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Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:35 pm
by halabar
Darielle wrote:Meh, it would have been out of place as a raid. As it was, it was a sandbox that tied in many parts of the world, and had one of the better questlines in the game (Onyxia).


True, and it was from the time where you were lucky to complete one dungeon a week. Agreed on Sunken Temple.. our raids now are what dungeons used to be.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:36 pm
by halabar
Teranoid wrote:The problem with BRD is when you zone in unless you're like 57 or something you have absolutely no idea which section you're on unless you meander your way around. It's to the point where I'd rather get 2 min of questing in between being steamrolled by bored lvl 90s than sit through another run of that hellhole.


Well, the problem is it's not broken up, but the quests are, and there's no way to know where the parts are, unless you ran it every day back in the day. Could be a raid now.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:46 pm
by Teranoid
halabar wrote:
Darielle wrote:Meh, it would have been out of place as a raid. As it was, it was a sandbox that tied in many parts of the world, and had one of the better questlines in the game (Onyxia).


True, and it was from the time where you were lucky to complete one dungeon a week. Agreed on Sunken Temple.. our raids now are what dungeons used to be.


But those were also designed in a time where it was widely accepted that you had to raid 20+ hours a week to kill raid bosses so 4 1/2 hour dungeons were a given.

Now people can't even sit through a 10 min heroic or spend more than 2 hours wiping on a boss before crying its too hard.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:13 pm
by Lieris
It makes me sad that there is no place in the game for huge dungeons like BRD. When leveling my second paladin I did a lot of BRD and BRS via LFD and other than a few frustrations they worked surprisingly well (maybe I got lucky?) but the people who hate them are more vocal than those who enjoy them. I like the idea of a dungeon actually feeling like a dungeon, filled with quests, lore, rooms, locked doors and optional bosses instead of a series of corridors you blast through in 15 minutes just to get your badges or whatever.

I can understand why they were hated back in vanilla but I put that down to crippling tank shortages and people not knowing how to play the game back then rather than them being bad dungeons.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:21 pm
by Flex
Lieris wrote:I can understand why they were hated back in vanilla but I put that down to crippling tank shortages and people not knowing how to play the game back then rather than them being bad dungeons.


Wasn't a big hatred for BRD being the huge level range it was designed for? Low 50s to high 50s in one dungeon just served as an annoyance.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:31 pm
by djlar
So they did Water (ice) on Wotlk, fire (firelands, bigarse firebreathing dragon on Cata), IDK about Pandaria, new land AKA earth? so what's left is wind, next xpac could be in the sky... (and no more continents to surface on Azeroth)

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:34 pm
by Klaudandus
We already killed the Wind elemental guy...

we could go back to space though!

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:37 pm
by Lieris
Flex wrote:
Lieris wrote:I can understand why they were hated back in vanilla but I put that down to crippling tank shortages and people not knowing how to play the game back then rather than them being bad dungeons.


Wasn't a big hatred for BRD being the huge level range it was designed for? Low 50s to high 50s in one dungeon just served as an annoyance.


That probably didn't help either.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:37 pm
by halabar
Lieris wrote:It makes me sad that there is no place in the game for huge dungeons like BRD. When leveling my second paladin I did a lot of BRD and BRS via LFD and other than a few frustrations they worked surprisingly well (maybe I got lucky?) but the people who hate them are more vocal than those who enjoy them. I like the idea of a dungeon actually feeling like a dungeon, filled with quests, lore, rooms, locked doors and optional bosses instead of a series of corridors you blast through in 15 minutes just to get your badges or whatever.

I can understand why they were hated back in vanilla but I put that down to crippling tank shortages and people not knowing how to play the game back then rather than them being bad dungeons.


The only thing that I dislike about BRD now is the fact that you are lost in regards to what areas to go to at what levels. They should adjust it so it's just a lvl 57 dungeon with a ton of quests. Would be more fun and much less confusing.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:41 pm
by Klaudandus
I'd rather level in blasted lands than do BRD on LFD
Image

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:04 pm
by KysenMurrin
What they need to do for a big instance like that to work is make a few different end-boss runs (like the current "prison" and "Emperor" ones), and bring in features that highlight the boss you need to kill for the bonus on the map. Some streamlining of the instance and better highlighting of the routes on the map would help, too (there are major overlapping sections where you just can't tell which levels connect where).

You still have a huge instance you can zone into and explore in full, but when you go in through dungeon finder you get specific "missions" to particular sections.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:24 pm
by Chunes
I was one of the masochistic few that enjoyed ST and BRD back in the day. Hell, with ST I dedicated a fair amount of time to just memorizing the optimal path through it down to the point of memorizing the order of the statues and helping the group spread out so we could activate them faster.

BRD's main issue as I remember it was just the absurdly wide level range.

I'm all for huge, sprawly dungeons as opposed to the "loot corridors" someone described above, but when you think of the attention span of the average player these days, they'd never really get into that kind of thing.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:26 pm
by Fenris
Klaudandus wrote:We already killed the Wind elemental guy...

we could go back to space though!

"Alleria and Turalyon have not been seen for years"

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:23 pm
by jere
Chunes wrote:I was one of the masochistic few that enjoyed ST and BRD back in the day. Hell, with ST I dedicated a fair amount of time to just memorizing the optimal path through it down to the point of memorizing the order of the statues and helping the group spread out so we could activate them faster.


I also loved Sunken Temple. One of my favorites. Though, the last boss was a lot more difficult as a paladin tank when you didn't have taunt.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:18 pm
by Teranoid
Man they weren't kidding about pacing LFR.

Full LFR doesn't unlock until April 16th.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:29 pm
by Klaudandus
Teranoid wrote:Man they weren't kidding about pacing LFR.

Full LFR doesn't unlock until April 16th.


Image

Holy fuck, that is retarded!

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:58 pm
by Darielle
These dungeons lately have been bad enough with tanks that don't speak english/have never been there before/ignore party chat that I couldn't imagine sitting through "OKAY WAIT WE HAVE TO DO THESE STATUES THE RIGHT WAY OTHERWI- oh fuck it.. /leave group"

The problem with BRD is when you zone in unless you're like 57 or something you have absolutely no idea which section you're on unless you meander your way around. It's to the point where I'd rather get 2 min of questing in between being steamrolled by bored lvl 90s than sit through another run of that hellhole.


That's not a problem with the dungeon. As I said, it's from a different era. Meandering through the dungeon WAS the thing back in the day. The biggest thing about a place like Sunken Temple and navigation was that instance maps back in the day sucked (they didn't exist, you just saw the zone), and the minimap did and still sucks at handling multiple levels. BRD suffers less from that, but the wide level range, the massively long run, etc. did not help it at all.

What you're observing is the effect of LFD on top of the super-acceleration of efficiency and ridiculously short runs for loot. People complain about 20-30 minutes in a dungeon nowadays. Chuck a bit of heirlooms and the entire levelling process pretty much becoming destroyed, and a place like BRD seems pretty much out of place, but it fit perfectly back in its time, and its purpose was a lot more relevant when it still had relevance from the little things within (Onyxia questline, Black Forge/Grim Guzzler/MC rep), and so on.

If they'd put a bit of work into it, the two wouldn't necessarily be mutually exclusive (e.g., LFD puts you in a different instance where a set area is unlocked, you kill stuff and get done).

Holy fuck, that is retarded!


It keeps the idea of Normal mode being more relevant and prevents LFR people being bored with the patch by the end of April in one swoop.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:33 pm
by Fetzie
Yeah, BRD's problem was that you started the instance at level 48-50, but if you weren't all level 57+ you weren't going to get the the end in one run. I guess the 4 hour run was a turn-off for some too.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:39 pm
by Klaudandus
Darielle wrote:
Holy fuck, that is retarded!


It keeps the idea of Normal mode being more relevant and prevents LFR people being bored with the patch by the end of April in one swoop.


I wonder if 5.2 is gonna be easier in normal than 5.0 was -- several of the fights were pretty tight in their tuning, even GC admitted erring in garalon, as an example.

but still dont see why 2 weeks between part 2 and 3, and 2 weeks between part 3 and 4.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:57 pm
by halabar
Klaudandus wrote:
Darielle wrote:
Holy fuck, that is retarded!


It keeps the idea of Normal mode being more relevant and prevents LFR people being bored with the patch by the end of April in one swoop.


I wonder if 5.2 is gonna be easier in normal than 5.0 was -- several of the fights were pretty tight in their tuning, even GC admitted erring in garalon, as an example.

but still dont see why 2 weeks between part 2 and 3, and 2 weeks between part 3 and 4.


They posted about that...

Basically, the wanted to give the LFR crew 2 wings fairly early, but push the other 2 out so guilds doing normal progression would have a better chance to see it on normal first, rather than have already been farming it in LFR for weeks.

Since they are providing 2 wings reasonably early, I don't mind, it will still allow for earning the raid rep.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:29 am
by Archeth
Fetzie wrote:Yeah, BRD's problem was that you started the instance at level 48-50, but if you weren't all level 57+ you weren't going to get the the end in one run. I guess the 4 hour run was a turn-off for some too.

That's a problem now. It wasn't a problem when BRD was relevant because you weren't supposed to clear the whole place in one run, it was more of an instanced zone to adventure/quest in so only finishing a part that matched your level, for you to return later for more, that was working as intended.

Obviously that's not how most players, especially nowadays, want to run instances.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:46 am
by bldavis
crap i LOVED running BRD and ST back when they were PITAs and required full 4-5 hr runs
i still prefer doing all of BRD in one go if i can...and actually miss the old ST

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:48 am
by KysenMurrin
For ST, I do think I'd have preferred them to remove only the basement, and not the upper level with the trolls.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:55 am
by Sagara
I liked Lower ST as well, but only in a decent group. I wouldn't have minded having LFG only cover the top floor if we had the complete dungeon when zoning with a normal group.

Still, imagine: ST and BRD CHallenge Marathons. The horror!

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:28 am
by bldavis
Gold : 3:27:15
silver: 4:14:29
bronze: sub 7 hrs