Patch 5.3 Notes

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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Flex » Thu May 16, 2013 12:56 pm

Chunes wrote:whereas other ranged in pvp can be interrupted, gripped and stunned etc.


Hunters are a melee class that just happens to use ranged weapons.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Flex » Thu May 16, 2013 12:58 pm

Jabari wrote:They're going to forget to reduce the pet CD on half the "PvE stuff". All the group buffs and PvE debuffs fall into this, and there are so many different names/spells (because of different "pet flavor")... *sigh*


Group buffs already have a longer duration than their cooldown right? Debuffs are fine if it is not up for a few seconds.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Paxen » Thu May 16, 2013 1:02 pm

Flex wrote:Hunters are a melee class...


...which can't be gripped away from their target or kited, right?


edit: Woops, quote was messed up.
Last edited by Paxen on Fri May 17, 2013 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Worldie » Thu May 16, 2013 1:23 pm

theckhd wrote:Clearly you need a new macro:
/sit

I would imagine getting a melee crit nowadays gets you 1shot or almost 1shot from the bosses... no?
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby bldavis » Thu May 16, 2013 1:26 pm

Flex wrote:
Chunes wrote:whereas other ranged in pvp can be interrupted, gripped and stunned etc.


Hunters are a melee class that just happens to use ranged weapons.

hey have some cast time abilities....

cobra shot counts...
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby halabar » Thu May 16, 2013 1:32 pm

Flex wrote:
Jabari wrote:They're going to forget to reduce the pet CD on half the "PvE stuff". All the group buffs and PvE debuffs fall into this, and there are so many different names/spells (because of different "pet flavor")... *sigh*


Group buffs already have a longer duration than their cooldown right? Debuffs are fine if it is not up for a few seconds.


The debuffs like Gore should be ok (10 second cooldown, 30 second uptime), and the group buffs are ok, provided there aren't side effects from the exotic nerf (Terrifying Roar, 45 second cooldown, 1 minute uptime).

The ones that are in danger are the ones like the Spirit Heal, which supposedly was going to be fixed, but it's not in the patch notes. If that doesn't get fixed, Spirit Beasts will be seen a lot less.

The real hit for BM will be with target switching, since the pets will not able able to apply the target specific special abilities as frequently.

I do wonder what the side effect for pets will be for focus generation, since the specials will be cast 30% less often for the ones you would want on auto-cast.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby halabar » Thu May 16, 2013 1:34 pm

Chunes wrote:Well, BM is *fucking obnoxious* in pvp, so I'm ok with them getting hit. The amount of CC they bring with the right pets in addition to that STUPID FUCKING STAMPEDE is a little over the top.

Hunters are already an "ignore" target for my group (HPal + 2hFrostDK / War/DK/MW Monk) because you can't really do much to lock them out of their DPS skills outside of stuns, whereas other ranged in pvp can be interrupted, gripped and stunned etc.

I think it's fair they come down a bit in terms of what they bring to the table.


Get your PVP nerfs out of my PVE... :?
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby bldavis » Thu May 16, 2013 1:38 pm

hal...we play wow
something OP in PVP = bottom of charts in PVE in next patch
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
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Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 16, 2013 1:40 pm

Your quote code got chopped weird Pax, Flex said that, not me.

But if you've ever tried to stick on a hunter, you know that it's pretty much a lost cause for melee.

For the sake of argument though, let's go through a hypothetical 2's match healer+hunter vs. healer+DK and see how it plays out using only hunter and DK abilities. Hunter is assumed to be using a shale spider.

Hunter gets in attack range, starts dpsing
DK applies diseases @ range and grips, lands an auto and an oblit
Hunter has some choices, for now, he uses pet stun
DK does not trinket yet, no point with hunter still at 80%+ hp
Hunter runs while DK is waiting, drops frost trap (still doing full DPS rotation)
DK AMS's trap and chains hunter, starts to close gap
Stampede probably happens here
DK finally gets in attack range (his healer is working his ass off still, hunter healer is sleeping)
Hunter Disegages, DK is immobilized yet again
DK trinks this one, grip is probably close to up by now. let's say it is, he uses it
DK starts wailing on hunter
Hunter scatters, gets a little range (DR's by this point make the disengage pretty quick, but it's enough to get out of melee range
DK has started HB spamming at this point since he is rarely able to get oblits off anyway
Hunter healer is groggy, but somewhat interested, DK healer's fingers are getting blisters
Hunter drops another trap, DK AMS's
Shale spider stuns again, DR's are short but it still stuns for a sec
DK is chaining his ass off, trying to get this fucking hunter hurting
Stars align, hunter is out of CC, Killing machine is procced, Fallen crusader is procced, FUCK IT WE'LL DO IT LIVE
DK grips, pops pillar, ghoul and pvp trinket

aaaaaannnnnnnnddddddd deterrence.

JK a good DK would bait the deterrence then go for the kill

Meanwhile DK has used asphyx to try and lock down hunter's healer and is praying for KM procs, only for the hunter to shalestun/conc/disengage/etc. out of range yet again.


There's a lot of sarcasm in here, but hunters do stupid DPS and have stupid control in battle. DK's have stupid damage and reasonable control in battle (i'd argue that UH is borderline stupid if you go asphyx/aoe freeze talent, but not many do, preferring desecrate for 2nd trinket effect.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 16, 2013 1:47 pm

bldavis wrote:hal...we play wow
something OP in PVP = bottom of charts in PVE in next patch


Unless you play mage :o
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby theckhd » Thu May 16, 2013 2:07 pm

Worldie wrote:
theckhd wrote:Clearly you need a new macro:
/sit

I would imagine getting a melee crit nowadays gets you 1shot or almost 1shot from the bosses... no?

With SotR up, it's no different than an unmitigated melee. But with double Vengeance.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Fenrìr » Fri May 17, 2013 2:51 am

Fenris wrote:
halabar wrote:
Fenris wrote:Anyway

*insert personal rant*

I hope they'll go and look at tanks damage balance before changing vengeance...I'm getting kind of tired of my co-tank monk doing 1/3 more dps than me

And as much as my 3 top skill with keg smash alone.

On single target

And now doing heroic it's getting even more frustrating & also becoming a problem....


Of course you do realize it's Monk QQ that is causing the current pally nerfs, right?

Which ones,i've seen everyone complaining about everything lately

(and yes,i see the irony)



It is fairly amusing to see the people crying about paladins being able to solo tank yet here they are doing double our dps without breaking a sweat.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby bldavis » Fri May 17, 2013 3:16 am

release candidate on ptr...any bets on when we will see the patch?
*puts 150g on this next week, and 50 on the next week* (that would be the 21/22 or the 28/29)
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
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Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Sagara » Fri May 17, 2013 3:23 am

I find it even more amusing when they throw up in arms when anyone mentions that selfsame DPS trouble. What's good for the goose...

But the basic trouble is true - our AM scales insanely well with higher damage intake, compared to other tanks. Anyone can pull some insane tricks with good AM management, but ours can reach stupid extremes. People focus a lot on DS, but it's just a) possible to replicate with HoP , b) Is just a way to actually amplify ShotR's awesomeness.

Calling it: ShotR will eventually have an absolute (non-%) cap based off AP and Mastery. If they're honest, they'll at least up our damage by a truckload to compensate.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Fenrìr » Fri May 17, 2013 4:19 am

Even with good timing of SoTR, our monk takes less dmg than I and does more dps...to me, that's redonkulous.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Sagara » Fri May 17, 2013 5:00 am

First thing first, our ShotR does extremely well only against powerful attacks, so, sure, our TDR is average at best, but like Theck loves to hammer, WHEN it matters (the big spike), it's huge. It should be no small wonder that the worst offenders are bosses that throw humongous physical damage (Horridon, Durumu, Ji-kun and Primordius and Tortos to a lesser extend). That's what people are complaining about - not the TDR, but just how massive our control can be if wielded well.

Second, don't forget that we're second only to DK's in the self-healing department. I'm always top in the Healing & Damage Taken listings, but don't forget that (no kidding) 45% of that healing is SS and SoI.

Don't get blinded by TDR, because this is not what makes a powerful tank. It's spike management, and we reign supreme in that department.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 17, 2013 5:19 am

Sagara wrote: That's what people are complaining about - not the TDR, but just how massive our control can be if wielded well.


There is something so deliciously ironic about that, seeing as what we were all told (all the tank classes) was that Active Mitigation was where the future was.

It just happens that ours can be really powerful under certain conditions.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby theckhd » Fri May 17, 2013 5:35 am

Sagara wrote:Calling it: ShotR will eventually have an absolute (non-%) cap based off AP and Mastery. If they're honest, they'll at least up our damage by a truckload to compensate.

That would sort of miss the point. AM is supposed to scale as a percent so it's equally useful on all formats and difficulty levels. Shield Block, Savage Defense (dodge), and Stagger work the same way, and in theory Vengeance AP conversions do the same for Shield Barrier, WoG, and other non-%-based AM effects.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Sagara » Fri May 17, 2013 6:02 am

Well, I don't see the nerf to the ShotR baseline really helping much. Yeah, spikes will be a bit spikier, but that's nothing to the JRPG-hair levels of spikiness our fellow tanks suffer.

EDIT: just re-read myself and had to shout out: *SPIIIIIIIIIIKE!* Sorry.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby theckhd » Fri May 17, 2013 6:09 am

I think the SotR nerf has two reasons behind it:
1) They didn't expect us to stack haste as much as we have. Thus our SotR uptime and control is better now than they expected it to be at this point. Nerfing the magnitude probably brings it back into line with their expectations (both in a TDR sense, and in a controllable burst mitigation sense).

2) The extra baseline mitigation mattered a lot when tanks were stepping into MSV or HoF fairly undergeared for the content, and thus missing a lot of mastery. The baseline value gives them a buffer. Tanks that step into MSV nowadays generally have gone through LFR or gotten a little crafted gear, so that buffer is less important. They can reduce it now without significantly affecting the player base. It also adds a little more incentive to stack mastery rather than haste.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Sagara » Fri May 17, 2013 6:26 am

More than the reasoning, I'm wondering about the magnitude of the nerf's effect.

It's still napkin math and guesstimating, but I don't see us suddenly stop rocking hard on massive physical spikes. (*Spiiiiiiiiiiiike!*) It feels more like they're trying to keep us under control for the final raid while working on a new iteration in the background (possibly 6.0?)
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby halabar » Fri May 17, 2013 7:40 am

Still no Blue explaining exactly what they are doing with hunters, when they are further neutering BM utility while saying hunter specs need more distinction.. umm...

Also, latest build on the PTR is marked as Release.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Flex » Fri May 17, 2013 10:14 am

halabar wrote:Still no Blue explaining exactly what they are doing with hunters, when they are further neutering BM utility while saying hunter specs need more distinction.. umm...


Are you intentionally ignoring the reasons why they're changing BM pet utility because you don't like the answer?
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby halabar » Fri May 17, 2013 10:43 am

Flex wrote:
halabar wrote:Still no Blue explaining exactly what they are doing with hunters, when they are further neutering BM utility while saying hunter specs need more distinction.. umm...


Are you intentionally ignoring the reasons why they're changing BM pet utility because you don't like the answer?


You mean the OMGHUNTERSARESOOPQQQQ?

The Blues have not said much about it, other than that they are making the changes, or if BM will get something back for PVE to compensate for the utility loss.
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Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Nooska » Fri May 17, 2013 10:50 am

I feel confident ignoreing the "BM is too powerful in PvP" argument, because if that was the norm, there would have been loads of nerfs in general over time to other specs as well (and buffs for BM pre 5.0).

That said, I think it is odd the way they are going about it, by nerfing an iconic BM difference (the lowered CDs on pet specials) from the other specs. By all means, if CC is too easily used (too low a CD) up the CD, but don't remove the CD reduction for BM. Doubling the CD hurts the other specs just as much anyway, and they weren't "OP in PvP".

I find it odd too that while talking about needing difference between specs (yes it was mostly mentioned in regards to rogues, but as a general principle) they are cutting down ion the distinguishing features of hunter specs.

Not that I'm bothered either way, I've done all the PvP achievements I needed to do on Nooska - and these days I think I would go with my shadowpriest for PvP if I actually played (I'm still paying, just not playing).
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