patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:25 pm

No one said we could only talk about Paladins here. ;) I've been a Shaman main for a couple of years now.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:43 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:No one said we could only talk about Paladins here. ;) I've been a Shaman main for a couple of years now.


Indeed.. :-)

And I can't see how that trinket would be really useful for any of the agi classes. The trinket would hard-cap MM mastery, while gimping at the same time due to no crit, or push haste past GCD points making much of the increase useless. At best you would want it for crit, but even then the value diminishes with the huge increases. I don't even want to try to figure out what it would do for a feral.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:12 pm

In other news, one of the trinkets they're adding in 5.2 is really weird. It snapshots your current Haste/Crit/Mastery, and gives you a buff that removes the two lower stats and adds the amount to the highest one. It's going to give some odd interactions - like crit chance being close to zero when it procs Mastery or Haste, which could affect proc rates on other abilities and items. Any toon where Crit/Haste/Mastery are about equal in value will get next to no dps increase from it.

GC made an interesting point regarding Enhancement and the mastery proc's interaction with Ascendance, which could be pretty nice, but at the same time, the loss of Crit and Haste has a negative interaction with Flurry and Unleashed Fury: Windfury.


It'll only affect things like Crit from actual Crit Rating (as opposed to, say, Crit from Agility) so it'll hit subratings, but not quite as hard.
It's still a pretty terrible trinket though on the surface - Bears and BM's will avoid it, Hunters may find it useful, Cat can maybe get use of the Mastery proc and a Dream build to put up some souped builds.

What I can see the trinket allowing (if they don't fix it) is for something like WW's getting the proc, getting Tigereye Brew with the higher Mastery, and then CANCELLING the trinket proc, so they get a persistent buff and then go back to Normal within a few seconds. But that's even more terrible than just being bad, because it's just shitty design to actually use the trinket.

I don't even want to try to figure out what it would do for a feral.


As Feral, you'd be going for MAstery for 200% increased Bleed damage, refresh a Rip/Rake and then probably cancel the buff right away.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Zalaria » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:17 pm

halabar wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:No one said we could only talk about Paladins here. ;) I've been a Shaman main for a couple of years now.


Indeed.. :-)

And I can't see how that trinket would be really useful for any of the agi classes. The trinket would hard-cap MM mastery, while gimping at the same time due to no crit, or push haste past GCD points making much of the increase useless. At best you would want it for crit, but even then the value diminishes with the huge increases. I don't even want to try to figure out what it would do for a feral.


Most ferals go for mastery, I believe. For the duration of the trinket, they'd have increased bleed damage (mastery), reduced energy regen & swing speed (haste), and no extra combo points (crit). Looking at my own feral (ilvl 484), the trinket would give me roughly 2/3 more mastery rating, taking me from ~60% mastery to ~80% on roughly half of my damage sources. 1/8th increase on 1/2 the damage gives 1/16th damage increase from the stat gain portion, roughly +9k dps for the duration given 70k overall dps. That's extremely rough calculation, but seems decent. I'm not sure what effect the stat loss portion would have though. That's harder to guess at.

I can say I'd be annoyed at the lack of extra combo points though. That's already frustrating enough when the RNG does it.




re: cancelling it. Don't dots update to your current stats these days? So if you cancel it, wouldn't your dots lose the bonus damage?


Another interesting thing. According to mmo-champion's database all three versions of the trinket use the same proc effect, meaning the only gain from LFR->normal->heroic is in the agility portion of the trinket.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:19 pm

Stats (Crit etc.) yes. %buffs is another story. Those calculate on application.

It's why Dream of Cenarius works as well as it does when you time the Dream buff to work on your dots.
Last edited by Darielle on Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:19 pm

re: cancelling it. Don't dots update to your current stats these days? So if you cancel it, wouldn't your dots lose the bonus damage?

Usually only update on refresh or application.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Zalaria » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:21 pm

Interesting. Good to know.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:44 pm

Zalaria wrote:Another interesting thing. According to mmo-champion's database all three versions of the trinket use the same proc effect, meaning the only gain from LFR->normal->heroic is in the agility portion of the trinket.


Still, considering the weirdness of that proc, I'd much rather have the:

agi with haste proc, or
mastery with agi proc (plus voodoo gnomes!!!!)

also should be noted that that odd one procs on being hit, so it's possible that for some classes it may not proc at all unless it factors in aoe damage and such, depending on the fight.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fenris » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:47 pm

Oh well,the SoJ change is going to be reverted

I'm sooo surprised.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:22 pm

Another interesting thing. According to mmo-champion's database all three versions of the trinket use the same proc effect, meaning the only gain from LFR->normal->heroic is in the agility portion of the trinket.


While the gain from upgrading your trinket in the proc stays stagnant, your proc scales with all upgrades on any other slots, so the overall scaling is the same.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:53 pm

Another interesting thing. According to mmo-champion's database all three versions of the trinket use the same proc effect, meaning the only gain from LFR->normal->heroic is in the agility portion of the trinket.


That's not quite how trinket procs work these days. Since MoP, procs scale with the item's item level (and even your character's level I believe). If they hadn't done this, you could potentially cheese challenge modes by using high item level trinkets. Database sites seem to have trouble picking up the scaling properly in their tooltips (armory example).

Edit: took that quote out of context. Disregard my post.
Last edited by Newsom on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:02 pm

Newsom wrote:
Another interesting thing. According to mmo-champion's database all three versions of the trinket use the same proc effect, meaning the only gain from LFR->normal->heroic is in the agility portion of the trinket.


That's not quite how trinket procs work these days. Since MoP, procs scale with the item's item level (and even your character's level I believe). If they hadn't done this, you could potentially cheese challenge modes by using high item level trinkets. Database sites seem to have trouble picking up the scaling properly in their tooltips (armory example).


He's talking about the agi trinket with the proc that shifts crit/haste/mastery to the highest of the three, and frankly it's kind of obvious that the proc for that one would be the same for all three versions - how exactly would they make it different?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:21 pm

Someone on the official forums suggested something like 80%/100%/120% of your stats, but that has a clear problem - double-dip scaling when it scales off the stats of your other slots AND has a % scalar.

The trinket itself would be better as a "Converts 50% of your low stats, increases this converted amount by 100%, THEN tacks it onto your Highest stat". Then you're actually gaining something. At that point, you could even get into "Converts 50%, up to 2500", and it works out to an exact gain of 5000 free stat (on top of the value of 5000 converted stats), and THEN you can scale on the trinket to go increases by 100%/120%/140%.

It's not bad as a flavour concept, but poorly polished.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:44 am

They're sort of in a hard spot in trinket design. It is tough to make a new and interesting design that beats out the traditional designs.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:17 am

Flex wrote:They're sort of in a hard spot in trinket design. It is tough to make a new and interesting design that beats out the traditional designs.


Same goes for some armor designs.. coughhunterdurrlookwhatIjustkilledI'mwearingitdurrcough...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:21 am

halabar wrote:
Flex wrote:They're sort of in a hard spot in trinket design. It is tough to make a new and interesting design that beats out the traditional designs.


Same goes for some armor designs.. coughhunterdurrlookwhatIjustkilledI'mwearingitdurrcough...


Makes perfect sense for hunters to skin and make armor from their kills, just like all rogue gear should mimic the minions of the faction they're going to kill so they can easily sneak in and kill.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:42 am

Flex wrote:
halabar wrote:
Flex wrote:They're sort of in a hard spot in trinket design. It is tough to make a new and interesting design that beats out the traditional designs.


Same goes for some armor designs.. coughhunterdurrlookwhatIjustkilledI'mwearingitdurrcough...


Makes perfect sense for hunters to skin and make armor from their kills, just like all rogue gear should mimic the minions of the faction they're going to kill so they can easily sneak in and kill.


The problem is, hunters are skinning and wearing murlocs.. and yaks.. and sauroks.. what's gonna happen in the last patch of Mists and we are raiding Orgrimmar.. hunters skinning and wearing those terrifying little boars outside of Org?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:44 am

Orcslayer Battlegear. Kinda awkward if you're an orc hunter.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:47 am

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:16 pm

They're sort of in a hard spot in trinket design. It is tough to make a new and interesting design that beats out the traditional designs.


Poppycock.

The issue is a compound of:
- They don't fully look at trinkets from the point of view of the users, so they typically end with either one or more that are just plain overpowered, and then a couple of others that are pretty much crap. The trinket that requires a Dodge proc is an extremely good example of this, but even things like Vial that went live and had to be readjusted because apparently no one thought they might get used by players against players count on that issue.
- They don't iterate very hard on trinket design once they have an idea. At best, they adjust proc rates slightly. If they have a bad design, they will just pretend it doesn't exist, especially if that makes the trinket correspondingly bad, therefore there's no issue of overpowered players running around in PvP.

The problem is, hunters are skinning and wearing murlocs.. and yaks.. and sauroks.. what's gonna happen in the last patch of Mists and we are raiding Orgrimmar.. hunters skinning and wearing those terrifying little boars outside of Org?


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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:34 pm

Darielle wrote:They don't fully look at trinkets from the point of view of the users


Because if players had their way Trinkets would be nothing but stat/stat proc on a predictable timer. Which is pretty much the exact opposite of what Blizzard really wants to do every tier.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:44 pm

Because if players had their way Trinkets would be nothing but stat/stat proc on a predictable timer.


You could have at least pretended to read the rest of that instead of taking the line out of context.
Players don't have an interest in wanting plain stat/stat procs. If anything, players complain that so many trinkets ARE straight stat/statproc.

The actual issue that results from that is that you have trinkets that wind up underwhelming or overpowered, with very little in between. It didn't take a genius to figure that Vial would be used by players in PvP, or that one of the only trinkets in the tier being a dot-proc kinda means Arcane is stuck (although now that Bombs are talents, ~, but that's horrible in itself), etc. THOSE are what "considering them from the point of view of the users" involve.

As a result, they get this broad range between the hilariousness that was Mirror and how good it was (cause hey, we certainly hadn't had precedent from Sindy's Fang that a resist proc is usable far beyond its intended level), and the horribleness that was, say, Corpse Tongue Coin. Even stat/stat procs fail that boat because some stats are just SO bad for classes that a 509+8 barely beats a 463+8, and falls beind DMC.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:18 pm

Blizzard wrote:Arena and Rated Battleground Season 12 is scheduled to end on Wednesday, March 6. At that point, we will determine who is eligible for the end-of-season rewards, a process that should take approximately one week. It's very important for players who feel that they may be eligible for Arena titles and/or the Malevolent Gladiator's Cloud Serpent to refrain from transferring their characters to another realm or faction until after Season 12 ends. The awarding of Season 12 titles and mounts will occur approximately two weeks after the season ends.

At the end of the season, Conquest Points will be converted to Honor Points and any honor above 4000 will be converted to gold at a rate of 35 silver per point. The honor cap will remain at 4000.

All Season 12 items will cost Honor Points (equivalent to their previous Conquest Point cost) when the season ends, with the exception of any items with rating requirements attached. These items will no longer be available for purchase.

The next Arena and Rated Battleground season will begin approximately one week after the current season ends. During the break between seasons, all Rated Battleground and Arena matches will be unavailable. Team and Personal Ratings will be reset when Season 13 begins.


Looks like we have 2 more weeks before the patch hits?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:33 pm

Klaudandus wrote:"I carry my family with me, my cousin ortuk is now my shouldergard!"


This made me fall off the chair :D
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fenris » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:06 pm

We like our recent change to a lower cooldown on Avenging Wrath for Retribution in PvP. We like it so much that we want to make it a baseline change for Retribution and not a set bonus, since many PvE paladins are benefiting from shorter wings today, and our recent DPS testing suggests that Ret needs a DPS buff. However, this does mean changing the existing T14 4pc PvE bonus.


So the list of changes reads like this:

Retribution has a two minute cooldown on Avenging Wrath baseline.
We are reverting the PvP set bonus change. The Retribution set bonuses remain as they are on live. This line will no longer appear in patch notes.
We are changing the T14 4pc PvE bonus to +10% damage on Seals and Judgment. We want you to graduate to the T15 set bonus fairly quickly and you won't be losing the shorter Avenging Wrath cooldown.
Retribution damage was too low, but as I mentioned above, we buffed it through more frequent use of Avenging Wrath.

I'm a cinic but i can't avoid reading that "we liked it a lot" as "we have no idea how to actually fix your low sustained damage so here,take the shorter cd burst spikes"

But again,a buff is a buff...
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