What's up with T15?

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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:40 am

IF you had drops from HoF. There are two bosses before Garalon. At best, you had three pieces from that raid. Further, that would mean abandonning a nice Valor/rep piece.


It's not only if you had drops from HoF. 489's that you got from MSV also became 497's. That's effective enough to push you fairly far into the 490's if you did raid in T14.

Do note that Valor back then gave current-tier rewards, while now, the only faction that actually grants current-tier material is mostly gated.


But Valor is ALREADY gated. Having 245's in T9 didn't make a damn difference out the gate because you had to wait till week 3 to buy that 245 Chest to begin with. SSO rep doesn't functionally slow you down in any effective way; at worst, it limits you from buying the Chest early on. Which is a big whoop because the big item (the trinket) is available right at Friendly.

FIFY and emphasis mine. Always try to keep in mind we're talking about people playing catch up. That means:
People working on the TItan Keepers in Ulduar, or on the Twins/Anub' in ToC.


Not really. We're talking Wrath here. Even for not very good players (like those I played with), most of ToC on 25N was a oneshot, and Ulduar wasn't exactly hard either. Working on Yogg, perhaps. There were plenty who were able to activate and do FL-4 and Heartbreaker and even Steelbreaker last even if they weren't "the elite" or whatever.

MEEP! Wrong premise - we're talking about people that were at 8/11 T11 or 5 or 6/7 T12. I was at 8/11 T11 for example, and still needed a couple pieces in ZG.


That's exactly what I said. A couple of pieces from the new 5-man, and if you were capping Valor from the non-raiding sources that you could anyway, you would have had all the 359's going into T12 so having the T12 come from Justice wasn't really meaningful. It WAS meaningful to those who didn't even play in T11, but that's not the same audience we're talking about here. Even someone who didn't clear T14 had the ability to buy the 5 or so Valor item pieces even if they were too bored by dailies to unlock the Revered items (Blizzard made that change really early in week 1/2 of the expansion)
Last edited by Darielle on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Newsom » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:41 am

I'm with Darielle here. I wouldn't say the catchup is slower now, it's just different. Just consider you can go do Troves of the Thunder king and get ~15 coins for 5 minutes of work, then PUG MSV/HoF/ToES a bit and use a coin on every single boss (which now has a pretty high chance of yielding loot). And then you have LFR on top of that.

Honestly was it more fun mindlessly spamming heroics 50 million times?
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Winkle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:08 am

This whole topic has seemingly gone mental, regardless, Blizzard have officially addressed how they perceive current T15 difficulty and it generally aligns with what a lot of people have said in this thread: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... ?page=2#23

Throne of Thunder normal isn't tuned assuming you are a Heroic raiding guild. If your raid is still progressing through Tier 14 (say, at Garalon) it's very likely you'll be able to only kill Jin'rokh and then face a very difficult battle trying to slay Horridon or Council of Elders, though.

In that case (and for the guilds still progressing through T14) it probably makes more sense to go back clear the rest of Tier 14 (which is now more doable thanks to the 10% reduction in damage and health of bosses as well as the new VP gear you can get with 5.2 Patch).

Guilds that have completed Tier 14 Normal already should be able to progress through Throne of Thunder. Of course, you might not clear all of it in a couple weeks, but it's something definitely doable without getting Heroic gear from Tier 14 (gear from Normal Tier 15 is higher item level).

On the other hand, it's also important to keep in mind that Jin'rokh is a rather easy boss. He's not necessarily a representation of the rest of the raid's difficulty. Which is something many of you have probably noticed while progressing on Horridon or Council of Elders. And that might set a wrong expectation as to how quickly you can/should progress in Throne of Thunder. It's very possible to kill Jin'rokh without much difficulty and then suddenly feel like Horridon is a brick wall, don't despair!

There are many encounters in Throne of Thunder that your raid will have to learn. And it's normal to feel things may be overtuned at the beginning of a new raiding tier while everyone is trying to better understand what each boss does and how to execute the fight properly.

Not everything comes down to how much gear your raid has. In fact, you might overgear, say, Horridon, and yet be unable to progress past him due to an inefficient strategy.

In any case, the developers are keeping an eye out on how things are going, and they will be making adjustments as needed. Ideally, no one should find him/herself in a situation where it looks like it's impossible to win without getting more gear and unable to actually get more gear.

So, don't give up. Go get those VP items (some items from Raid Finder might help as well, absolutely) and keep refining your strategies. The boss kills will come :)
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:10 am

This is getting silly. I'm trying to explain that the downgrading of Valor pieces to Justice and inclusion of last-tier level 5man was a very strong catch-up system for players that could not clear previous tier content, and here I am stuck nitpicking every last little nook.

In fact, I'd argue that it was an insanely fast catch-up requiring a couple of hours a day hacking at those new instances, even without any kind of planning or effort in the previous tier. Got drops, got justice for gear, got 3-4 pieces of last tier level on day 1.

Have you *seen* the amount of loops we're being discussing to get to the same point this time around? Valor on the neck, trash runs+Jin'rokh+MORE Valor for one of wrists/ring/trinket (the tank sucks, btw). That's -IT- for the first -WEEK-

Actually, I'd say the SPA rep is more of an "anti-catch-up", as we 2/12+ raiders have gotten more use out of it to upgrade important pieces earlier.

I'm with Darielle here. I wouldn't say the catchup is slower now, it's just different. Just consider you can go do Troves of the Thunder king and get ~15 coins for 5 minutes of work, then PUG MSV/HoF/ToES a bit and use a coin on every single boss (which now has a pretty high chance of yielding loot). And then you have LFR on top of that.

Honestly was it more fun mindlessly spamming heroics 50 million times?


Who has been discussing fun? Not me. Let's restate *once more* the change in *ease*

T13: 9*7 = 63 mindlesszerg bosses every week + unlimited justice for ugrades. You just got a full 378 set on day 1-2 and just let the valor slowly come in. 7 chances to get "your" piece + the justice option as fallback.
T15: 16 mindlesszeg bosses + 16 easy bosses every week. Even with Elder coins you're just breaking even. So, pray your RNG gods to give you your missing piece of not even necessarily last-tier level. Else? Well, though luck!

And then we get to the kicker: you're farming old stuff. You've seen the inside of T14 for 6 months now. You want to see new stuff. The new raid would be cool, but at least *NEW*

At least the good thing is I'm starting to realize that more than the 5-man, it was the Valor -> Justice downgrade that was the strongest catch-up.

EDIT: Re: Blizz's statement - I'm in agreement with them actually, no matter how hard I try to understand the complains. It's all about patience - the catch-up WILL happen, it will just take a month or so instead of a couple of days. And in the meanwhile, practice will help a lot, and might even accelerate the catch-up.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:13 am

This is getting silly. I'm trying to explain that the downgrading of Valor pieces to Justice and inclusion of last-tier level 5man was a very strong catch-up system for players that could not clear previous tier content, and here I am stuck nitpicking every last little nook.


That's the thing though. It WASn'T strong for people who couldn't clear previous content; because they could get those anyway. Valor didn't really have anything to do with raids.
It WAS strong for people who flat out were not even there the previous tier. And that was why they changed it.

That's not just a nitpick; it is a pretty big misrepresentation to exaggerate the past.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:24 am

Darielle wrote:
This is getting silly. I'm trying to explain that the downgrading of Valor pieces to Justice and inclusion of last-tier level 5man was a very strong catch-up system for players that could not clear previous tier content, and here I am stuck nitpicking every last little nook.


That's the thing though. It WASn'T strong for people who couldn't clear previous content; because they could get those anyway. Valor didn't really have anything to do with raids.
It WAS strong for people who flat out were not even there the previous tier. And that was why they changed it.

That's not just a nitpick; it is a pretty big misrepresentation to exaggerate the past.


Let's go ad absurdo then: what then is the problem with those dear people on this very forum complaiing about Horridon despite the fact they had such powerful catch-up this time around?

L2P?
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:32 am

what then is the problem with those dear people on this very forum complaiing about Horridon despite the fact they had such powerful catch-up this time around?

L2P?


Chances are - they're prioritising the wrong things to kill, trying to aoe things down while ignoring mechanics, or missing a key mechanic (like interrupts on Venom Bolt Volley, or trying to burn big adds in wave 3 and letting the disease get out of control). Or they have players in the raid doing a mix of any of those (it's hard enough for everyone sometimes to get people to actually burn the correct things instead of METERS).

But that's near impossible to confirm without logs.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Winkle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:36 am

Sagara wrote:Let's go ad absurdo then: what then is the problem with those dear people on this very forum complaiing about Horridon despite the fact they had such powerful catch-up this time around?

L2P?


That's exactly their problem, although the same argument can be literally made to any guild that's not world first, "you could play better".

That doesn't mean its a solution to those not progressing through MoP raid tiers.

Blizzard have now stated exactly what they expect from normal mode raiders "Go get those VP items (some items from Raid Finder might help as well, absolutely) and keep refining your strategies. The boss kills will come".. etc.

But my original point still stands, there's former Cata raiding guilds that have found MoP raiding too difficult and are now at a loose end. The solution is apparently LFR, except since that requires almost no co-ordination it doesn't fill the role previous easier/nerfed whilst current raiding tiers filled for them.

Re-visiting T14 normal modes is a reasonable course for those guilds to take, but based on a very small sample of guilds on my server those avenues for progress aren't being utilized because T14 no longer holds an interest for them after months of elegon/garalon wipes and T14 LFR.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:40 am

Winkle wrote:That's exactly their problem, although the same argument can be literally made to any guild that's not world first, "you could play better".

That doesn't mean its a solution to those not progressing through MoP raid tiers.

Blizzard have now stated exactly what they expect from normal mode raiders "Go get those VP items (some items from Raid Finder might help as well, absolutely) and keep refining your strategies. The boss kills will come".. etc.

But my original point still stands, there's former Cata raiding guilds that have found MoP raiding too difficult and are now at a loose end. The solution is apparently LFR, except since that requires almost no co-ordination it doesn't fill the role previous easier/nerfed whilst current raiding tiers filled for them.

Re-visiting T14 normal modes is a reasonable course for those guilds to take, but based on a very small sample of guilds on my server those avenues for progress aren't being utilized because T14 no longer holds an interest for them after months of elegon/garalon wipes and T14 LFR.


THANK YOU.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Newsom » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:51 am

But isn't a good thing that Normal modes are something the more "casual" guilds actually have to progress through now instead of being just another loot piñata?
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:03 am

Newsom wrote:But isn't a good thing that Normal modes are something the more "casual" guilds actually have to progress through now instead of being just another loot piñata?


I like the new model better, to a point, actually. The biggest downside it has had so far was the daily grind that left like a step down from 5.1, and the utter uselessness of Justice (yayheirlooms!)
LFR will keep opening up and everyone will have access to the higher SDA rewards as well.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Newsom » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:06 am

Yeah, I'm not sure Blizzard knows what to do with Justice. Maybe they'll let us buy the T11 VP gear with it next tier. :P
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:10 am

Newsom wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure Blizzard knows what to do with Justice. Maybe they'll let us buy the T11 VP gear with it next tier. :P


If I can buy the white Heroic Sepphirium set (or T14 for that matter *whistle*), I am SO all over it.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:17 am

But my original point still stands, there's former Cata raiding guilds that have found MoP raiding too difficult and are now at a loose end. The solution is apparently LFR, except since that requires almost no co-ordination it doesn't fill the role previous easier/nerfed whilst current raiding tiers filled for them.


So what is the answer?

Because nerfing MoP raiding also has the exact same effect - it removes a large degree of coordination required. That's essentially what you had in Firelands and Dragon Soul, and nerfed T11 (Al'Akir not being able to stack Acid Rain anymore was heeelarious) after all - would removing the coordination requirements on, say, Elegon* really make it an improvement in content, or is it just that LFR has more than the people in your guild, so it naturally doesn't feel as fun as doing something with your guildies exclusively?

*That's one big thing most people miss. The "gearcheck" of Elegon and Garalon is actually for the most part a mechanics check. HOW you handle add waves, or efficient leg damage, determines where you stand. It's not uncommon to see people complain about how they're doing Garalon's mechanics right and not succeeding at the Berserk, but the reason they're not succeeding at the Berserk is that they're failing the leg mechanic by not splitting properly.

Speaking of the Justice point thing, Primordial Saronite still goes for 266 per. I was half interested in soloing my way to a second Lolmourne on an alt (for the rewards) until I saw that.

That's exactly their problem, although the same argument can be literally made to any guild that's not world first, "you could play better".
That doesn't mean its a solution to those not progressing through MoP raid tiers.


Why? Why should it be discounted a solution that after 20 pulls, even one in five casuals are good enough to realise that maybe assigning someone to interrupt Venom Bolt Volley, or "kill the little guys first" could be a good thing (and getting this through the raid)? I think "casuals" are a bit smarter than that overall.

The other side of the coin is Icy Veins syndrome, where people literally spit out strats from there, which aren't always accurate, let alone appropriate, and then struggle as a result. There was a LOT of that happening on Council this tier. Hell, I'm pretty sure people still go to do Garalon with 2 tanks just because Icy Veins says to, or have people spending the entire fight running into legs because Icy Veins said that people should run into Legs for the buff and losing dps. I'm 100% sure there are raids that struggle on Primordius because some chap goes and takes 3 bad debuffs and they sit there doing piss all dps because Icy Veins says to never dispel peoeple.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Newsom » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:37 am

Sagara wrote:
Newsom wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure Blizzard knows what to do with Justice. Maybe they'll let us buy the T11 VP gear with it next tier. :P


If I can buy the white Heroic Sepphirium set (or T14 for that matter *whistle*), I am SO all over it.


Woops. I prefer the blue one!
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