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Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:32 pm
by Klaudandus
I've always been in favor of a longer, if weaker, SotR -- the short duration of SotR was a big influence on the value of Haste in the first place.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:01 pm
by halabar
Confirmed on the PTR that even though they have loosened the tmog restrictions, items that are blocked by class restrictions may not be used. My spriest is a very sad panda since swords will not be an option... Wanted a light saber bearing spriest...

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:15 pm
by Koatanga
Sagara wrote:OTOH, anything they *add* to the spec, will have to be paid down the line.
As the saying goes, there are no free lunch tickets. They don't need to buff us right now, just find a way to make avoidance more tasty. Linking it to active mitigation gives us more control over its use.

What would HoW brings anyway? It hits hard, yes, but brings zilch to the table apart from filling up an empty GCD. And the knockdown idea is pretty lackluster as well. Only B-plan would be to link HoPo generation to the proc, but then it just becomes "GC for HoW"

No, if another option was to be considered, I found two of theck's other ideas in his blog post interesting alternatives:
Avoidance can increases ShoR's mitigation (stackable, stack limit) or duration (a bit risky)
Avoidance can reduce the next ShoR's cost by 1 HoPo (looked very interesting, creating a nice dynamic)

But even thse would imply a nerf to our current toolkit, probably to ShoR's baseline mitigation to keep things balanced.

EDIT: I'm also getting the impression that we're at times trying to fish for buffs, and that's a dangerous game to play simply because of the lost credibility these discussions would suffer. AFAIK we're in no way weak, it's just the itemization that's out of whack.


To me it seems like they got what they asked for, but don't really want it now that they have it.

They wanted an active mitigation model. They put one in place, and we embraced it. More haste = more activity = more mitigation. Active mitigation at its finest.

Now they want the passive stats Dodge and Parry to be more meaningful, so that we want to stack them instead of haste. But in order to do so, they have to attach active mitigation to passive sources. The more attractive they make Dodge and Parry, the more passive our "active mitigation" becomes.

Then there are the fundamental problems with dodge and parry:
All tanks do not dodge and parry equally. Balance issues are created.
Many boss attacks are purposefully not avoidable.
Lack of resource generation when boss is channeling or casting.
Lack of resource generation when tank swaps are required.
More mobs = more proc opportunities and potentially unbalancing

Thy don't want all tanks to be the same, but by the same token they have to be similar enough that a certain class isn't sat on some boss fights and used on others. We don't want to get back to the BC days when the pally tanked the trash but not the boss.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:15 pm
by Koatanga
Sagara wrote:OTOH, anything they *add* to the spec, will have to be paid down the line.
As the saying goes, there are no free lunch tickets. They don't need to buff us right now, just find a way to make avoidance more tasty. Linking it to active mitigation gives us more control over its use.

What would HoW brings anyway? It hits hard, yes, but brings zilch to the table apart from filling up an empty GCD. And the knockdown idea is pretty lackluster as well. Only B-plan would be to link HoPo generation to the proc, but then it just becomes "GC for HoW"

No, if another option was to be considered, I found two of theck's other ideas in his blog post interesting alternatives:
Avoidance can increases ShoR's mitigation (stackable, stack limit) or duration (a bit risky)
Avoidance can reduce the next ShoR's cost by 1 HoPo (looked very interesting, creating a nice dynamic)

But even thse would imply a nerf to our current toolkit, probably to ShoR's baseline mitigation to keep things balanced.

EDIT: I'm also getting the impression that we're at times trying to fish for buffs, and that's a dangerous game to play simply because of the lost credibility these discussions would suffer. AFAIK we're in no way weak, it's just the itemization that's out of whack.


To me it seems like they got what they asked for, but don't really want it now that they have it.

They wanted an active mitigation model. They put one in place, and we embraced it. More haste = more activity = more mitigation. Active mitigation at its finest.

Now they want the passive stats Dodge and Parry to be more meaningful, so that we want to stack them instead of haste. But in order to do so, they have to attach active mitigation to passive sources. The more attractive they make Dodge and Parry, the more passive our "active mitigation" becomes.

Then there are the fundamental problems with dodge and parry:
All tanks do not dodge and parry equally. Balance issues are created.
Many boss attacks are purposefully not avoidable.
Lack of resource generation when boss is channeling or casting.
Lack of resource generation when tank swaps are required.
More mobs = more proc opportunities and potentially unbalancing

Thy don't want all tanks to be the same, but by the same token they have to be similar enough that a certain class isn't sat on some boss fights and used on others. We don't want to get back to the BC days when the pally tanked the trash but not the boss.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:22 pm
by Flex
To me it seems like they got what they asked for, but don't really want it now that they have it.


Sounds to me like they don't want paladins to be the odd plate tank out in devaluing tanking gear not that they want to go back on active mitigation.

Thy don't want all tanks to be the same, but by the same token they have to be similar enough that a certain class isn't sat on some boss fights and used on others. We don't want to get back to the BC days when the pally tanked the trash but not the boss.


Are warriors being sat now because Revenge doesn't work when not tanking?

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:18 pm
by Koatanga
Flex wrote:Are warriors being sat now because Revenge doesn't work when not tanking?

Not sure - I don't do progression raiding with a high-end guild. You may be in more of a position to judge.

It seems logical to me that if you were in a high-end guild pushing progression and one tank did noticeably poorer damage than your other thanks when not the active tank, then you might sit him on fights that require a high raid DPS output in order to beat an enrage timer. Conversely, in situations where a tank performs noticeably better than another tank, say in AoE-intensive fights, you might select the one with higher performance.

Is that wrong?

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:10 am
by Sagara
Koatanga wrote:
Flex wrote:Are warriors being sat now because Revenge doesn't work when not tanking?

Not sure - I don't do progression raiding with a high-end guild. You may be in more of a position to judge.

It seems logical to me that if you were in a high-end guild pushing progression and one tank did noticeably poorer damage than your other thanks when not the active tank, then you might sit him on fights that require a high raid DPS output in order to beat an enrage timer. Conversely, in situations where a tank performs noticeably better than another tank, say in AoE-intensive fights, you might select the one with higher performance.

Is that wrong?


Most porbably right, but there are a couple of things to note:

a) Right now, there's no particular tendency to "shelve" one tank class. Or at least not a sweeping wave of one class in particular, which leads to
b) Player quality is currently much more important than class, especially when we have such fine control over our defenses.
c) Don't forget that the actual number pass still hasn't happened. For all we care, we could be doing 50% of the other tank's dps on the PTR, as long as numbers gets fixed by the time they hit live. Numbers are easy to fix, mechanics are not.

Honestly, if there was anything I'd complain about our DPS/threat on PTR right now, it's snap AoE. I'm not too worried about our DPS numbers, honestly.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:14 am
by honorshammer
Sagara wrote:EDIT: I'm also getting the impression that we're at times trying to fish for buffs, and that's a dangerous game to play simply because of the lost credibility these discussions would suffer. AFAIK we're in no way weak, it's just the itemization that's out of whack.


The only place I feel weak is on AoE trash pulls with our BrewMaster. It isn't a huge deal (and maybe the GC on avoidance even helps there a little).

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:00 am
by Sagara
honorshammer wrote:
Sagara wrote:EDIT: I'm also getting the impression that we're at times trying to fish for buffs, and that's a dangerous game to play simply because of the lost credibility these discussions would suffer. AFAIK we're in no way weak, it's just the itemization that's out of whack.


The only place I feel weak is on AoE trash pulls with our BrewMaster. It isn't a huge deal (and maybe the GC on avoidance even helps there a little).


Yeah, same. Thing is, once Vengeance and Cons kicks in, we're awesome. It's really the low Vengeance pulls that's annoying.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:21 pm
by boneyjellyfish
Here's an idea: successful parries increase your haste % by dodge % for x seconds. Haste rating no longer has any effect other than on white attacks except that 50% of it becomes parry rating. Numbers can obviously be tweaked.

Our haste gear retains most of its value but it gives us an incentive to stack parry and dodge. The more parry and dodge we have, the more fun our gameplay is and the better we are at tanking.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:32 pm
by KysenMurrin
We finished looking at Seal of Righteousness and Justice. Righteousness we ended up buffing by 50% so it should be a good choice against 4 targets instead of 6.

Justice is much more complicated. It was intended as a PvP seal, but the damage loss is so significant and the snare just not that valuable (which is ironic when you consider Ret's history of not being able to catch things), and Burden of Guilt is there if you really do want to snare. Furthermore, just buffing Justice's damage risks Seal twisting in PvE becoming a thing, where you stack up Censure and then swap to Justice. It could be cool if designed right, but would probably just be annoying. We just don't have much room to buff Justice, and players might still forsake it in PvP.

So, we're going to redesign it and attempt to solve another problem, which is Ret's damage outside of cooldowns (which are quite potent). Justice will now proc (and Judgment will count for the proc) a stacking debuff on the target that increases the damage of your next Templar's Verdict. With 5 stacks, this will be a big hit (but not an insta-gib) and opens up some interesting decisions about how to use Holy Power, such as Inquisition or WoG, if you're trying to hold TV. While Truth + Censure will still do more sustained damage overall, there is a chance Justice will see some situational use in PvE, and we're okay with that. Justice is a Ret-only thing, so it should be a Seal they actually use. It won't snare at all, which I expect some will call a devastating nerf, but again, there's Burden of Guilt if you really need a snare.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=28#543

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:45 pm
by Worldie
I like this:
We haven't adjusted Shadow's PvE damage yet in any case.

While not specifically saying they are going to buff us, it at least should mean they recognize damage isn't where it's supposed to be.

A bit of faith has been restored.

Well, I'm a priest, I'm supposed to have Faith I guess.

boneyjellyfish wrote:Here's an idea: successful parries increase your haste % by dodge % for x seconds. Haste rating no longer has any effect other than on white attacks except that 50% of it becomes parry rating. Numbers can obviously be tweaked.

Our haste gear retains most of its value but it gives us an incentive to stack parry and dodge. The more parry and dodge we have, the more fun our gameplay is and the better we are at tanking.

No offence but that sounds extremely complicate and unintuitive. Blizzard hates complicate things.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:28 pm
by Flex
Numbers passes are always the last thing they do after the finalize changes and rotations.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:40 pm
by Fenris
KysenMurrin wrote:
We finished looking at Seal of Righteousness and Justice. Righteousness we ended up buffing by 50% so it should be a good choice against 4 targets instead of 6.

Justice is much more complicated. It was intended as a PvP seal, but the damage loss is so significant and the snare just not that valuable (which is ironic when you consider Ret's history of not being able to catch things), and Burden of Guilt is there if you really do want to snare. Furthermore, just buffing Justice's damage risks Seal twisting in PvE becoming a thing, where you stack up Censure and then swap to Justice. It could be cool if designed right, but would probably just be annoying. We just don't have much room to buff Justice, and players might still forsake it in PvP.

So, we're going to redesign it and attempt to solve another problem, which is Ret's damage outside of cooldowns (which are quite potent). Justice will now proc (and Judgment will count for the proc) a stacking debuff on the target that increases the damage of your next Templar's Verdict. With 5 stacks, this will be a big hit (but not an insta-gib) and opens up some interesting decisions about how to use Holy Power, such as Inquisition or WoG, if you're trying to hold TV. While Truth + Censure will still do more sustained damage overall, there is a chance Justice will see some situational use in PvE, and we're okay with that. Justice is a Ret-only thing, so it should be a Seal they actually use. It won't snare at all, which I expect some will call a devastating nerf, but again, there's Burden of Guilt if you really need a snare.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=28#543

As i tried to post 4 hours ago before the forum went KABLOOOOM on me

SoR:a buff is a buff,nothing to say
SoJ:i'd facepalm hard,but i stopped caring about pvp a long,long time ago...

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:54 pm
by boneyjellyfish
Worldie wrote:
boneyjellyfish wrote:Here's an idea: successful parries increase your haste % by dodge % for x seconds. Haste rating no longer has any effect other than on white attacks except that 50% of it becomes parry rating. Numbers can obviously be tweaked.

Our haste gear retains most of its value but it gives us an incentive to stack parry and dodge. The more parry and dodge we have, the more fun our gameplay is and the better we are at tanking.

No offence but that sounds extremely complicate and unintuitive. Blizzard hates complicate things.


The seed of my idea was to turn the concept of "parry haste" into parry actually providing haste. I didn't think it was too complicated. :(

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:36 pm
by Sagara
boneyjellyfish wrote:
Worldie wrote:
boneyjellyfish wrote:Here's an idea: successful parries increase your haste % by dodge % for x seconds. Haste rating no longer has any effect other than on white attacks except that 50% of it becomes parry rating. Numbers can obviously be tweaked.

Our haste gear retains most of its value but it gives us an incentive to stack parry and dodge. The more parry and dodge we have, the more fun our gameplay is and the better we are at tanking.

No offence but that sounds extremely complicate and unintuitive. Blizzard hates complicate things.


The seed of my idea was to turn the concept of "parry haste" into parry actually providing haste. I didn't think it was too complicated. :(


Too many interacting elements that have little to no connection to other known mechanics. Compare with their new iteration of GC: they took something existing (GC) and retrofitted it to fix one of their problem. Look at theck's other proposals - most of them are very basic.

It's the old K.I.S.S. approach.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:53 am
by Nooska
Also, in discussion, lets keep in mind that nowhere has anyone stated that they want us to stack dodge and/or parry. Just that they were unhappy with how low we valued dodge/parry compared to haste. They want to bring down the relative value of haste compared to the relative value of avoidance (which they want to increase so they both move towards the middle).

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:08 am
by Winkle
Surely haste will remain the more valuable stat though since it deceases the interval between CS use and thus increases the likely hood of GC procs.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:32 pm
by Klaudandus
Paladin
Here is the current PTR Seal of Justice: Fills you with Holy Light, causing melee attacks (and Judgment) to apply Justice to your target. Justice: The attacking Paladin's next Templar's Verdict striking this target will also deal 25% weapon damage as Holy per application of Justice. Stacks up to 5 times. Lasts 15 sec. Undispellable. Using the TV consumes the stack. The Justice proc itself is not affected by mastery, nor is the mastery proc from TV counted for purposes of how hard Justice hits.

We understand the concern that this superficially looks a little like the old Taste for Blood. Taste for Blood was designed to be very random in order to limit the planning the warrior could do and limit its frequency. (It was also off the GCD, a buff rather than a debuff which made it feel even less predictable to the victim, and stackable with other big hits like Heroic Leap.) Justice is designed to be a very predictable mechanic in order to unload some decent damage even when GoaK and wings are on CD. Yes, it will be even bigger when stacked with CDs. Big hits that take a lot of planning and give their target plenty of notification and opportunities to counter are more acceptable than those that come out of the blue.

We also understand the concern that this forces paladins into taking Burden of Guilt if they want a snare. However, that is offset by the data that suggests some (but not all) paladins take Burden today (meaning the cost for taking it isn't too great), but hardly anyone uses the current Seal of Justice today; i.e. most Rets are running around with no snare at all.

On the other hand, if Ret still isn't going to use this new Justice, then there is no reason to change it, and we could just leave it as a dead spell for 5.2.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=40#799

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:53 am
by theckhd
Nooska wrote:Also, in discussion, lets keep in mind that nowhere has anyone stated that they want us to stack dodge and/or parry. Just that they were unhappy with how low we valued dodge/parry compared to haste. They want to bring down the relative value of haste compared to the relative value of avoidance (which they want to increase so they both move towards the middle).

My concern is that any attempt to do that has to make dodge/parry more attractive than haste if it has any hope of being effective. And they were pretty much there with the "proc on avoidance only" version. Sliding some of that chance back to CS/HotR will shift the balance back towards haste, and might be enough such that we'll still prefer haste. As much fun as haste-stacking is, it isn't a good situation for tank plate.

Also, for those complaining about single-target DPS nerfs: it's not really a concern at this point. Buffing or nerfing damage is easy, they have more than enough knobs to do that. They're not going to make this change and accidentally nerf our DPS by a huge amount without bringing it back up elsewhere. They run simulations to identify and correct for those sorts of things. And if they don't catch it, I will. :)

I hope that we see them go to a dual-purpose GC model rather than a flat proc rate on CS/HotR/avoid though. The "Neglected Crusader" idea I came up with (see blog post) is a little rough around the edges, but the concept is solid.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:52 am
by Koatanga
The fundamental problem is that dodge/parry currently has no relation to our active mitigation. They are trying some proc-on-avoid things to give us some additional HP so that it's slightly more relevant to our AM, but that's extremely problematic as has already been discussed.

They could make dodge/parry increase the amount or length of our active mitigation, which would instantly vault those stats to om nom nom status because they would double-dip.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:04 am
by Sagara
Koatanga wrote:The fundamental problem is that dodge/parry currently has no relation to our active mitigation. They are trying some proc-on-avoid things to give us some additional HP so that it's slightly more relevant to our AM, but that's extremely problematic as has already been discussed.


Well, the only thing that *was* problematic with that model was the DPS. And even that was a minor quibble at worst.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:53 am
by KysenMurrin
Looks like the background download has started.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:41 am
by Teranoid
KysenMurrin wrote:Looks like the background download has started.


Image

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:59 am
by halabar
KysenMurrin wrote:Looks like the background download has started.


So that means 90%+ of artwork is done, models are 95% complete, and we are 4-5 weeks out..