you for being so ignorant.



Haha I wasn't going to say it that bluntly, but basically this.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby halabar » Thu May 23, 2013 11:42 am

Teranoid wrote:This is the part where anyone with common sense realizes how large this game is and laughs at you for being so ignorant.


Yes, because the PTR is SOOOO successful at uncovering issues. :roll:

I wouldn't make it private, but incentivizing players beyond the HC raiders to test would help a lot. Especially mid-expansion, am I going to go try to find broken stuff on PTR, or work on current content? Easy choice.

The PTR's primary value now when not raid testing is softening the blow of incoming nerfs (and to feed the dataminers).
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby oldboyz » Thu May 23, 2013 11:45 am

Teranoid wrote:This is the part where anyone with common sense realizes how large this game is and laughs at you for being so ignorant.


unless you have some IRL experience with IT project and you have some more than just "commun sense"

and then laughs become even bigger at you for being so ridiculus whith you stupid comment...

have a good day :mrgreen:


PS. teranoid, don't be an asshole, it may avoid you even more sarcastic comment
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Teranoid » Thu May 23, 2013 12:08 pm

oldboyz wrote:
Teranoid wrote:This is the part where anyone with common sense realizes how large this game is and laughs at you for being so ignorant.


unless you have some IRL experience with IT project and you have some more than just "commun sense"

and then laughs become even bigger at you for being so ridiculus whith you stupid comment...

have a good day :mrgreen:


PS. teranoid, don't be an asshole, it may avoid you even more sarcastic comment


Can I get a translator?

The most comical part of all of this is the people that complain about the PTR not fixing anything probably never spent more than 5 minutes on it nor ever reported a single issue that didn't consist of "boo hoo BM nerfed my class sucks"
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Flex » Thu May 23, 2013 12:49 pm

Teranoid wrote:Can I get a translator?

The most comical part of all of this is the people that complain about the PTR not fixing anything probably never spent more than 5 minutes on it nor ever reported a single issue that didn't consist of "boo hoo BM nerfed my class sucks"


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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 23, 2013 1:13 pm

It's not like they fix things even when you report them and tested them for hours and hours. *cough* All the theorycraft in the beta *cough*
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Newsom » Thu May 23, 2013 1:44 pm

Unless there's a new raid to test, the PTR gets very little action. At least they've become a lot quicker at hotfixing bugs.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Jabari » Thu May 23, 2013 2:01 pm

Teranoid wrote:Can I get a translator?

Sure.

"How much software development experience do you have, exactly?"


Edit:
@Chunes: Why, specifically?
Last edited by Jabari on Thu May 23, 2013 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 23, 2013 2:09 pm

I've been in the software game for about 6 years now.

Teranoid's comment rang true to me

:/
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Darielle » Thu May 23, 2013 4:04 pm

Well, it sounds like the whole concept of "Public Test Realm" is a failure then. *shrug*

They need to make it private testing - whether that means completely in-house, or hiring players/guilds to do that work (yes, paying them) - either would be ok.

I mean, not finding something like "Resto Treants make healer's target take aggro" in 4 weeks of testing... This should have been very easy to see with just anyone running a 5-man.

Well, actually, the big one is the sound changes. Either that was a last-second addition with no testing (in which case the software devs/mgmt there are morons), or, I don't even know what to think if no "testers" caught the fact that no addons make any sounds any more.


To put it in a little more detail, you have to consider quite a few things:
- Was the bug even active on PTR? Some bugs are only introduced when the Live build happens.
- Was the bug even identified on PTR? It's not something that you would have come across if you went and did a 5-man and the Resto just used Treants on the tank, after all.
- If the bug was identified, was it even reported as "Resto Treants make healer's target take aggro"? Even in just the last 3 days, the reports included comments on Tricks, Misdirects, and other various weirdness. Beyond that, did people just shrug it off when it happened as "LOL someone did a HoP/HoF".
- If the bug was identified, and reported, can the cause be identified? Code does some odd things occasionally (and by occasionally, I mean all the time).
- If the bug was identified, and was not fixed, you have a choice of delaying the entire patch for one bug, or letting it go live. Well, shucks.
- If the bug wasn't identified, and all you have are various "THreat is being funny", are you really going to delay the patch for a vague report that you can't even identify because you're logically going to look for things like Salv, HoP, Tricks, MD, Taunts, etc., but it takes a fairly "interesting" testing process to go from knowing nothing to "Oh IT WAS RESTO FORCE OF NATURE".
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby oldboyz » Thu May 23, 2013 4:15 pm

sorry, my own commun sense do not tell me at all "how large is wow"
it is near 20 year i'm in software/pharma/banking IT world : there are much bigger and much more critical projects outside gaming world.
Those larger and more complex environment have much more less fail.


whatever
i do not care about bugs or about complainers
blizz is doing at best with minimal ressource. But if Blizz would be as serious as they claim to be, we would not see those lazy bug
whatever :mrgreen:
Last edited by oldboyz on Thu May 23, 2013 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 23, 2013 4:22 pm

Darielle nailed it.

A system as complex as WoW has an uncountable amount of combinations of things you would need to mechanically test in order to consider the code air tight before release. As long as the game is not bugsplatting and major things are not being red flagged internally as fucked up, then the burden lies on the player base and limited internal/ptr testing to reveal bugs in the game.

What is not caught by internal QA and prt efforts surfaces to live, is quickly identified and then fixed.

I mean, come on, we could have an open world like any of the elder scrolls games where bugs are frequently reported (and never fixed...)
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 23, 2013 5:02 pm

but some of the elder scroll bugs are awesome!

(and all the extra stuff you can do in it to customize it -- be it having lightning farron in a really skimpy outfit as the player, zoidberg crabs, macho man dragons, swords shaped as pinkie pie)
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Teranoid » Thu May 23, 2013 5:06 pm

Darielle wrote:
Well, it sounds like the whole concept of "Public Test Realm" is a failure then. *shrug*

They need to make it private testing - whether that means completely in-house, or hiring players/guilds to do that work (yes, paying them) - either would be ok.

I mean, not finding something like "Resto Treants make healer's target take aggro" in 4 weeks of testing... This should have been very easy to see with just anyone running a 5-man.

Well, actually, the big one is the sound changes. Either that was a last-second addition with no testing (in which case the software devs/mgmt there are morons), or, I don't even know what to think if no "testers" caught the fact that no addons make any sounds any more.


To put it in a little more detail, you have to consider quite a few things:
- Was the bug even active on PTR? Some bugs are only introduced when the Live build happens.
- Was the bug even identified on PTR? It's not something that you would have come across if you went and did a 5-man and the Resto just used Treants on the tank, after all.
- If the bug was identified, was it even reported as "Resto Treants make healer's target take aggro"? Even in just the last 3 days, the reports included comments on Tricks, Misdirects, and other various weirdness. Beyond that, did people just shrug it off when it happened as "LOL someone did a HoP/HoF".
- If the bug was identified, and reported, can the cause be identified? Code does some odd things occasionally (and by occasionally, I mean all the time).
- If the bug was identified, and was not fixed, you have a choice of delaying the entire patch for one bug, or letting it go live. Well, shucks.
- If the bug wasn't identified, and all you have are various "THreat is being funny", are you really going to delay the patch for a vague report that you can't even identify because you're logically going to look for things like Salv, HoP, Tricks, MD, Taunts, etc., but it takes a fairly "interesting" testing process to go from knowing nothing to "Oh IT WAS RESTO FORCE OF NATURE".


Of course not! They ran to the forums to complain about it!
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 23, 2013 5:11 pm

Klaudandus wrote:but some of the elder scroll bugs are awesome!

(and all the extra stuff you can do in it to customize it -- be it having lightning farron in a really skimpy outfit as the player, zoidberg crabs, macho man dragons, swords shaped as pinkie pie)



Oh I agree, some of them are fantastic.

I was bummed out, however, with that one patch that made dragons keep a minimum 300yd distance from you whenever they spawned.

They'd just hover there, just beyond reach of any weapons/abilities and no dragon souls were had :(
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Jabari » Thu May 23, 2013 5:23 pm

Darielle wrote:- Was the bug even active on PTR? Some bugs are only introduced when the Live build happens.

This is a failure of their CM system, then.

Darielle wrote:- Was the bug even identified on PTR? It's not something that you would have come across if you went and did a 5-man and the Resto just used Treants on the tank, after all.

Oh sure, but if that's all you did with it that's hardly "testing" the skill. *shrug* If I had the responsibility of testing the skill, I'd be trying it on all sorts of things. Tanks and self probably first - that would be quite a surprise when you cast it on yourself and the boss suddenly turned and stomped you! Then "does it work on hunter pets?" "Does it work on people not in party?" All kinds of things to try!

Darielle wrote:- If the bug was identified, was it even reported as "Resto Treants make healer's target take aggro"? Even in just the last 3 days, the reports included comments on Tricks, Misdirects, and other various weirdness. Beyond that, did people just shrug it off when it happened as "LOL someone did a HoP/HoF".
- If the bug was identified, and reported, can the cause be identified? Code does some odd things occasionally (and by occasionally, I mean all the time).

Not necessarily. What I would expect to happen would be a report of "strange aggro issues on this run - see attached logs", then give the logs to the devs and let them parse those.

Darielle wrote:- If the bug was identified, and was not fixed, you have a choice of delaying the entire patch for one bug, or letting it go live. Well, shucks.
- If the bug wasn't identified, and all you have are various "THreat is being funny", are you really going to delay the patch for a vague report that you can't even identify because you're logically going to look for things like Salv, HoP, Tricks, MD, Taunts, etc., but it takes a fairly "interesting" testing process to go from knowing nothing to "Oh IT WAS RESTO FORCE OF NATURE".

Substitute "disciplined" for "interesting", there. Delaying the patch would depend on how often the issues were being raised I would think.


If there was a bug in the code I work on that's on the order of "DBM sounds don't work, raiding is near impossible", the result would be 747s falling out of the sky. I very well could be a little over-sensitive to software testing issues... :lol:

Chunes wrote:then the burden lies on the player base and limited internal/ptr testing to reveal bugs in the game.


Somehow I don't think Boeing would ever sign a contract for software development that includes "customer is responsible for finding bugs." *chuckle*
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 23, 2013 6:15 pm

@jabari, you seem to think that they have a test scenario for every spell in every circumstance.

Mathematically, that's impossible. So stuff slips through the cracks.

The boeing comment is a pretty bad strawman if you're really trying to debate this, nobody's going to die from a bug in wow.

If you're just being sarcastic, then I take your point.

;)
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Sagara » Thu May 23, 2013 10:17 pm

I'm just done reading the hotfix notes - usual stuff, nothing major.
I drop on this thread, and it was almost like Blizzard was drowning baby kitten and responsible for 9/11.

Seriously? Sense of scale?
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Fri May 24, 2013 5:47 am

Nobody has any sense of scale in this game.

Every change to your class is a direct assault, a proverbial SLAP IN THE FACE.

Every bug is so blatantly obvious that it's unthinkable how those lazy devs could have missed it.

Every bug is also so ridiculously serious that people are just gobsmacked that this patch was ever allowed to hit live servers.

/s off

There is a reason I usually am an apologist on behalf of the dev team.
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