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What's up with T15?

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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:44 am

It's the model blizzard is following this expac and people need to realize that.

If people are complaining they can't do a boss because of gear and the boss needs a nerf...especially the second boss...I'm sorry, but you need to step back and do T14 a few more weeks.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Flex » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:45 am

Normal mode raiding should not be balanced around having to do the LFR version of that raid.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Flex » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:46 am

Fenrìr wrote:It's the model blizzard is following this expac and people need to realize that.

If people are complaining they can't do a boss because of gear and the boss needs a nerf...especially the second boss...I'm sorry, but you need to step back and do T14 a few more weeks.


T14 is not LFR.

To make LFR a mandatory part of normal and heroic raiding is asinine.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:47 am

Thing is first boss is a joke to a raid with an average ilevel of 496. It's doable with 485 ilevel, which sets up very misleading expectations for the rest of the instance. If it was actually tuned to be demanding for 496 then post-nerf Horridon wouldn't be such a shock as it is now.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:53 am

LFR is not required...Blizzard has stated that as well; it's a tool that's there for you to use to catch up if you don't want to do T14 anymore. However, if you want to raid end game, IE: T15...then you should complete T14 (not LFR)...that's where you're gonna get the most beneficial gear to get past these walls.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:54 am

I mean, do people have the misconception that a mid expac raid tier needs to be easy like an entry level raid tier?
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:56 am

Fenrìr wrote:I mean, do people have the misconception that a mid expac raid tier needs to be easy like an entry level raid tier?



I'm assuming you didn't see the math bit I added to my last post. If indeed the early encounters were being balanced around a 498+ ilvl, you'd *need* to do *more than* T-14 to get the required gear levels.

That said, from the sounds of things, it's not the first boss that is really a gear issue - probably more likely that they got the internal difficulty curve a bit wonky between bosses.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:06 pm

I'll say a raid that has 496 ilevel is perfectly capable of killing post-nerf Horridon by the way. I know that for a fact as the guild I'm in on my lock alt (Nika's guild) 1 shot it easily this week after getting very close last reset pre-nerf (and would have killed it last week with a few more attempts), and that guild has an average ilevel of just under 500 at the moment.

So decide what the issue is, because post-nerf Horridon is perfectly doable with 496 ilevel, which anyone who raided HoF/ToES normal for a significant amount of time last tier should be close to, between being able to upgrade 496 pieces last patch, the neutral 522 neck.

Without a doubt Jin'Rokh is too easy, but I don't think after the nerf Horridon is particularly overtuned. I don't think having the first 5-6 bosses tuned around 496 ilevel is particularly outrageous.

The fact that Horridon/Council/Magaera all got nerfed must not be forgotten - they were tuned a bit tightly which had a big effect on a lot of guilds' week 1 progress, but the fights right now are pretty accessible.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:25 pm

benebarba wrote:let's say you have ilvl 496 in all your slots from farming the hell out of normal mode T-14. Your whole team has done the same. You all go grab your 522 neck at neutral, so your average ilvl is now, what 497/498? (+26 ilvl in 1 of 12 slots)? So you literally do not have the gear for at least 1/2 weeks (LFR lag of 1 week, so you can't earn rep) to go into the first boss at the intended level.


But that isn't the problem...if you're raid group was clearing the hell out of T14 normal modes, that means the mechanics should not be any issue and the gear can easily be overcome by that. 95% of the player base apparently wants to be 12/12 the first week...it's not possible. Even then, it was easily possible to get to friendly that first week...again, player responsibility which a guild in your scenario would have so they could have 2...maybe 3 upgrades by the time LFR opened.

However we're not talking about guilds at that point; we are talking about guilds that were not even clearing MSV, much less HoF or even know where ToES is...should not be complaining about the difficulty of ToT. It just doesn't compute. Your guild cannot handle mechanics so why are you trying? Sure, it's a game...everyone wants to see the end boss. I get that. That's why LFR does exist.

My raid team has an avg ilvl of 509...could we benefit from going back into HoF and ToES and actually doing the heroics we don't have for the gear? Absolutely; mostly because it's skewed by two people having close to 520 ilvl (I think the majority of us are around the lower end of 500). There have been a few fights where gear has been an issue due to a mechanic failure or three...but once those mechanics were mastered, the boss went down decently well, even if enrage was right around the corner.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Teranoid » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:35 pm

Flex wrote:Normal mode raiding should not be balanced around having to do the LFR version of that raid.


It's not.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby econ21 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:48 pm

Teranoid wrote:
Flex wrote:Normal mode raiding should not be balanced around having to do the LFR version of that raid.


It's not.


I think locking the VP gear behind SPA rep comes close to that for slowly progressing guilds.

I am on a backwater server, EU bottom 20 or something like that in terms of raid progression. Probably only a dozen guilds finished T14 on my server. I think for slowly progressing guilds like mine and those on my server, they often progress by outgearing the content, thanks to valor gear.

In the past, I tend to progress through raids already wearing gear about equal to what it drops. That will require LFR this time round.

It's not a big deal, because running LFR is something slowly progressing guilds will do anyway. But I do find the gating of VP gear behind SPA rep irritating. Partly because I'm finding 5.2 LFR much more irritating than 5.0. Partly because I have this fear I will be valor capped with nothing worth spending it on, given how slowly rep rises from LFR alone. Partly because the initial SPA gear is so insipid. A necklace? Double avoidance bracers? Sidegrade trinkets? Meh.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Flex » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:55 pm

Teranoid wrote:
Flex wrote:Normal mode raiding should not be balanced around having to do the LFR version of that raid.


It's not.


Correct. Bene and Fenrir have an argument going on that's annoying.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:05 pm

let's say you have ilvl 496 in all your slots from farming the hell out of normal mode T-14. Your whole team has done the same. You all go grab your 522 neck at neutral, so your average ilvl is now, what 497/498? (+26 ilvl in 1 of 12 slots)? So you literally do not have the gear for at least 1/2 weeks (LFR lag of 1 week, so you can't earn rep) to go into the first boss at the intended level.


SLight nitpick. If you actually farmed the hell out of Normal Mode T14 prior to the patch going in, the area a person would be at would be well over 496, unless they simply forgot the Upgrade vendor existed at all.

Even if your guild can't kill Horridon, between trash and Jin'rokh, which would be more than accessible in 496 gear (you'd maybe actually see the 4th pool at that point) would get you to Friendly. I think you vastly overestimate what it takes to kill Jin'rokh.

As far as the tuning of this tier goes, it really just feels like how previous tiers were, excepting that previous tiers tended to have something like 4 or 5 gimmes, while Throne of Thunder cuts that down a little. In ICC, the entire first wing was designed to be a gimme. In DS and Firelands, literally half or more bosses were made to be gimmes.

This expansion (and T15 in particular) simply cuts down on gimmes and makes those gimmes actually have a couple of mechanics. Jin'Rokh is one, but even he will require your raid to actually handle Fissures properly. Stone Guards was a gimme, but even there you had to handle taunts properly. That's slightly different to where you pretty much lolshot Marrowgar or Beasts or Shannox or Morchok with basically no idea of what was going on because even when you did the mechanics wrong, you still won with half your raid alive.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Jabari » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:51 pm

Rhiannon wrote:Thing is first boss is a joke to a raid with an average ilevel of 496.
I'll say a raid that has 496 ilevel is perfectly capable of killing post-nerf Horridon by the way. I know that for a fact as the guild I'm in on my lock alt (Nika's guild)...


To you.

You are not average.

You guys are in the elite "real raiders" class. We're not talking about you here. We're talking about average people here, that are stuck on Garalon at best, and Elegon at worst.

What are we supposed to do? What is "our" content? We could (and probably should) keep going in T14 normal, but why? Why bother, when the new LFR has better stuff? We'll end up disenchanting every single drop here in a couple weeks!

(No, LFR is not "content". LFR is mindless once-a-week work you put in to try to get upgrades for real raid night.)

Or should we all just quit, as we're in a middle "dead zone" that there is no content for? Too good for LFR, and too bad for "real raiding".

Fenrìr wrote:However we're not talking about guilds at that point; we are talking about guilds that were not even clearing MSV, much less HoF or even know where ToES is...should not be complaining about the difficulty of ToT. It just doesn't compute. Your guild cannot handle mechanics so why are you trying?

Gee, thanks. Quit it is.

For the record, I'm not complaining about the difficulty of ToT. I'm complaining about ToT LFR dropping higher ilvl stuff than T14 normal, and that there's no reason for even doing T14 any longer. Well, no reason related to "progression", at least.

Fenrìr wrote:However, if you want to raid end game, IE: T15...then you should complete T14 (not LFR)...that's where you're gonna get the most beneficial gear to get past these walls.

Did I miss something and 496 is now larger than 502?

Fenrìr wrote:If you want to be in a normal mode raid group, you probably need to bite the bullet and app to a slightly better guild than the one you're in.

Absolutely not. The guild is RL friends (and friends-of-friends) that I rarely/never get to see in real life because they're between 150 and 3000 miles away. I certainly could get in with a higher "normal mode" guild, but if I really wanted to play stuff with strangers I'd go back to playing chess competitively.

halabar wrote:You in my raid team?.. :shock: :wink: (my group also has a lot of new raiders)

Heh. Actually, we don't have any/many new raiders - a lot of the group's been together since ICC at least. We're just ... average. Not elite, or even "very good". People here make all kinds of assumptions about DPS numbers and stuff which are just way too high.

We had a horrific time on Stone Guards. The people here don't seem to realize that DPS-ing on the move is a rather advanced skill - when Amethyst and Cobalt were up, we had people doing 25k that do like 65k on Feng. We were "doing the mechanics correctly" - get out of pools, away from mines, swap dogs (mostly correctly) and never had a problem with Jasper Chains. Just didn't have the DPS with all the movement. *shrug*

Having that as the first boss of the expansion was kind of off-putting, and rather demoralizing. Progression after that seemed reasonable (though Spirit Kings was way too easy). Should get Elegon this week or next, which would also be reasonable. Just frustrating to get better stuff doing stupid-ass LFR than current (to us) normal modes.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:20 pm

Well, I don't know that Nika would describe her raid team as elite, but anyway. And frankly, if a guild that raids 6 hours a week and had to cancel maybe 1/3 of their raids last tier can manage to clear normal, I'd say normal's tuned pretty well. At a certain point there has to be an incentive for people to actually try to get better.
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