patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:09 am

The intended catchup mechanism (going by GCs tweets and comments on the subject) is LFR, not the low ilvl valor gear.

Its not that its not consistent with earlier times, its just doesn't make sense to have the old gear still on valor, and all the valor you earned go "poof" when the patch hits, disincentivises earning vp unless you can get a piece of gear specifically (okay 3k VP is 1410G if you are JP capped as well, but thats hardly an incentive) - nearest incentive to earn VP now is to have full JP when the patch rolls in, since JP are pretty hard to get
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:37 am

So gc is hinting at the merging of dodge and parry into a single avoidance stat
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:06 am

They also said they will try to give a two week notice so you don't get trapped with valor that gets converted.

Given the discount on the prior gear, I don't mind them doing this change, since they are also increasing drop rates, gearing alts won't be too bad. Just make sure you are not sitting on any valor on alts.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:10 am

That Bashiok post also mentioned that they will indeed be nerfing the old raids by 10%. Seems reasonable since they still want people to progress through it, and will be giving the feats of strength for those that have completed it, all thought I think it should be titles.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:11 am

Nooska wrote:The intended catchup mechanism (going by GCs tweets and comments on the subject) is LFR, not the low ilvl valor gear.


The catch up mechanism is "Everything released before 5.2."
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:17 am

Flex wrote:
Nooska wrote:The intended catchup mechanism (going by GCs tweets and comments on the subject) is LFR, not the low ilvl valor gear.


The catch up mechanism is "Everything released before 5.2."


Yep, see the post linked above.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:10 pm

- We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).
- We are going to buff Seal of Justice and Seal of Righteousness damage. Neither of these Seals is seeing enough use. Justice was always intended to be a strong PvP Seal, and it just isn't right now. We haven't solidified numbers yet - I'm just sharing our intent.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:18 pm

Is this...ACTUAL iterative design for paladins? What has Rob Pardo been slipping into GC's gin? I'm not complaining, it is just...unusual.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:52 pm

I don't know if we're doing things right, but I suggest we. don't. stop. doing it. It's like the whole castle of cards is working just right!

Constructive discussion EVERYWHERE!!!
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fenris » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:05 pm

- We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).

I actually like it this way more than on d/p only
- We are going to buff Seal of Justice and Seal of Righteousness damage. Neither of these Seals is seeing enough use. Justice was always intended to be a strong PvP Seal, and it just isn't right now.

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Nah,seriously,i'm glad they are finally looking into this
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:10 pm

Wonder what numbers they're looking at. This change'll make avoidance stats a little less valuable than they were going to be, and restore some of haste's value too.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Kihra » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:12 pm

Fenris wrote:
- We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).

I actually like it this way more than on d/p only


The problem I have with it is what problem is it really solving? I fail to see how this is going to suddenly make me want Dodge/Parry gear. I suspect it's still going to amount to a single target DPS nerf, since now you will have two overlapping events that could yield GC procs, and they're going to happen so close together that procs will end up being lost.

For example if I CS and then 0.2 seconds later I dodge, and both wanted to proc GC, that's not going to happen. Unless they set the numbers high enough to account for this overlap, it's probably just going to end up being an overall nerf.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:19 pm

They probably didn't like the amount of dps lost while not tanking/tanking but not taking melee swings due to no GC proccs.
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bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Taeron » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:49 pm

Why don't they give a proc on dodge/parry to some other skill, rather than copy GC?

Like... A successful dodge or parry gives you a 6sec buff, that activates HoW for one cast and that HoW does 100% more damage and knocks the target down for 2sec.

In any case, I hoped it would something more innovative with avoidance added value than just moving around an existing proc.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:21 pm

OTOH, anything they *add* to the spec, will have to be paid down the line.
As the saying goes, there are no free lunch tickets. They don't need to buff us right now, just find a way to make avoidance more tasty. Linking it to active mitigation gives us more control over its use.

What would HoW brings anyway? It hits hard, yes, but brings zilch to the table apart from filling up an empty GCD. And the knockdown idea is pretty lackluster as well. Only B-plan would be to link HoPo generation to the proc, but then it just becomes "GC for HoW"

No, if another option was to be considered, I found two of theck's other ideas in his blog post interesting alternatives:
Avoidance can increases ShoR's mitigation (stackable, stack limit) or duration (a bit risky)
Avoidance can reduce the next ShoR's cost by 1 HoPo (looked very interesting, creating a nice dynamic)

But even thse would imply a nerf to our current toolkit, probably to ShoR's baseline mitigation to keep things balanced.

EDIT: I'm also getting the impression that we're at times trying to fish for buffs, and that's a dangerous game to play simply because of the lost credibility these discussions would suffer. AFAIK we're in no way weak, it's just the itemization that's out of whack.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:32 pm

I've always been in favor of a longer, if weaker, SotR -- the short duration of SotR was a big influence on the value of Haste in the first place.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:01 pm

Confirmed on the PTR that even though they have loosened the tmog restrictions, items that are blocked by class restrictions may not be used. My spriest is a very sad panda since swords will not be an option... Wanted a light saber bearing spriest...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Koatanga » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:15 pm

Sagara wrote:OTOH, anything they *add* to the spec, will have to be paid down the line.
As the saying goes, there are no free lunch tickets. They don't need to buff us right now, just find a way to make avoidance more tasty. Linking it to active mitigation gives us more control over its use.

What would HoW brings anyway? It hits hard, yes, but brings zilch to the table apart from filling up an empty GCD. And the knockdown idea is pretty lackluster as well. Only B-plan would be to link HoPo generation to the proc, but then it just becomes "GC for HoW"

No, if another option was to be considered, I found two of theck's other ideas in his blog post interesting alternatives:
Avoidance can increases ShoR's mitigation (stackable, stack limit) or duration (a bit risky)
Avoidance can reduce the next ShoR's cost by 1 HoPo (looked very interesting, creating a nice dynamic)

But even thse would imply a nerf to our current toolkit, probably to ShoR's baseline mitigation to keep things balanced.

EDIT: I'm also getting the impression that we're at times trying to fish for buffs, and that's a dangerous game to play simply because of the lost credibility these discussions would suffer. AFAIK we're in no way weak, it's just the itemization that's out of whack.


To me it seems like they got what they asked for, but don't really want it now that they have it.

They wanted an active mitigation model. They put one in place, and we embraced it. More haste = more activity = more mitigation. Active mitigation at its finest.

Now they want the passive stats Dodge and Parry to be more meaningful, so that we want to stack them instead of haste. But in order to do so, they have to attach active mitigation to passive sources. The more attractive they make Dodge and Parry, the more passive our "active mitigation" becomes.

Then there are the fundamental problems with dodge and parry:
All tanks do not dodge and parry equally. Balance issues are created.
Many boss attacks are purposefully not avoidable.
Lack of resource generation when boss is channeling or casting.
Lack of resource generation when tank swaps are required.
More mobs = more proc opportunities and potentially unbalancing

Thy don't want all tanks to be the same, but by the same token they have to be similar enough that a certain class isn't sat on some boss fights and used on others. We don't want to get back to the BC days when the pally tanked the trash but not the boss.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Koatanga » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:15 pm

Sagara wrote:OTOH, anything they *add* to the spec, will have to be paid down the line.
As the saying goes, there are no free lunch tickets. They don't need to buff us right now, just find a way to make avoidance more tasty. Linking it to active mitigation gives us more control over its use.

What would HoW brings anyway? It hits hard, yes, but brings zilch to the table apart from filling up an empty GCD. And the knockdown idea is pretty lackluster as well. Only B-plan would be to link HoPo generation to the proc, but then it just becomes "GC for HoW"

No, if another option was to be considered, I found two of theck's other ideas in his blog post interesting alternatives:
Avoidance can increases ShoR's mitigation (stackable, stack limit) or duration (a bit risky)
Avoidance can reduce the next ShoR's cost by 1 HoPo (looked very interesting, creating a nice dynamic)

But even thse would imply a nerf to our current toolkit, probably to ShoR's baseline mitigation to keep things balanced.

EDIT: I'm also getting the impression that we're at times trying to fish for buffs, and that's a dangerous game to play simply because of the lost credibility these discussions would suffer. AFAIK we're in no way weak, it's just the itemization that's out of whack.


To me it seems like they got what they asked for, but don't really want it now that they have it.

They wanted an active mitigation model. They put one in place, and we embraced it. More haste = more activity = more mitigation. Active mitigation at its finest.

Now they want the passive stats Dodge and Parry to be more meaningful, so that we want to stack them instead of haste. But in order to do so, they have to attach active mitigation to passive sources. The more attractive they make Dodge and Parry, the more passive our "active mitigation" becomes.

Then there are the fundamental problems with dodge and parry:
All tanks do not dodge and parry equally. Balance issues are created.
Many boss attacks are purposefully not avoidable.
Lack of resource generation when boss is channeling or casting.
Lack of resource generation when tank swaps are required.
More mobs = more proc opportunities and potentially unbalancing

Thy don't want all tanks to be the same, but by the same token they have to be similar enough that a certain class isn't sat on some boss fights and used on others. We don't want to get back to the BC days when the pally tanked the trash but not the boss.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:22 pm

To me it seems like they got what they asked for, but don't really want it now that they have it.


Sounds to me like they don't want paladins to be the odd plate tank out in devaluing tanking gear not that they want to go back on active mitigation.

Thy don't want all tanks to be the same, but by the same token they have to be similar enough that a certain class isn't sat on some boss fights and used on others. We don't want to get back to the BC days when the pally tanked the trash but not the boss.


Are warriors being sat now because Revenge doesn't work when not tanking?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Koatanga » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:18 pm

Flex wrote:Are warriors being sat now because Revenge doesn't work when not tanking?

Not sure - I don't do progression raiding with a high-end guild. You may be in more of a position to judge.

It seems logical to me that if you were in a high-end guild pushing progression and one tank did noticeably poorer damage than your other thanks when not the active tank, then you might sit him on fights that require a high raid DPS output in order to beat an enrage timer. Conversely, in situations where a tank performs noticeably better than another tank, say in AoE-intensive fights, you might select the one with higher performance.

Is that wrong?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:10 am

Koatanga wrote:
Flex wrote:Are warriors being sat now because Revenge doesn't work when not tanking?

Not sure - I don't do progression raiding with a high-end guild. You may be in more of a position to judge.

It seems logical to me that if you were in a high-end guild pushing progression and one tank did noticeably poorer damage than your other thanks when not the active tank, then you might sit him on fights that require a high raid DPS output in order to beat an enrage timer. Conversely, in situations where a tank performs noticeably better than another tank, say in AoE-intensive fights, you might select the one with higher performance.

Is that wrong?


Most porbably right, but there are a couple of things to note:

a) Right now, there's no particular tendency to "shelve" one tank class. Or at least not a sweeping wave of one class in particular, which leads to
b) Player quality is currently much more important than class, especially when we have such fine control over our defenses.
c) Don't forget that the actual number pass still hasn't happened. For all we care, we could be doing 50% of the other tank's dps on the PTR, as long as numbers gets fixed by the time they hit live. Numbers are easy to fix, mechanics are not.

Honestly, if there was anything I'd complain about our DPS/threat on PTR right now, it's snap AoE. I'm not too worried about our DPS numbers, honestly.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby honorshammer » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:14 am

Sagara wrote:EDIT: I'm also getting the impression that we're at times trying to fish for buffs, and that's a dangerous game to play simply because of the lost credibility these discussions would suffer. AFAIK we're in no way weak, it's just the itemization that's out of whack.


The only place I feel weak is on AoE trash pulls with our BrewMaster. It isn't a huge deal (and maybe the GC on avoidance even helps there a little).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:00 am

honorshammer wrote:
Sagara wrote:EDIT: I'm also getting the impression that we're at times trying to fish for buffs, and that's a dangerous game to play simply because of the lost credibility these discussions would suffer. AFAIK we're in no way weak, it's just the itemization that's out of whack.


The only place I feel weak is on AoE trash pulls with our BrewMaster. It isn't a huge deal (and maybe the GC on avoidance even helps there a little).


Yeah, same. Thing is, once Vengeance and Cons kicks in, we're awesome. It's really the low Vengeance pulls that's annoying.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:21 pm

Here's an idea: successful parries increase your haste % by dodge % for x seconds. Haste rating no longer has any effect other than on white attacks except that 50% of it becomes parry rating. Numbers can obviously be tweaked.

Our haste gear retains most of its value but it gives us an incentive to stack parry and dodge. The more parry and dodge we have, the more fun our gameplay is and the better we are at tanking.
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