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Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:15 pm
by Flex
That was the stated reasoning why they haven't implemented it before.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:20 pm
by halabar
Flex wrote:That was the stated reasoning why they haven't implemented it before.


And GC's response seems to indicate that they're willing to try to risk the griefing, much as they are with the new Trex world boss.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:28 pm
by Flex
Judging how they had to implement changes to pet battles to prevent griefing in PvP matches I have little hope for this system to last longer than 2 weeks without big changes.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:45 pm
by melisandyr
Which is really sad. The shared looting and credit system in GW2 is one of the most refreshing features.

It's really a problem that the design team have made for themselves, with the acquisition of loot being at the pinnacle of WoW achievement for too many people.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:56 pm
by benebarba
melisandyr wrote:Which is really sad. The shared looting and credit system in GW2 is one of the most refreshing features.

It's really a problem that the design team have made for themselves, with the acquisition of loot being at the pinnacle of WoW achievement for too many people.


I think your last point is important, but not the only problem.

I am not sure I even understand where another person tagging resulted boosting the health of the mob even seemed like a reasonable idea. It shouldn't have left the whiteboard. Now, the Diablo idea of boosting it if you were in a group and the other members were in the vicinity? Sure, though I think loot would also need to be added since it's no longer the original 1-on-1 encounter.

To be honest, I don't think I'd give a crap if someone else hit a mob once, got credit and a chance at loot if the fight and loot didn't change for me. Hell, it'd make questing a whole lot less annoying early on when zones are packed. I would definitely care if there was a way for a new player to 'steal' credit from me (say if they did more damage to a particular mob before it died).

If it is only being thought about for rare spawns... this is where I think it's the loot that becomes an issue more than achievements, etc. Either they'd have to adjust the spawn rates or individual drop rates (assuming each person gets a separate roll/loot table) or simply accept that what would probably be a small percentage more people will get said loot.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:07 pm
by halabar
benebarba wrote:
melisandyr wrote:Which is really sad. The shared looting and credit system in GW2 is one of the most refreshing features.

It's really a problem that the design team have made for themselves, with the acquisition of loot being at the pinnacle of WoW achievement for too many people.


I think your last point is important, but not the only problem.

I am not sure I even understand where another person tagging resulted boosting the health of the mob even seemed like a reasonable idea. It shouldn't have left the whiteboard. Now, the Diablo idea of boosting it if you were in a group and the other members were in the vicinity? Sure, though I think loot would also need to be added since it's no longer the original 1-on-1 encounter.

To be honest, I don't think I'd give a crap if someone else hit a mob once, got credit and a chance at loot if the fight and loot didn't change for me. Hell, it'd make questing a whole lot less annoying early on when zones are packed. I would definitely care if there was a way for a new player to 'steal' credit from me (say if they did more damage to a particular mob before it died).

If it is only being thought about for rare spawns... this is where I think it's the loot that becomes an issue more than achievements, etc. Either they'd have to adjust the spawn rates or individual drop rates (assuming each person gets a separate roll/loot table) or simply accept that what would probably be a small percentage more people will get said loot.


It seemed like the rolls were individual (Sha system), but that wasn't totally clear.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:39 am
by econ21
I've been reading up on the first boss of the new raid (Jin'rokh). It sounds like a non-trivial dps check - for 10N, some calculate you need about 120k dps each dps player including the 40% buff you periodically get from the water sometimes, so maybe 100k dps without it. My guild is quite away off that (ilevel is typically 485-490ish) but I am wondering what is the best fight in the current tier to assess dps? i.e. to check when we have the 100k dps or so?

I guess the easiest thing is just to periodically try the Jin'rokh fight itself. But is there a current fight we could look without too much distortion from damage buffs or downtime when people can't dps? I guess the first three in MSV might qualify? The dps seem pretty free to go all out on them.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:59 am
by KysenMurrin
Gara'jal and Stone Guard are not good for judging, as there's the buff on one and cleave on the other. Feng is probably the best bet. First two in HoF aren't bad for it, though ranged have to move a lot. Empress is pretty stand-still during p1 and p3, as is Sha of Fear on the main platform.

You're right 100k per person could be close for a 10N guild. How often is that damage buff up?

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:44 am
by KysenMurrin
This is looking further than 5.2, but I dunno which other thread would be appropriate. Just read dev interview summaries on MMO-Champ. Stringing a few things together:

- They're sticking to the story-tier-story-tier patch cycle.
- They'll continue to release the patches every 2-3 months
- Orgrimmar will be patch 5.4 (another 3-tier expansion, then. Guess WotLK will prove to be the sole exception).
- They're organising their team to avoid the last tier being a long wait for the next expansion.

This suggests we'll have the final tier around September, and a new expansion possibly in the first half of 2014. (Could this be the first time they actually succeed in a 1.5 year expansion cycle instead of taking 2 years? I will remain skeptical unless they launch the public beta straight after Blizzcon (at the latest).)

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:59 am
by econ21
KysenMurrin wrote:You're right 100k per person could be close for a 10N guild. How often is that damage buff up?


The back of the envelope calculation I read assumed 66% uptime.

Looking at Icy Veins, the 120k dps figure assumes 5 dps. It's 100k dps with 6 dps. So if we have a 40% buff for 66% of the time, I make it that you would need 80k dps. That's more attainable.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:27 am
by KysenMurrin
Oh, yeah, that'd be pretty easy to hit, then.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:02 am
by Fetzie
How long does the buff last? You could use blood-lust at a point in the fight when most/all have the 40% damage buff to inflate your dps higher than normal.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:06 am
by econ21
Fetzie wrote:How long does the buff last? You could use blood-lust at a point in the fight when most/all have the 40% damage buff to inflate your dps higher than normal.


I was reading the strategy on Icy Veins and yes, that's what they recommend. The buff comes from standing in some pools of water that periodically you have to leave. So using blood-lust when you have just settled down in a pool, well before you have to leave, is recommended. That would lessen the raw dps requirement as you say. It's all back of the envelope calculations - we'll know better when we see logs. The feedback from the ptr was that the dps check seemed a little tight and those testers had 502 gear, so I suspect it's not going to be feasible for my guild in high 480s/low 490s. But it might be worth a try.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:58 am
by Flex
The main encounter designer said that Jin'Rokh should be doable for people who are still on Garalon in the Tier 14 raids when the patch hits as it is more a fight dance than raw numbers encounter.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:58 am
by honorshammer
Lead Encounter Designer Ion Hazzikostas

guilds that haven't finished Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring are likely going to run into difficulty keeping up with the fights much past Council of Elders, the third encounter in Throne of Thunder. The zone is tuned for people who have completed the previous tier of raiding. When 5.2 arrives, we're reducing the difficulty of the 5.0 raids, in part to help guilds that weren't quite able to get through all the 5.0 bosses get caught up.


If your guild runs into a roadblock on Normal mode, consider revisiting any 5.0 raids that you never finished, or trying some of the 5.0 Heroics for more gear upgrades to complement the ilvl-522 and -528 gear you'll be getting from your Throne of Thunder kills each week.


Source: http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/02/28/guild ... zzikostas/

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:18 am
by KysenMurrin
All this patch 5.2 lore stuff that's coming out, and what the Zandalari are doing in it, has got me thinking that WoW 6.0 is going to be the south seas and Zandalari Empire.

(Think about it, the Trolls are confident enough to go around reviving Lei Shen so he can be their ally, and throwing in a whole load of their forces as front line fodder - the Empire back home has got to be more powerful than the enemies we're facing in MoP. And giving them this much prominence in MoP then putting them on the back burner for a full expansion again doesn't seem likely. Straight after MoP is the ideal time to finally dive into their story.)

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:27 am
by Flex
An entire expansion of nothing but troll instances...imagine the gear!

In one of the story interviews, pretty sure the wow insider one, they talked about the troll prophet that saw the need to unite the clans after the Cataclysm, then they talked about Wrathion's vision of The Burning Legion coming back and his plan to forcefully unite the factions by having one conquer the other. I'd not be surprised if they tie those together in said troll expansion.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:29 am
by Sagara
Well, we still have Zandalar that's slowly sinking, and Azshara is still out there with Neptulon in thrall. Azshara being so close to BOTH the Legion and the Old Gods, she'd be a nice tie-in for something else...

In fact, taking Azshara down could open a nice little platform for us moving on againt either of those.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:35 am
by KysenMurrin
I'd forgotten Azshara. That would solve the problem of how you fill in 3-4 raid tiers in a Troll expansion (intro tier, Azshara tier, Zul tier).

For some reason I don't think they'll do a full-on Legion invasion next expansion, so soon after downing Garrosh. It'd be the one after, with some more in-game foreshadowing. I could very easily be wrong, though.

(Aaaand, I've derailed the thread. Maybe I should have posted in the Interesting Lore thread after all.)

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:42 am
by Flex
KysenMurrin wrote:I'd forgotten Azshara. That would solve the problem of how you fill in 3-4 raid tiers in a Troll expansion (intro tier, Azshara tier, Zul tier).

For some reason I don't think they'll do a full-on Legion invasion next expansion, so soon after downing Garrosh. It'd be the one after, with some more in-game foreshadowing. I could very easily be wrong, though.

(Aaaand, I've derailed the thread. Maybe I should have posted in the Interesting Lore thread after all.)


Well the Zul Tier could have the big reveal that the troll prophet was a Legion forerunner sent to disrupt and eliminate the races that have defeated the Legion previously. And then you get 6 months of raiding that tier and hearing the threats of doom!

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:50 pm
by Sagara
DOOOOOOOOOOM!

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:48 pm
by Newsom
Lots of interviews went up yesterday on various fansites.

BlizzPlanet wrote:Ghostcrawler hinted at an unannounced feature in this expansion that is going to really change how WoW is going to be played, much like the LFR feature – can we get a hint on when we might see this feature and what it might pertain to?
Tom Chilton wrote:We will probably see it in the 5.4 neighborhood if we are able to get it done in time. As far as hints a lot of players in the past have suggested that they be able to do older content so it’s probably something that goes along those lines.

(Source)

So level scaling? We know they kinda have the tech already, at least for gear.

My gut reaction is "meh".

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:57 am
by Darielle
econ21 wrote:I've been reading up on the first boss of the new raid (Jin'rokh). It sounds like a non-trivial dps check - for 10N, some calculate you need about 120k dps each dps player including the 40% buff you periodically get from the water sometimes, so maybe 100k dps without it. My guild is quite away off that (ilevel is typically 485-490ish) but I am wondering what is the best fight in the current tier to assess dps? i.e. to check when we have the 100k dps or so?

I guess the easiest thing is just to periodically try the Jin'rokh fight itself. But is there a current fight we could look without too much distortion from damage buffs or downtime when people can't dps? I guess the first three in MSV might qualify? The dps seem pretty free to go all out on them.


One thing to bear in mind that on the PTR, they just use the blanket amount that they put people's gear scaled up to. The dps check might just not be as hard when the encounter is actually live.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:01 am
by econ21
Last night my guild was only averaged 53k dps per dpser on the two bosses up to Garalon (took the whole evening too; second time we've done them). So there's quite a distance between the first boss of the new tier being open to those working on Garalon and it requiring 80k dps.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:13 am
by Darielle
econ21 wrote:Last night my guild was only averaged 53k dps per dpser on the two bosses up to Garalon (took the whole evening too; second time we've done them). So there's quite a distance between the first boss of the new tier being open to those working on Garalon and it requiring 80k dps.


DPS buff, easy and quick gear upgrades as soon as the patch goes live.