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What's up with T15?

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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:57 am

Darielle wrote:
This is getting silly. I'm trying to explain that the downgrading of Valor pieces to Justice and inclusion of last-tier level 5man was a very strong catch-up system for players that could not clear previous tier content, and here I am stuck nitpicking every last little nook.


That's the thing though. It WASn'T strong for people who couldn't clear previous content; because they could get those anyway. Valor didn't really have anything to do with raids.
It WAS strong for people who flat out were not even there the previous tier. And that was why they changed it.

That's not just a nitpick; it is a pretty big misrepresentation to exaggerate the past.



What is wrong with that? If I was a returning subscriber, I'd want to try to catch up as fast as possible... I would prolly lose interest faster without that mechanism.

It is what allowed us to retain two of our raiders that took a break due to army duties.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:11 am

What is wrong with that? If I was a returning subscriber, I'd want to try to catch up as fast as possible... I would prolly lose interest faster without that mechanism.


There's nothing wrong with that. My point was that it had little to no bearing on the options for someone who was actively there in the previous tier, so using it to exaggerate the catchup mechanisms of the past made for a misleading perception. As it is now, a returning subscriber gets to go straight into (easy) 5-mans the moment they hit 90, and has a number of catchup options that can propel them into the mid-480's within a week, followed by the 490's within another week.

I find it extremely skeptical that that is too slow. But, as I said, a person who was active in T14 doesn't even have to do that because they're already starting in the 490's.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Lieris » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:56 am

Newsom wrote:But isn't a good thing that Normal modes are something the more "casual" guilds actually have to progress through now instead of being just another loot piñata?


I think it is. The problem with making normal modes really easy is then these guilds that are struggling on Horridon normal will be struggling on Horridon heroic a couple of months after release and making the same complaints they are now. This happened in Firelands with its trivial normal modes that shunted a huge proportion of the player base who had no business being there. Blizzard bowed to these players' wishes and nerfed the raid so hard that 6/7 heroic was completely devalued.

I am sure Horridon will get nerfs soon but can't raising the bar for the player base sometimes be a good thing and force them to get better? Managing adds, target switching and interrupts are important skills and I don't think they are too much to ask of raiders especially in a game that is 8 years old.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:01 am

I dunno. I never had real complaints about doing bad in heroics Firelands encounter. We only completed a couple before moving to DS.

I don't think anyone in our guild complained about being stuck in heroics in Fireland. We know how hard the olympic pool is. We were happy completing the splashzone.

Heck, we saw Heroic firelands as an improvement over our performance in heroic BoT/BWD

Now... I noticed the blue post mentions Garalon. I know GC did admit overtuning Garalon when it was current. I just wonder if people just not wanting to do T14 was because of that.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Gab » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:23 am

Winkle wrote:Re-visiting T14 normal modes is a reasonable course for those guilds to take, but based on a very small sample of guilds on my server those avenues for progress aren't being utilized because T14 no longer holds an interest for them after months of elegon/garalon wipes and T14 LFR.


I'm sure this argument has already been made but whatever:

So after months of wipes on Elegon/Garalon with the new 10% nerf and 2-3 shiny new 522 valor pieces (Friendly and 4k valor were available WEEK ONE) people don't want to finally kill those bosses that gave them so much trouble?

There is NEW content for these guilds, even if it wasn't added in 5.2, it's right after Elegon/Garalon. These "new" encounters are now accessable.

It's been said before, LFR is not a representation of normal mode bosses, so how can people have no interest in encounters they have never experienced as they were meant to be experienced? If you didn't kill T14 normal bosses they are just as "new" as T15 normal bosses... Not to mention they are the intended progression path.

People need to stop complaining about where they are relative to everyone else and enjoy encounters that are at their skill (gear...) levels. If you've only done Amber Shaper and Empress on LFR then the Normal modes are definitely going to be a new experience.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:11 am

Gab wrote:
Winkle wrote:Re-visiting T14 normal modes is a reasonable course for those guilds to take, but based on a very small sample of guilds on my server those avenues for progress aren't being utilized because T14 no longer holds an interest for them after months of elegon/garalon wipes and T14 LFR.


I'm sure this argument has already been made but whatever:

So after months of wipes on Elegon/Garalon with the new 10% nerf and 2-3 shiny new 522 valor pieces (Friendly and 4k valor were available WEEK ONE) people don't want to finally kill those bosses that gave them so much trouble?

There is NEW content for these guilds, even if it wasn't added in 5.2, it's right after Elegon/Garalon. These "new" encounters are now accessable.

People need to stop complaining about where they are relative to everyone else and enjoy encounters that are at their skill (gear...) levels. If you've only done Amber Shaper and Empress on LFR then the Normal modes are definitely going to be a new experience.


Based on the experience of my newish 25-man crew...

We cleared MSV after the nerfs once. Not planning to go back. Why? Too much content in front, not enough people need the gear from it. A lot of stuff is getting sharded. Sadly, the gear the undergeared folks need is not dropping.

I think some of the better players in the group are growing weary of having the rest learn these "old" fights when so much new content is in front of us. We had firsts on Will and the first two of HoF last raid, and now we are at Garalon, and the healers/kiters/tanks need to figure that out. We are considering skipping to ToES if we can get in, mainly for the gear that most need (never will get my tier legs, but oh well).

I also don't think the average "casual" raider is as concerned about mastering a fight as you (and many others here) would be. They just want to progress.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:31 am

I also don't think the average "casual" raider is as concerned about mastering a fight as you (and many others here) would be. They just want to progress.


Progress at what, if you're not concerned about mastering fights?

If it's loot, loot progress happens either way. If it's "Shek'zeer doesn't feel as exciting as Horridon because we killed her 200 times on LFR already", you've nailed one of the biggest flaws that LFR has introduced into the raiding environment.
Learning an "old" fight you've never seen (but is still relevant) and Learning a "new" fight you've never seen aren't exactly that different. If anything, if people are frustrated about the time or wipes in learning old fights because they consider themselves better than others in the group, it can only be worse in the new fights.

Now... I noticed the blue post mentions Garalon. I know GC did admit overtuning Garalon when it was current. I just wonder if people just not wanting to do T14 was because of that.


Barely anyone fought Garalon when he was overtuned. It's kinda like how practically no one really experienced the joy that was 4-heal Megaera on 10N since that version BARELY made it through a week.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Jabari » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:44 am

Gab wrote:So after months of wipes on Elegon/Garalon with the new 10% nerf and 2-3 shiny new 522 valor pieces (Friendly and 4k valor were available WEEK ONE) people don't want to finally kill those bosses that gave them so much trouble?

There is NEW content for these guilds, even if it wasn't added in 5.2, it's right after Elegon/Garalon. These "new" encounters are now accessable.

It's been said before, LFR is not a representation of normal mode bosses, so how can people have no interest in encounters they have never experienced as they were meant to be experienced? If you didn't kill T14 normal bosses they are just as "new" as T15 normal bosses... Not to mention they are the intended progression path.


Again (and this has been my complaint all along, regardless of what some people may claim in other threads):
There is no interest in "new" T14 normal bosses, because the gear from those makes your ilvl go DOWN, not UP. T15 LFR (and new VP stuff) is what makes your ilvl go UP.

I, personally, would like to keep going through - current T14 normal is "my guild's content". A lot of people have lost enthusiasm for it through as we're getting 3 Blood Spirits for every useful drop at this point. *shrug*
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Flex » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:59 am

Sagara wrote:Actually, I'd say the SPA rep is more of an "anti-catch-up", as we 2/12+ raiders have gotten more use out of it to upgrade important pieces earlier.


SPA doesn't fit the definition of catch up. Catch up is to get to the point where you can do the current tier, since SPA sells items at the current tier level it isn't needed to do the current tier.

And then we get to the kicker: you're farming old stuff. You've seen the inside of T14 for 6 months now. You want to see new stuff. The new raid would be cool, but at least *NEW*


If you've been farming the old stuff for 6 months how are you not ready for the new stuff? Unless you mean a new character but then I have to ask if you're filling an important role for your group by bringing a new character why are they not more than happy enough to carry your ass through T14 for a week or two?

I like the new model better, to a point, actually. The biggest downside it has had so far was the daily grind that left like a step down from 5.1, and the utter uselessness of Justice (yayheirlooms!)


Justice has a very potent use now for "catching up" in that you can buy 476 PvP gear by converting it to honor. One of our healers was out of town this week and a back up healer has had zero luck, outside of rings, in every heroic we've run. But he had 3K JP and 2K honor so with conversions he was able to get PvP shoulders and legs this week to go along with the 476 crafted items we got him.

If it's "Shek'zeer doesn't feel as exciting as Horridon because we killed her 200 times on LFR already", you've nailed one of the biggest flaws that LFR has introduced into the raiding environment.


Only a few of our raid team were heavy into LFR so I'm hoping we can keep interest in new content, and desire for the legendary chain, high enough to make clearing it worth.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:34 am

Darielle wrote:
I also don't think the average "casual" raider is as concerned about mastering a fight as you (and many others here) would be. They just want to progress.


Progress at what, if you're not concerned about mastering fights?

If it's loot, loot progress happens either way. If it's "Shek'zeer doesn't feel as exciting as Horridon because we killed her 200 times on LFR already", you've nailed one of the biggest flaws that LFR has introduced into the raiding environment.
Learning an "old" fight you've never seen (but is still relevant) and Learning a "new" fight you've never seen aren't exactly that different. If anything, if people are frustrated about the time or wipes in learning old fights because they consider themselves better than others in the group, it can only be worse in the new fights.

Now... I noticed the blue post mentions Garalon. I know GC did admit overtuning Garalon when it was current. I just wonder if people just not wanting to do T14 was because of that.


Barely anyone fought Garalon when he was overtuned. It's kinda like how practically no one really experienced the joy that was 4-heal Megaera on 10N since that version BARELY made it through a week.


Actually he mentioned this way after the nerf to the enrage timer
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nooska » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:28 am

I think there are a few people here seriously not understanding the psychology invovled with being a midlevel raiding guild where you have to take along those that are just unde rthe skill barrier (or you don't have a raid at all).
After spedning months wiping on Garalon or any other boss - no you don't get them to come work on it again when the new tier is out, they have been trained to expect wipes and not be able to beat the boss - especially when they've already been past that SEVERAL times due to LFR.
I'm not talking about the ones that wiped at 3% to enrage - they can see the end, and can see they can get past it with just a little more oomph that they now have access to.

Also, that blue post is exactly outlining that its a design decision which I'm highlighting in my last post - that T15 is designed to keep you in T14 untill you get gear thats (equal to or) better than clearing T14N.
Please note they say its not balanced around clearing T14H, but T14N - something which we have been trained to not do when a new tier comes out over 6 years. Its a drastic change that should have been more incremental from a pure psychological reasoning.

I did lough out loud once, at someone (I can't remember who now) in this thread calling their own guild mediocre or words to that effect, while at the same time talking about how they cleared thinsg and have been farming it (or at least that was the gist I got out of it) - thats not mediocre, thats quite a few strokes under par, and for some reason I kep seeing people here that are clearly skilled, and from their progress are clearly raiding with skilled groups, talk about their own progress as what anyone that wanst to commit should be able to do.

Rule of Thumb - if you are working on heroic modes within the first 4 lockouts of it being available - you in teh cutting edge - I don't care if there are several thousand other guilds doing it, it is NOT average and not what anyone who wants to commit will be doing. Gear is a very real substitute for skill in many cases (though not enough in some cases as well) - there is a reason that most guilds farm normals for a while before working on heroics - unlike Treck and Method, and the other world first guilds, we aren't skilled enough to clear it in sub-par gear.

All that being said, I think we have started going in circles, and I doubt I'll be participating much more in this thread.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nooska » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:30 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Darielle wrote:
I also don't think the average "casual" raider is as concerned about mastering a fight as you (and many others here) would be. They just want to progress.


Progress at what, if you're not concerned about mastering fights?

If it's loot, loot progress happens either way. If it's "Shek'zeer doesn't feel as exciting as Horridon because we killed her 200 times on LFR already", you've nailed one of the biggest flaws that LFR has introduced into the raiding environment.
Learning an "old" fight you've never seen (but is still relevant) and Learning a "new" fight you've never seen aren't exactly that different. If anything, if people are frustrated about the time or wipes in learning old fights because they consider themselves better than others in the group, it can only be worse in the new fights.

Now... I noticed the blue post mentions Garalon. I know GC did admit overtuning Garalon when it was current. I just wonder if people just not wanting to do T14 was because of that.


Barely anyone fought Garalon when he was overtuned. It's kinda like how practically no one really experienced the joy that was 4-heal Megaera on 10N since that version BARELY made it through a week.


Actually he mentioned this way after the nerf to the enrage timer

He mentioned Garalon and Elegon specifically as being too hard (paraphrasing here)
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:55 am

Also, that blue post is exactly outlining that its a design decision which I'm highlighting in my last post - that T15 is designed to keep you in T14 untill you get gear thats (equal to or) better than clearing T14N.
Please note they say its not balanced around clearing T14H, but T14N - something which we have been trained to not do when a new tier comes out over 6 years. Its a drastic change that should have been more incremental from a pure psychological reasoning.


But that's what I mean - it's NOT the case, when you actually look at history. In T8, you left Naxx behind as fast as you could because Naxx was several months of horrible and easy, but that was its intent, and no tier has ever gone for that design going forward.
When T9 came out, you HAD to still go back and do the old tier because T9 was a massive 5 bosses and only 1 boss opened up.
In T10, you HAD to still go back and do the old tier because the 4 bosses that were available for a month took no time to do.

So at worst, you can claim that this pattern was established over Firelands and DS. Which isn't a very long span of time. And barely qualifies as a precedent. Even Firelands you had plenty of guilds complaining about how hard or impossible Alys was and all that jazz (running in circles is complex) - to the point that they gutted mechanics like Firestorm to compensate.

The question of where you think T15 should be, or why T15 is perceived to be hard, is YET to be answered. Vague comments about the skilled elite don't really change that Jin'rokh barely requires more than Gara'jal used to be require back when T14 came out. Or even Horridon and Council somehow being "gearchecks" and not "mechanics fights", with mechanics requirements that REALLY aren't that hard (interrupting a mob a couple of times and switching to blow up adds with 800k health?)

Actually he mentioned this way after the nerf to the enrage timer


If you can actually find where he might have indicated that Garalon post-nerfs was still too hard, and wasn't speaking retrospectively or mentioning original LFR version or that kind of thing, go for it.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nooska » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:12 am

As I said previously, I havent' stepped foot in ToT at all yet, which is also one of the reasons I'm scaling down my involvement in this thread.

As for Jin'rokh barely requiring more than gara'jal - well look at the post, noone is saying Jin'rokh is hard (From what I know Jin is the first boss) - but Jin sets the tone for the instance as being easy, which is not the case (going by what people have said)

You T9/10 anecdotes are just that, your experience, and I am claiming that just because YOU cleared them easily and had to go back, that wasn't the general case.
I missed T9 as current content, as I had an 8 month no-wow period due to relationship issues (and being too involved in the game, versus the relationship - which was a fair complaint), I came back as T10 had more or less just rolled around, and I know thet the guild I was in, and got back into raiding with a while later, and which got everything but LK down on heroic before ruby sanctum (iirc) (I missed Sindragosa several times, sadly) didn't bump against the gating, at all.

Darielle; What I'm trying to say, is, your progression is not average or middle of the pack, its well better than par, so your experience of "having to go back" because you had nothing else to do isn't par for the course - also, going back because you cleared stuff is a far cry from being locked back in a world where you've been trained to go forward as soon as you get a new tier available, either through 5-man gearing or jp gearing (so again 5 mans).

A counter anecdotal story, after my 8 month hiatus (was geared from 25man nax, and 1 piece from 25man uld), I was geared for ICC in less than 2 weeks with tier bonus from T9 on 2 different characters - without trying to get geared for ICC (I was allowed to return to the game, but not to raid at that time)
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:58 pm

Darielle; What I'm trying to say, is, your progression is not average or middle of the pack, its well better than par, so your experience of "having to go back" because you had nothing else to do isn't par for the course - also, going back because you cleared stuff is a far cry from being locked back in a world where you've been trained to go forward as soon as you get a new tier available, either through 5-man gearing or jp gearing (so again 5 mans).


My progression NOW is not average.
My progression THEN was nothing comparable. It wasn't until the end of T9 (when the guild I was in broke up) that I ended up even moving to Kilrogg to begin with. Tanaris was not exactly an above average realm.
I can assure you that it was absolutely par for the course - the realm that was ranked something like 240 in the world, had no one that actually went all that deep into Heroic modes (until a new guild formed from the remnants after T8/T9) was lined up with guilds that hadn't even cleared Ulduar going "ummm". IIRC, there were something like 5000 kills in the first DAY.

The idea that people don't know what it's like on the casual scale just because they kill bosses is silly. Practically everyone who is in a guild that is Heroic-capable started off in the game with some people who slowly dragged their way through Karazhan and for whom Heroics in BC were "progression" or some such.

As for Jin'rokh barely requiring more than gara'jal - well look at the post, noone is saying Jin'rokh is hard (From what I know Jin is the first boss) - but Jin sets the tone for the instance as being easy, which is not the case (going by what people have said)


Which is why I specifically bring Horridon into the picture - and what's required to kill him. The requirements are not very high on actual numbers; they do get higher if you let VBV get to 6+ stacks, or let Diseases get out of control etc. On the WoW forums, there was a 16/16N guild that ended up 9-manning it because someone dc'd. Information in threads like this: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8197910211, not gear, make the difference. Those aren't Elite Heroic people doing it; they're people who are Normal mode and missed a key element to what they can do, and sought to actually solve it instead of complain about it.
Council's requirements aren't high either. Before they were nerfed, it took something along the lines of an average 90k dps within a 4 minute ish timespan (3*25%*90million health + 90 million health + a couple of million for Loa Spirits - also assuming 3-heal) to do the thing that made the fight TRIVIAL (Kill Sul before he's empowered, or right as he Empowers).

For a 496 raid? Considering you can multidot and cleave to your heart's content? That's not high.
Now it requires around 80k dps. This is still not massively higher than what people could do in 463's here.

Megaera on release WAS insanely tuned (not on Berserk but on raid damage/healing, her dps "requirement" is even more of a joke really), and you won't see many people who did the fight argue otherwise; but she is certainly no longer anywhere near the same fight that she was now (Breaths basically took a 30% hit in damage, health reduced, Rampage reduced).
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