patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:36 pm

boneyjellyfish wrote:
Worldie wrote:
boneyjellyfish wrote:Here's an idea: successful parries increase your haste % by dodge % for x seconds. Haste rating no longer has any effect other than on white attacks except that 50% of it becomes parry rating. Numbers can obviously be tweaked.

Our haste gear retains most of its value but it gives us an incentive to stack parry and dodge. The more parry and dodge we have, the more fun our gameplay is and the better we are at tanking.

No offence but that sounds extremely complicate and unintuitive. Blizzard hates complicate things.


The seed of my idea was to turn the concept of "parry haste" into parry actually providing haste. I didn't think it was too complicated. :(


Too many interacting elements that have little to no connection to other known mechanics. Compare with their new iteration of GC: they took something existing (GC) and retrofitted it to fix one of their problem. Look at theck's other proposals - most of them are very basic.

It's the old K.I.S.S. approach.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:53 am

Also, in discussion, lets keep in mind that nowhere has anyone stated that they want us to stack dodge and/or parry. Just that they were unhappy with how low we valued dodge/parry compared to haste. They want to bring down the relative value of haste compared to the relative value of avoidance (which they want to increase so they both move towards the middle).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Winkle » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:08 am

Surely haste will remain the more valuable stat though since it deceases the interval between CS use and thus increases the likely hood of GC procs.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:32 pm

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Here is the current PTR Seal of Justice: Fills you with Holy Light, causing melee attacks (and Judgment) to apply Justice to your target. Justice: The attacking Paladin's next Templar's Verdict striking this target will also deal 25% weapon damage as Holy per application of Justice. Stacks up to 5 times. Lasts 15 sec. Undispellable. Using the TV consumes the stack. The Justice proc itself is not affected by mastery, nor is the mastery proc from TV counted for purposes of how hard Justice hits.

We understand the concern that this superficially looks a little like the old Taste for Blood. Taste for Blood was designed to be very random in order to limit the planning the warrior could do and limit its frequency. (It was also off the GCD, a buff rather than a debuff which made it feel even less predictable to the victim, and stackable with other big hits like Heroic Leap.) Justice is designed to be a very predictable mechanic in order to unload some decent damage even when GoaK and wings are on CD. Yes, it will be even bigger when stacked with CDs. Big hits that take a lot of planning and give their target plenty of notification and opportunities to counter are more acceptable than those that come out of the blue.

We also understand the concern that this forces paladins into taking Burden of Guilt if they want a snare. However, that is offset by the data that suggests some (but not all) paladins take Burden today (meaning the cost for taking it isn't too great), but hardly anyone uses the current Seal of Justice today; i.e. most Rets are running around with no snare at all.

On the other hand, if Ret still isn't going to use this new Justice, then there is no reason to change it, and we could just leave it as a dead spell for 5.2.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=40#799
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:53 am

Nooska wrote:Also, in discussion, lets keep in mind that nowhere has anyone stated that they want us to stack dodge and/or parry. Just that they were unhappy with how low we valued dodge/parry compared to haste. They want to bring down the relative value of haste compared to the relative value of avoidance (which they want to increase so they both move towards the middle).

My concern is that any attempt to do that has to make dodge/parry more attractive than haste if it has any hope of being effective. And they were pretty much there with the "proc on avoidance only" version. Sliding some of that chance back to CS/HotR will shift the balance back towards haste, and might be enough such that we'll still prefer haste. As much fun as haste-stacking is, it isn't a good situation for tank plate.

Also, for those complaining about single-target DPS nerfs: it's not really a concern at this point. Buffing or nerfing damage is easy, they have more than enough knobs to do that. They're not going to make this change and accidentally nerf our DPS by a huge amount without bringing it back up elsewhere. They run simulations to identify and correct for those sorts of things. And if they don't catch it, I will. :)

I hope that we see them go to a dual-purpose GC model rather than a flat proc rate on CS/HotR/avoid though. The "Neglected Crusader" idea I came up with (see blog post) is a little rough around the edges, but the concept is solid.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Koatanga » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:52 am

The fundamental problem is that dodge/parry currently has no relation to our active mitigation. They are trying some proc-on-avoid things to give us some additional HP so that it's slightly more relevant to our AM, but that's extremely problematic as has already been discussed.

They could make dodge/parry increase the amount or length of our active mitigation, which would instantly vault those stats to om nom nom status because they would double-dip.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:04 am

Koatanga wrote:The fundamental problem is that dodge/parry currently has no relation to our active mitigation. They are trying some proc-on-avoid things to give us some additional HP so that it's slightly more relevant to our AM, but that's extremely problematic as has already been discussed.


Well, the only thing that *was* problematic with that model was the DPS. And even that was a minor quibble at worst.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:53 am

Looks like the background download has started.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:41 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Looks like the background download has started.


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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:59 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Looks like the background download has started.


So that means 90%+ of artwork is done, models are 95% complete, and we are 4-5 weeks out..
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:12 am

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So we get to choose which target between the trolls and the other faction we will oppose day by day.
Not bad.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:47 am

Looking at the rewards I'm not too crazy as you can only do either pve or pvp - I can't identify all the pvp rewards (which btw, also rewards less rep), is it honor, conquest and charms? if so, I would like if teh pve assignment also granted justice (especially with justice so hard to come by) - and ofcourse the pvp assignment also reward the same rep as the pve one.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:51 am

Nooska wrote:Looking at the rewards I'm not too crazy as you can only do either pve or pvp - I can't identify all the pvp rewards (which btw, also rewards less rep), is it honor, conquest and charms?

Yep.

Nooska wrote:if so, I would like if teh pve assignment also granted justice (especially with justice so hard to come by)

Agreed.

Nooska wrote:- and ofcourse the pvp assignment also reward the same rep as the pve one.

Same rep, but also same amount of lesser charms and an amount of Valor that is "equivalent" to the amount of Conquest (i.e. that you can progress at the same speed).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:00 am

Well the charms, sure, give pvp the same amount, though I don't see them actually having a real use for them (they are after all for extra chances at pve loot drops, but sure, for those (of us?) that may want to pursue both avenues).

I'm thinking the new loot chance items are going to be more expensive than 90 lesser charms per week at the amount this will reward, unless its a summary of the daily quests - meaning that there are 12 dailies of 2 charms each.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby oldboyz » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:43 am

"stuff of the day"
if only it could be again a 7/week ... which allow us to decide WHEN & how much you allow you to play (irl>wow)


dailies in daily timeframe is quite painfull in the PITA way

more than half my roster has slow much of the farming by at least 80% (in the end, no more anyone care about capping Vaillance point, me included on all my toons)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:46 am

For what it's worth, Justice is A LOT easier to come by in 5.2. First of all we get 100 JP per boss in heroic 5 mans (instead of the what, 42 currently?) and once you are valor capped, everything that would have given you VP instead gives you JP.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:05 am

FWIW though, JP are almost completely useless when the stuff you can do with them won't even get you into the first LFR tier.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:29 am

I never understood why Blizz always made it out like JP was so important especially when they're going with discounted vp prices on old gear instead of just putting them for justice (I still don't see the point of this other than throwing more road blocks in front of alts).

I don't see how adding "new" heirlooms makes JP any more valuable either. Big deal.. 5 more levels whoopie. As Fetz said you won't even be able to make it into LFR. Heroic dungeons required ilevel is pathetically low so it's not even like you have to spend the jp you got running randoms while levelling.

Guess I'll have more JP in 5.2 .... to change to more honor. Yay.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:10 am

They can't move the valor gear down to justice without undermining their decision to make people do some catching up in older content. But they won't let you keep your valor because they don't like people buying gear on patch day, so they're kinda stuck with giving us Justice.

Maybe they could let us buy Lesser Charms of Good Fortune with Justice. Not worth much, but better than nothing.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:12 am

JP are quite valuable if you still don't have a full set of heirloom gear.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:13 am

Except that this expansion has driven a lot of people away from spending time on alts.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:15 am

That doesn't make heirloom points (JP) any less valuable since they are still a pain to earn (with 5.2 there is no reason to run 5-mans for most of us apart from earning valor if we don't get enough from dailies and LFR/raiding)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:24 am

I just think its comical that seemingly the only real selling point for JP for 5.2 in basically what has equated to an arguably alt unfriendly expansion is heirlooms...to level alts faster.

I mean yeah I get it. Not everyone has been playing forever but heirlooms were introduced in Wrath and some of us have had these things forever. So to someone like me JP is next to worthless aside from converting to honor (probably a waste for some people) or those laughable pet stones (Rare upgrading stones I could see but common to uncommon? Really?)

I'm probably the minority in this but it just seems dumb to have so few choices.

And on a related note: Blizz seems to be aiming for the end of this month for release.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:26 am

Teranoid wrote:I'm probably the minority in this but it just seems dumb to have so few choices.


I'm in there with ya - I've been playing long enough to have unlocked the AT dailies and gotten all the heirlooms I care about that way, and rarely bothered buying JP trade goods. The JP I had from cata bought me a couple pieces at 90, but I simply don't care about them now.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Thels » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:30 am

Yeah, JP were useless during 5.0.

During 5.1 they actually became somewhat useful for upgrading 463 gear to 471, which helped quite a few people I know to get into HoF/ToES LFR.

In 5.2 it returns to being completely useless, and it will be a PITA for newly dinged 90s to even reach HoF/ToES LFR... I can understand why they removed the Valor upgrades, but they should've kept the JP upgrades in at least.
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