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What's up with T15?

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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:59 pm

Nooska wrote:I think too much emphasis is put on everyone in a raid needing to pull their weight.
Yes, of course, you need to commit, and thats something that I think we can all agree on - but when a developer (team) chooses where to set the bar, do you really feel that the bar should be set so only guilds where everyone moves above the current average can be allowed to down bosses?
(Using average as the average of "output" in both damage/healing and moving out of the fire of the raiding population - raiding population being those that raid in an organized group regularly)


The bar isn't really set so that only guilds where "everyone moves above the current average" can be allowed to down bosses.
Certainly not so after the hotfixes that went into play in the early T15 fight.

If you think this is true, that you somehow have to perform at an unreasonable level to get past, say, Horridon, I'd love for you to demonstrate why you believe this.

Basically, what I'm saying is, that what was good design in 2006/7 isn't good design in 2012/3, unless you are making a product aimed at the same age group in both cases - and if so, then its still not good design here, because, yes, the younger population feels more entitled, due to the general way the world has gone.


They're very specifically not trying to repeat the same experience that was 2006/7. They've decided after a couple of experiences that the method of simply invalidating entire tiers is not all that great for the game, but they are going much beyond that.
This time around there are:
- No Attunements
- A very simple source of easily obtainable Valor gear that allows you to get 522's for almost every slot over time, even if you only do LFR.
- A very heavily nerfed previous tier.
- Improved drop rates in old content.
- "Experiencing" the raid even if you don't raid. If you're a raider that wants to, you can practice mechanics, even though most of the raid doesn't care and will fail them becuase LFR doesn't matter. The one good thing even though they deliberately undertune everything in LFR is that at the least you can SEE things and what happens with them. What the Ice Wall looks like, how it moves, how to fly on Ji'kun, etc. That as a concept is far advanced from the "guides" that a lot of people used in BC. Even Videos are a lot further along for the many, many guilds that can and do use them.

My point is, that a lot of the rhethoric I'm seeing in the arguments, is based on the elite few skilled, and then the masses, where the masses should just have to "get better" - or in other words become part of the elite few, if they want to not get aggravted by not downing bosses - because, lets face it, the reason raiders expect to down bosses, is due to the game teaching them that that is what should happen - which results in less patience for working on bosses and a greater mobility in moving up to a guild that already downed a boss (that can carry you iow, for a lot of those moving on).


Uh. A lot of the "masses" are adequately skilled to get to midway through T15 and most likely end T15 with Lei Shen dead. These masses shouldn't be trying to become part of this "elite few", and most likely aren't good enough to even if they try. But that's not required to kill Normal mode content.

Now if you're trying to say that it's harder for Blizzard to dole out actual meaningful content after having first gone around throwing people gimmes, that's somewhat true. Some people are no doubt frustrated. But if they don't have the patience to work on bosses with friends, I seriously have to question what they're trying to get out of raiding?

It doesn't REALLY take much skill to figure out that Venom PRiests should be interrupted and to do so. It doesn't require perfection to cut out the majority of the raid damage in that part; letting a couple of casts go through is fine, and is what Blizzard expects to happen. SO if you're implying the bar is set very high, it doesn't make sense (to me). How far down should the bar be set, because as it is, the bar is very close to "zerg this", with only one or two major mechanics on every Normal mode fight that matter at any time?
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Newsom » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:56 pm

This thread is stupid.

1. No, you're not meant to be able to go from LFR T14 -> Normal T15 and breeze through the encounters. The intended paths are either Normal T14 -> Normal T15 or LFR T15 -> Normal T15.
2. So you're only raiding normal modes and you're having trouble clearing the new normal modes first week. Why is that so horrible? Don't you want the content to last for a bit? Isn't progression fun?
3. No, the gear checks are not very extreme. The first 5 or so fights are really "win at mechanics, collect loot", assuming you are somehwere in the item level 490 ballpark (or even lower if you really know what you're doing.) The later fights are tuned more strictly because Blizzard expects you to actually gear up via killing the first few bosses a few times, plus valor and trash drops.

If you didn't clear T14 and don't want to deal with the time/RNG of LFR, then go back and do some T14 raids. You can get massive amounts of coins, the content is nerfed and droprates are increased.

If all you want is gear for no effort, then do LFR. Normal mode is supposed to require some effort and some gear (last tier's normal modes will do just fine).
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:03 pm

Two thumbs up for Newsom.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:10 pm

I dont think anyone said about going from LFR 14 to Normal 15.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Newsom » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:17 pm

Seemed like Sagara did a page back, but maybe I misread. There's so much complaining here it's hard to keep up. :D
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:12 am

God, seriously? Okay, Round THREE of explanation.

My hypothesis is that the reason people feel "more" stuck this time around has something to do with catch-up gear being "less" available that previous tiers, because previous tiers provided two very easy paths to catch up (new 5-man and downgraded Valor items). Do FREAKING note that "more" and "less" are left openly vague and non-judgmental, because I could not FREAKING care wether or not it's good or bad for the game at this point.

On a personal note, I'm perfectly happy with how things turned out, but I'm trying to understand the other guy's position, something this thread could use a little more of, me thinks.

Tl;Dr: Maybe people thought they would have an easy time getting some extra gear to tackle T15 early, like they did with T9,T10,T12 and T13, and actually got a slower catch-up instead.

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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nooska » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:22 am

The reason I'm stuck at a lower ilv has more to do with me deciding to not bother about raiding after Lethal fell apart, I'm reasonably sure I could get in almost any raiding guild on my server if I wanted (there are former lethal raiders in most of them anyway), and I even had (have) an offer of a spot if I transferred servers - I'm just too attached to my guild to want to move on.

I'm not sure an easier catch-up would help for lagging raiders as such, what I'm arguing is that the massive majority (numerically) of raiders (or now previous raiders) have had a very pavlovian experience where blizzard taught them what to expect from raiding. Then along comes T14 with super tight enrages and gear checks - gear checks for skilled player, imagine if you have a 50/50 divide around moderatly skilled and moderatly unskilled in your group. Elegon and Garalon are good examples of this. This is demotivating for the players that were taught they were raiders and could expect to see at least 1 heroic mode boss (the first, but still heroic) while content was current.
Then along comes T15, with no catchup like previously seen in every expansion since the first - sorry you have to keep doing what you were doing. The nerf is not something that makes you feel like you can kill something you've been banging your head against, because its one-time and comes at the same time as "everyone else" (from the perspective of the stuck group) move on.
Now all the groups moving on, some would definately have benefited from staying in T14, but that doesn't matter, this is a problem not so much about facts as it is about experiences. We are old enough (players) to remember TBC - well most of us at least - and don't actually mind the new model for ourselves. Some of us are fortunate enough to be in a group with similarly motivated people, but a vast majority of groups have a significant number of players from the era where they never experiened or saw the TBC style - and everything they heard about it up untill now was probably mostly regarded the same was as "back in my day, I had to walk 5 miles to school, uphill - both ways, and in 6 feet of snow in the winter" - that while it may have been hard(er) or worse, it wasn't as bad as the stories made it seem.

I could clearly see in our raidgroup that the ones that were with us in TBC knew not to despair, but also that some of them were very impatient with others for not "focusing" enough - focusing here being low output of one kind or another - and teh frustration to moving on was mostly the younger people accepted, that had been accustomed to faster progress. This fed upon itself, naturally, and became a vicious circle because recruitment is also a pain in the butt.
Our experience was definately not unique - one of the other raiding guilds on our server fell apart, not once, but twice (Sag moved on just in time from the second collapse iirc).

tl;dr: The problem isn't one of "just get better" its a problem of what people have been conditioned to being changed massively instead of incrementally, and mostly the ones that were there when it was like this last time being the ones that can accept it.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:40 am

Then along comes T14 with super tight enrages and gear checks


What super tight enrages and gear checks? Garalon week 1 before they changed his Berserk by a minute?

Then along comes T15, with no catchup like previously seen in every expansion since the first - sorry you have to keep doing what you were doing.


Tier 15 has far more catchup than any expansion to date. Between 496 items through Valor points, gold, 502's in LFR, and 522 in VP, you can get far far more equipped for T15 than you could in any previous expansion's catchup.

The problem isn't one of "just get better" its a problem of what people have been conditioned to being changed massively instead of incrementally


I ask once again - can you please demonstrate how T15 is vastly out of sync with what can objectively be expected from imperfect players, and where the bar should be set on mechanics and how dangerous or forgiving they are, or dps requirements (from your point of view?)
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nooska » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:45 am

SUper tight enrages = Elegon (you'd bette rhave 6 people that can output enough dps in a short window to get the sparks down our you wipe) and Garalon, yes. I'm not talking unbeatable enrages, but super tight, when taking agroup of moderately skilled/moderately unskilled raiders - a group that in cata and wrath could expect to at least down the first heroic boss in an instance, if not more (excepting ruby sanctum).

And for T15 having more catchups, I'll refer you to Sag's excellent overview.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:59 am

SUper tight enrages = Elegon (you'd bette rhave 6 people that can output enough dps in a short window to get the sparks down our you wipe)


But that isn't what you had. You had 8 people, because Tanks were incredibly capable of soloing an add all the way up to 4th wave (which is all you really needed even in week 1), not to mention healers had room to dps adds between waves as well if people were resetting appropriately. More, these adds on 10-man Normal were exactly where you WANTED to pop DPS cooldowns, and the requirement on sparks that high? On week 1/2, our Destro Lock was already almost capable of 1-shotting a spark with a Chaos Bolt, and that was when we didn't even have all 463's.

And for T15 having more catchups, I'll refer you to Sag's excellent overview.


The main difference in that kind of overview is the perception that if you drop everything, you can finish all your catchup criteria in 2 days by chainrunning new instances. That definitely doesn't exist, but if we're suggesting that the second week to reach a similar point is somehow a big deal, that makes zero sense when the end area vaults you FAR, FAR beyond what you would even need to "enter" T15 to begin with.

That's not even taking into account the fact that when T9 or T10 came out, they were gated so heavily that you pretty much HAD to do something except for the new raid. For T9, it was zone in, Lolshot Beasts, and then sit around wondering what else to do for the rest of the week. It took a month for even the 2nd wing of ICC to even open up on Normal. That is a huge factor in the perceived "time lapse".
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:04 am

Darielle wrote:
Then along comes T15, with no catchup like previously seen in every expansion since the first - sorry you have to keep doing what you were doing.


Tier 15 has far more catchup than any expansion to date. Between 496 items through Valor points, gold, 502's in LFR, and 522 in VP, you can get far far more equipped for T15 than you could in any previous expansion's catchup.


Contrast: (Normal modes only)
T9 (ilvl 232-245): 1 5-man (219 loot), 226 and 232 items available from Justice, 245 available from Valor (w/o rep grind).
T10 (ilvl 251-264): 3 5-men (232 loot), 245 available from Justice, 251 and 264 available from Valor (w/o rep grind)
T12 (ilvl 378-384): 2 5-men (353 loot), 359 available from Justice, 378 available from Valor (w/o rep), 365 available after rep grind
T13 (ilvl 397-403): 3 5-men (378 loot), 378 available from Justice, 397 available from Valor (w/o rep), 390 from LFR (week 2 onwards)
T15 (ilvl 522-528): 5-man (463), 458 available from Justice, 489 and 496 available from Valor via previous rep grinds, 522 from Valor (with new rep), 483 from T14 LFR, 502 from T15 LFR (week 2 onwards).

There are two big differences:
First, on week 1, there is much less available (main culprit being the Valor stuff staying on Valor and no new 5men)
Second, there is going to be more and more available as weeks pass and T15LFR opens up, and Shado-pan Assault is completed. In fact, I'm enclined to believe that in a month's time, we'll have more catch-up options available than ever before.
But the point is - like you metnionned, the catch up has been slower, ramping up in speed in the first few weeks.

Now, please, as a REMINDER, I don't judge wether it's good or bad (for now). I just want to understand and restate why the perception exists, so that we have a better base than:

"Hurr, nerf T15!"
"Durr, get better noob!"

Paraphrased, but you get where that kind of "You!" - "No you!" argument leads.

EDIT:
The main difference in that kind of overview is the perception that if you drop everything, you can finish all your catchup criteria in 2 days by chainrunning new instances. That definitely doesn't exist, but if we're suggesting that the second week to reach a similar point is somehow a big deal, that makes zero sense when the end area vaults you FAR, FAR beyond what you would even need to "enter" T15 to begin with.


That's the kind of point I was trying to make: is a slower catch-up a good or bad thing?

That's not even taking into account the fact that when T9 or T10 came out, they were gated so heavily that you pretty much HAD to do something except for the new raid. For T9, it was zone in, Lolshot Beasts, and then sit around wondering what else to do for the rest of the week. It took a month for even the 2nd wing of ICC to even open up on Normal. That is a huge factor in the perceived "time lapse".


Irrelevant, and actually not a factor. The entire question is around how easy/hard it is for the "catching up" players to actually catch up. Trust me, those players would not have the luxury of bumping on that gating anyhow.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:16 am

Contrast: (Normal modes only)
T9 (ilvl 232-245): 1 5-man (219 loot), 226 and 232 items available from Justice, 245 available from Valor (w/o rep grind).
T10 (ilvl 251-264): 3 5-men (232 loot), 245 available from Justice, 251 and 264 available from Valor (w/o rep grind)
T12 (ilvl 378-384): 2 5-men (353 loot), 359 available from Justice, 378 available from Valor (w/o rep), 365 available after rep grind
T13 (ilvl 397-403): 3 5-men (378 loot), 378 available from Justice, 397 available from Valor (w/o rep), 390 from LFR (week 2 onwards)
T15 (ilvl 522-528): 5-man (463), 458 available from Justice, 489 and 496 available from Valor via previous rep grinds, 522 from Valor (with new rep), 483 from T14 LFR, 502 from T15 LFR (week 2 onwards).

There are two big differences:
First, on week 1, there is much less available (main culprit being the Valor stuff staying on Valor and no new 5men)
Second, there is going to be more and more available as weeks pass and T15LFR opens up, and Shado-pan Assault is completed. In fact, I'm enclined to believe that in a month's time, we'll have more catch-up options available than ever before.
But the point is - like you metnionned, the catch up has been slower, ramping up in speed in the first few weeks.


On the surface, that's true. However, differences involve:
- T14 had an upgrade vendor that already allowed you to get gear 8 into the 504's.
- T15 did not reset Valor points, which means unlike in previous tiers, you COULD get your Valor purchases out the gate. In a previous tier, even getting the 1250 VP item would not have been an option till Week 2 (again).
- The gating on content in T9 and T10 meant that the raid basically had an hour or so of content going into the patch, and that didn't change until almost a month after the patch went in.
- As a result, you either did old content anyway or plain didn't raid.
- This also had an effect on Tier pieces. I remember getting Trophies in week 1 and then having to wait 2 weeks to be able to buy the piece I wanted.
- What the 5-man gave you was gear from the previous level anyway, while the gear that you now obtain as a catchup is better off than the gear from the 5-mans. If you were actually raiding Ulduar when ToC came out, the 2 or so pieces that might have actually been upgrades in the 5-mans are more than made up by the fact that you have a 522 neck gifted and a shot at 502's (and a freebie boss in Jin'rokh).
- And that's the big thing. If you actually raided the old instance at the time the way people have been raiding T14 even though only clearing some of it, you already had all the old catchup items anyway. In T12, the 359's were nigh irrelevant because anyone who actually raided T11 HAD all the 359's anyway.

I can maybe see why there might be a perception that T15 is slower to catch up, but the reality? Not so much.

That's the kind of point I was trying to make: is a slower catch-up a good or bad thing?


A week? It's pretty much as insignificant as you could get.

Irrelevant, and actually not a factor. The entire question is around how easy/hard it is for the "catching up" players to actually catch up. Trust me, those players would not have the luxury of bumping on that gating anyhow.


It's definitely a factor. It meant that you did old content even if you didn't want to back in the day, pretty much using the old content as a catchup mechanism out of sheer boredom anyway.
TRUST ME, even "those players" got Beasts and the 1st wing of ICC down with pretty much no effort. Especially on 10-man, but even more so on 25-man. I know that from very personal experience.

To give you an idea, we had a Priest at the time who was Shadow and couldn't keep Misery up (Misery was a debuff that was applied every time you applied a dot and lasted 15 or so seconds). AKA out of 3 dots, he had a 65% uptime on any one dot at a time. The reason? He only had one action bar of 10 buttons active on his UI, so his dots were on different action bars and he wasn't able to page up and down fast enough to even keep ONE dot up all the time. That was the calibre of players >I< had, and we still oneshot Beasts (with half the raid dying on NOT ONE BUT TWO WORMS).

The REALLY scary thing looking back is that we actually killed Illidan when he was relevant. Although even that has a story, where one of our tanks emoraged because it took until Illidan for us to know that he didn't know what uncrittable was.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:28 am

Darielle wrote:
Contrast: (Normal modes only)
T9 (ilvl 232-245): 1 5-man (219 loot), 226 and 232 items available from Justice, 245 available from Valor (w/o rep grind).
T10 (ilvl 251-264): 3 5-men (232 loot), 245 available from Justice, 251 and 264 available from Valor (w/o rep grind)
T12 (ilvl 378-384): 2 5-men (353 loot), 359 available from Justice, 378 available from Valor (w/o rep), 365 available after rep grind
T13 (ilvl 397-403): 3 5-men (378 loot), 378 available from Justice, 397 available from Valor (w/o rep), 390 from LFR (week 2 onwards)
T15 (ilvl 522-528): 5-man (463), 458 available from Justice, 489 and 496 available from Valor via previous rep grinds, 522 from Valor (with new rep), 483 from T14 LFR, 502 from T15 LFR (week 2 onwards).

There are two big differences:
First, on week 1, there is much less available (main culprit being the Valor stuff staying on Valor and no new 5men)
Second, there is going to be more and more available as weeks pass and T15LFR opens up, and Shado-pan Assault is completed. In fact, I'm enclined to believe that in a month's time, we'll have more catch-up options available than ever before.
But the point is - like you metnionned, the catch up has been slower, ramping up in speed in the first few weeks.


On the surface, that's true. However, differences involve:


Here we go...

- T14 had an upgrade vendor that already allowed you to get gear 8 into the 504's.

IF you had drops from HoF. There are two bosses before Garalon. At best, you had three pieces from that raid. Further, that would mean abandonning a nice Valor/rep piece.

- T15 did not reset Valor points, which means unlike in previous tiers, you COULD get your Valor purchases out the gate. In a previous tier, even getting the 1250 VP item would not have been an option till Week 2 (again).

Do note that Valor back then gave current-tier rewards, while now, the only faction that actually grants current-tier material is mostly gated.

- The gating on content in T9 and T10 meant that the raid basically had an hour or so of content going into the patch, and that didn't change until almost a month after the patch went in.
- As a result, you either did old content anyway or plain didn't raid.
- This also had an effect on Tier pieces. I remember getting Trophies in week 1 and then having to wait 2 weeks to be able to buy the piece I wanted.

Irrelevant for those playing catch-up, unless I'm missing something, and then, I'd need a clarification, please.

- What the 5-man gave you was gear from the previous level anyway, while the gear that you now obtain as a catchup is better off than the gear from the 5-mans. If you were actually cleaning Ulduar when ToC came out, the 2 or so pieces that might have actually been upgrades in the 5-mans are more than made up by the fact that you have a 522 neck gifted and a shot at 502's (and a freebie boss in Jin'rokh).

FIFY and emphasis mine. Always try to keep in mind we're talking about people playing catch up. That means:
People working on the TItan Keepers in Ulduar, or on the Twins/Anub' in ToC.

- And that's the big thing. If you actually raided the old instance at the time the way people have been raiding T14 even though only clearing some of it, you already had all the old catchup items anyway. In T12, the 359's were nigh irrelevant because anyone who actually raided T11 HAD all the 359's anyway.

MEEP! Wrong premise - we're talking about people that were at 8/11 T11 or 5 or 6/7 T12. I was at 8/11 T11 for example, and still needed a couple pieces in ZG.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:38 am

LFR gear in the current system replaces the Justice and 5-man gear that was there in earlier tiers. It's a little more gated, but it's there, filling the same lower-ilevel bracket. In fact, by being above the ilevel of T14, ToT LFR gear is better than what you got from 5-mans and Justice in WotLK.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:39 am

KysenMurrin wrote:LFR gear in the current system replaces the Justice and 5-man gear that was there in earlier tiers. It's a little more gated, but it's there.


That actually makes a lot of sense. You're probably right.
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