What's up with T15?

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, PsiVen, Sabindeus, Aergis

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:31 am

I really can't believe we're arguing that LFR is too accessible and normal is not. I don't like LFR myself, but Blizzard really can't win in this situation. They've tried to give casual players who don't have a lot of time to waste the option to do raids and get gear. It's right there. It's unorganized and it's full of idiots simply because of what it is. If normal was to be less tuned than it is, then you'd be looking at LFR in a 10 man format.
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8406
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Winkle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:06 am

benebarba wrote:Yep. But doing it by adding in another raid difficulty, or reducing the raid difficulty from the outset probably isn't the best way to go overall.


I'm not sure there's another way to address it other than reducing difficulty though.

On my server (which i assume isn't unique) there's numerous guilds that are co-ordinated enough to be guilded, with an external website and voice coms and regular raid days that can't progress past Jin'rokh. Sure they could go back to T14 but they've already spent 4-6 months attempting to clear the place and probably running lfr for it weekly. I imagine there as tired of it as everyone else.

I think to expect them to spend another month or more in there whilst others progress in new content is foolish, and simply won't happen. It's far more likely that they'll simply stop raiding and possibly quit the game.
Winkle
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:36 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Jabari » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:20 am

Background: My guild is mostly older players, consisting of old college friends and current coworkers and such. We raid once a week, for about three to four hours. We (as a group) are ... somewhat lacking in skill - we have a couple of very good players, and a lot of what I would call "average" players - they don't get out of fire right away all the time, they do 75% of max-simcraft DPS, etc.

That said, we're not "full of idiots", either. We're organized, have voice comms, pick up fight mechnaics fairly well (if not perfectly, or right away), and don't do completely stupid things. We are all completely gemmed/enchanted, use flasks and feasts, and so on.


We absolutely had the worst time in MV. We (barely) got past Spirit Kings before the nerf, and now can get up TO Elegon every week (which we weren't before - Stone Guards still stopped us cold some weeks), but haven't gotten past it yet. (Haven't had a ton of attempts yet, though).

The 10% nerf for 5.0 raids "feels" to me to be the correct tuning for a group like ours - we should progress at a reasonable pace now, a new boss down every couple of weeks or thereabouts. (Or about - 10% is a bit much, 7.5% would have been perfect. For our group.)

The problem is that the ILVL for the new LFR (and new VP stuff) totally outclasses anything we can get in "our" content. This seems like a huge flaw to me - if LFR is supposed to be "catch-up", then it should give no higher than ilvl 496.

With it at 502, we're simply going to DE most drops in "our" content! It's not like we can really go on and do ToT either - it's too hard (for our group) - it's no fun to get stuck on the first boss for 2 months again!

What, exactly, is "our" content supposed to be?
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:40 am

Jabari wrote:Background: My guild is mostly older players, consisting of old college friends and current coworkers and such. We raid once a week, for about three to four hours. We (as a group) are ... somewhat lacking in skill - we have a couple of very good players, and a lot of what I would call "average" players - they don't get out of fire right away all the time, they do 75% of max-simcraft DPS, etc.

That said, we're not "full of idiots", either. We're organized, have voice comms, pick up fight mechnaics fairly well (if not perfectly, or right away), and don't do completely stupid things. We are all completely gemmed/enchanted, use flasks and feasts, and so on.

With it at 502, we're simply going to DE most drops in "our" content! It's not like we can really go on and do ToT either - it's too hard (for our group) - it's no fun to get stuck on the first boss for 2 months again!

What, exactly, is "our" content supposed to be?


You in my raid team?.. :shock: :wink: (my group also has a lot of new raiders)

I wouldn't worry about the LFR drops as much as the new rep valor purchases, since they are 522.

But really the LFR drops AND the rep gear should be pushing your team, and mine, through T14 faster, and on into T15 eventually.

The first boss doesn't seem to be the issue, it's the second boss. What remains to be seen is if your group or mine can get past Horridon with enough gear but with our "average" skill set.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 6557
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:42 am

Stacking Determination for raids that is removeable by the raid leader; boss drops lose 1 iLvl per stack?

I don't know. Bliz is stuck with either having people complain that content is too easy and boring, or too difficult and inaccessible. It isn't incumbent on Blizzard to make sure every raid group can clear all current content, or even current-1, is it? On the other hand, they do want players to be enjoying themselves (and continuing to subscribe).

I think they do have a very good idea on what kind of progression numbers they consider "acceptable." If their magic number of raids aren't clearing certain bosses, they address those bosses. Some groups will still not be able to reach those levels of performance. Can Blizzard accommodate these groups? *Should* Blizzard be trying?

I remember at a blizzcon a few years ago during the Raids&Dungeons Q&A someone asked when they were going to make Raiding "more accessible, because they really missed the mark with Karazhan." The developers just kind of looked at each other and said, "we disagree."

Is there really anything they can do for these kinds of groups?
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3447
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:46 am

fuzzygeek wrote:I remember at a blizzcon a few years ago during the Raids&Dungeons Q&A someone asked when they were going to make Raiding "more accessible, because they really missed the mark with Karazhan." The developers just kind of looked at each other and said, "we disagree."

Is there really anything they can do for these kinds of groups?


They did. LFR.

I'll be the first to admit the lack of skill in my team, and the fact that they will need the LFR and valor gear as noted above to push into T15.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 6557
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Winkle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:50 am

Wasn't Karazhan pretty damn hard when it was initially released? TBH i wasn't around then so perhaps shouldn't comment.

I agree they can't make everyone happy all of the time, but it does seem they've decided to make raids more challenging, which isn't what i was expecting.

And whilst the normal and heroic modes provide ample content for my guild, my server as a whole is suffering as many guilds just can't progress through the content other than in LFR, which many regard as far from ideal/enjoyable content.
Winkle
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:36 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:54 am

I personally like how T15 is.

But the problem is the group of people who see themselves as above LFR and can't get past the second boss of ToT. It's a new tier...it's going to be harder and the ilvl requirement is going to be higher. It'd be stupid and, nay I say it, boring as shit if T15 had the same ilvl requirement as ToES or HoF. It has to be harder. While I respect the people who want to raid and see normal mode raids, I think the vast majority of people need to understand that if they haven't even cleared T14, T15 isn't where they should be (and if they are attempting, not complaining about the difficulty).

If you want to be in a normal mode raid group, you probably need to bite the bullet and app to a slightly better guild than the one you're in.

It's really just a catch-22 that Blizzard has here. Sure, LFR is boring and well, full of idiots (no offense to anyone who does LFR religiously); but Blizzard has stated it is a catch up to gear and the tuning for the bosses in normal mode is, imo, spot on. Sure, a few things need to be changed, but I don't think Blizzard sees it as such. They even said the bosses aren't really tuned around ilvl so much as mechanic execution (within reason I must add cause if you're sitting at 490 ilvl, don't expect to get past Council). Use this new LFR and the Rep gear to get through T14, gear up and then push in. Sure it's slow and everyone wants to raid the new content as soon as it's out, but unfortunately, you need to be able to meet the chec kmarks: IE: gear level, mechanic execution, class skill (in no order).

That's just how it is, to me.



(And I know I used 'you' a lot, it's not directed at anyone, just how I was typing).
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:09 am

Winkle wrote:
benebarba wrote:Yep. But doing it by adding in another raid difficulty, or reducing the raid difficulty from the outset probably isn't the best way to go overall.


I'm not sure there's another way to address it other than reducing difficulty though.

On my server (which i assume isn't unique) there's numerous guilds that are co-ordinated enough to be guilded, with an external website and voice coms and regular raid days that can't progress past Jin'rokh. Sure they could go back to T14 but they've already spent 4-6 months attempting to clear the place and probably running lfr for it weekly. I imagine there as tired of it as everyone else.

I think to expect them to spend another month or more in there whilst others progress in new content is foolish, and simply won't happen. It's far more likely that they'll simply stop raiding and possibly quit the game.


Sure there is, as Kysen pointed out: modify the difficulty curve of the encounters within a single tier/instance. At the moment, I don't think you can choose which boss you go after in any of the instances (they are all essentially linear progression, or am I missing something?). So if boss #1 is blocking a large portion of groups, that's probably not great design. But the trouble there is answering the question of when 'the hard stuff' can show up. Rolling nerfs I think wouldn't have been the right answer either, since the trouble there becomes deciding when to start them, since that would become the defacto end of a tier (sorta like happened in DS).

I think that blizzard is trying to find a medium between the 'everyone can clear, but some may take longer' of say DS with the rolling nerfs and the 'only 1% of the playerbase will see the last boss of the normal mode of this tier' of some of the earlier expansions. But that means that not everyone will clear everything on normal mode. It seems like blizzard is trying to make up for that by giving folks other stuff to do, so they don't just throw up their hands and quit though some certainly will.

The major trouble so far in MOP that I've seen has been pacing by the players and content availability. The game will let you throw yourself at content until your eyes bleed, and you curse the day Blizzard was formed. 'Do ALL thet things!' has long since become etched in the communities expectations, and so I think some of the burnout is a result of this. I know it certainly was in my guild. And if a group starts throwing themselves at a raid from day 1 and still has trouble several months on, I'm not sure that there isn't an expectation to be managed there as well.
benebarba
 
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:30 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:19 am

Fenrìr wrote:I personally like how T15 is.

But the problem is the group of people who see themselves as above LFR and can't get past the second boss of ToT. It's a new tier...it's going to be harder and the ilvl requirement is going to be higher. It'd be stupid and, nay I say it, boring as shit if T15 had the same ilvl requirement as ToES or HoF. It has to be harder. While I respect the people who want to raid and see normal mode raids, I think the vast majority of people need to understand that if they haven't even cleared T14, T15 isn't where they should be (and if they are attempting, not complaining about the difficulty).


I think that the argument that T-15's first normal mode boss shouldn't require more than 496 is pretty reasonable (not requiring 470, like say HoF or ToES - I agree that's too low). That would be the gear from clearing normal T-14 and maybe some valor stuff. 480 (I think?) for the LFR seems pretty reasonable as well (cleared T-14 LFR, maybe some valor gear).

I really think that this is just a culture shock to people who got used to the 'go right into current tier' of Cata or never got into (or liked) the progression through tiers of previous expansions. Therefore, for those who've been attempting content and not making it happen for whatever reason I can see some frustration.
benebarba
 
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:30 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:30 am

I don't know if I agree with a 496 ilvl req for the first boss. It needs to be higher. I could see 502 or something. But even then, I feel like the bosses are tuned pretty close to where they should be (save for that damn boring ass bird...he should the first boss).

Even then, Blizzard said that normal mode, while it has an ilvl req, should only be wiping guilds if they can't do the mechanics properly. And that's exactly what people are seeing here with Horridon...mechanics, not gear. Sure, gear would help...but guess where you'll get the gear to kill boss 2 of a new tier....that's right, previous tier.
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Flex » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:33 am

Fenrìr wrote:but guess where you'll get the gear to kill boss 2 of a new tier....that's right, previous tier.


The balancing was people stuck at Garalon (that seems to be the basis for everything) should get the first ToT boss down, should have some issues with the second but it should be doable and will have more trouble with the third. After that they shouldn't be able to progress smoothly and would need to go back to T14 raids.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:36 am

Fenrìr wrote:I don't know if I agree with a 496 ilvl req for the first boss. It needs to be higher. I could see 502 or something. But even then, I feel like the bosses are tuned pretty close to where they should be (save for that damn boring ass bird...he should the first boss).

Even then, Blizzard said that normal mode, while it has an ilvl req, should only be wiping guilds if they can't do the mechanics properly. And that's exactly what people are seeing here with Horridon...mechanics, not gear. Sure, gear would help...but guess where you'll get the gear to kill boss 2 of a new tier....that's right, previous tier.


502 ilvl would basically mean that LFR or heroic modes were part of the progression, or mean that more 500+ ilvl loot had to be available elsewhere. I thought one of the express goals was for LFR to *not* be part of the progression aside from 'catch up'.

I can't actually comment on the balance, I was speaking more generally. But yeah - I agree with the general trend of 'mechanics = win' that was present even in T-14. I actually think that allows for more than just 'make bigger numbers!' type difficulty, which means that groups that may have some trouble just with raw DPS/HPS can still get pretty far into a raid before hitting a wall.
benebarba
 
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:30 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:40 am

But by the same logic of LFR is a catch-up tool...with it dropping 502 ilvl gear with 522 rep vendor, I don't think a 502 ilvl req for the first boss is too far fetched.

Proper planning of VP for the last couple of weeks before 5.2 could have netted most people 2 pieces of 522 gear (neck, ring, bracers or trinket). But that falls on player responsibility and foresight.
Last edited by Fenrìr on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:42 am

Fenrìr wrote:But by the same logic of LFR is a catch-up tool...with it dropping 502 ilvl gear with 522 rep vendor, I don't think a 502 ilvl req for the first boss is too far fetched.

Proper planning of VP for the last couple of weeks before 5.2 could have netted most people 2 pieces of 522 gear (neck, ring, bracers or trinket). But that falls on player responsibility and foresight.


... and using LFR as part of the progression requirements. Actual requirements, not just socially imposed ones, if that was what it was balanced around.


let's say you have ilvl 496 in all your slots from farming the hell out of normal mode T-14. Your whole team has done the same. You all go grab your 522 neck at neutral, so your average ilvl is now, what 497/498? (+26 ilvl in 1 of 12 slots)? So you literally do not have the gear for at least 1/2 weeks (LFR lag of 1 week, so you can't earn rep) to go into the first boss at the intended level.
Last edited by benebarba on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
benebarba
 
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:30 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:44 am

It's the model blizzard is following this expac and people need to realize that.

If people are complaining they can't do a boss because of gear and the boss needs a nerf...especially the second boss...I'm sorry, but you need to step back and do T14 a few more weeks.
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Flex » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:45 am

Normal mode raiding should not be balanced around having to do the LFR version of that raid.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Flex » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:46 am

Fenrìr wrote:It's the model blizzard is following this expac and people need to realize that.

If people are complaining they can't do a boss because of gear and the boss needs a nerf...especially the second boss...I'm sorry, but you need to step back and do T14 a few more weeks.


T14 is not LFR.

To make LFR a mandatory part of normal and heroic raiding is asinine.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:47 am

Thing is first boss is a joke to a raid with an average ilevel of 496. It's doable with 485 ilevel, which sets up very misleading expectations for the rest of the instance. If it was actually tuned to be demanding for 496 then post-nerf Horridon wouldn't be such a shock as it is now.
Rhiannon
 
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:17 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:53 am

LFR is not required...Blizzard has stated that as well; it's a tool that's there for you to use to catch up if you don't want to do T14 anymore. However, if you want to raid end game, IE: T15...then you should complete T14 (not LFR)...that's where you're gonna get the most beneficial gear to get past these walls.
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:54 am

I mean, do people have the misconception that a mid expac raid tier needs to be easy like an entry level raid tier?
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:56 am

Fenrìr wrote:I mean, do people have the misconception that a mid expac raid tier needs to be easy like an entry level raid tier?



I'm assuming you didn't see the math bit I added to my last post. If indeed the early encounters were being balanced around a 498+ ilvl, you'd *need* to do *more than* T-14 to get the required gear levels.

That said, from the sounds of things, it's not the first boss that is really a gear issue - probably more likely that they got the internal difficulty curve a bit wonky between bosses.
benebarba
 
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:30 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:06 pm

I'll say a raid that has 496 ilevel is perfectly capable of killing post-nerf Horridon by the way. I know that for a fact as the guild I'm in on my lock alt (Nika's guild) 1 shot it easily this week after getting very close last reset pre-nerf (and would have killed it last week with a few more attempts), and that guild has an average ilevel of just under 500 at the moment.

So decide what the issue is, because post-nerf Horridon is perfectly doable with 496 ilevel, which anyone who raided HoF/ToES normal for a significant amount of time last tier should be close to, between being able to upgrade 496 pieces last patch, the neutral 522 neck.

Without a doubt Jin'Rokh is too easy, but I don't think after the nerf Horridon is particularly overtuned. I don't think having the first 5-6 bosses tuned around 496 ilevel is particularly outrageous.

The fact that Horridon/Council/Magaera all got nerfed must not be forgotten - they were tuned a bit tightly which had a big effect on a lot of guilds' week 1 progress, but the fights right now are pretty accessible.
Rhiannon
 
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:17 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:25 pm

benebarba wrote:let's say you have ilvl 496 in all your slots from farming the hell out of normal mode T-14. Your whole team has done the same. You all go grab your 522 neck at neutral, so your average ilvl is now, what 497/498? (+26 ilvl in 1 of 12 slots)? So you literally do not have the gear for at least 1/2 weeks (LFR lag of 1 week, so you can't earn rep) to go into the first boss at the intended level.


But that isn't the problem...if you're raid group was clearing the hell out of T14 normal modes, that means the mechanics should not be any issue and the gear can easily be overcome by that. 95% of the player base apparently wants to be 12/12 the first week...it's not possible. Even then, it was easily possible to get to friendly that first week...again, player responsibility which a guild in your scenario would have so they could have 2...maybe 3 upgrades by the time LFR opened.

However we're not talking about guilds at that point; we are talking about guilds that were not even clearing MSV, much less HoF or even know where ToES is...should not be complaining about the difficulty of ToT. It just doesn't compute. Your guild cannot handle mechanics so why are you trying? Sure, it's a game...everyone wants to see the end boss. I get that. That's why LFR does exist.

My raid team has an avg ilvl of 509...could we benefit from going back into HoF and ToES and actually doing the heroics we don't have for the gear? Absolutely; mostly because it's skewed by two people having close to 520 ilvl (I think the majority of us are around the lower end of 500). There have been a few fights where gear has been an issue due to a mechanic failure or three...but once those mechanics were mastered, the boss went down decently well, even if enrage was right around the corner.
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Teranoid » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:35 pm

Flex wrote:Normal mode raiding should not be balanced around having to do the LFR version of that raid.


It's not.
User avatar
Teranoid
 
Posts: 1639
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:56 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest