patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:17 pm

Fetzie wrote:Sha of Fear does swing 4 times instantly with Thrash every 9 seconds though, and Dread Thrash is 6 swings (heroic mode) every 36 seconds. Surely they would skew the bit where you are tanking Sha in favour of avoidance GC?


Not meaningfully. Those kinds of things are still worse than faster swings because 3/6 at once means you're getting into higher ratios of wasted procs, AND the interruptions from his specials still happen.

In fact, as Ahti(Branar) said in that thread, when you're AoE tanking, you start getting into a point where Haste becomes even more valuable because it'll also allow you to prevent procs being wasted during the gcd's by giving you a shorter gcd.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:23 pm

Darielle wrote:
Fetzie wrote:Sha of Fear does swing 4 times instantly with Thrash every 9 seconds though, and Dread Thrash is 6 swings (heroic mode) every 36 seconds. Surely they would skew the bit where you are tanking Sha in favour of avoidance GC?


In fact, as Ahti(Branar) said in that thread, when you're AoE tanking, you start getting into a point where Haste becomes even more valuable because it'll also allow you to prevent procs being wasted during the gcd's by giving you a shorter gcd.


Hadn't thought about that.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:25 pm

In other words, business as usual, only that avoidance gets a 0.2 rating on AMR instead of 0.1... Let's see what Theck's maths will bring - it's too late at night, can't wrap my brains properly around statistics right now.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:27 pm

Sagara wrote:In other words, business as usual, only that avoidance gets a 0.2 rating on AMR instead of 0.1... Let's see what Theck's maths will bring - it's too late at night, can't wrap my brains properly around statistics right now.


It should state a nerf at all levels of Haste, because as Kihra pointed out, 25% avoidance is fairly high, and is NOT something someone would have while stacking Haste in any way (the discussion in that WoW thread was about stacking avoidance vs stacking haste)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Jadhzia » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:55 pm

Another follow-up from GC:

Ghostcrawler wrote:No change to haste, dodge, parry or Sanctity of Battle. Grand Crusader changes to proc on dodge / parry to increase their value for active mitigation.

To address other concerns I've seen: yes, this is a small nerf to DPS when not the focused tank (and is similar to blocks for warriors). Yes, this improved Holy Power generation when AE tanking (but again is similar to Revenge for warriors, which hasn't been a gigantic balance problem). No, you shouldn't have to give up all your haste gear. This change should just let any dodge or parry you do accumulate be more attractive.


The comparison to warriors seems to make sense, but I don't play my warrior tank enough to be sure.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:07 am

Well, it has a non-zero effect on haste because we lose the Haste -> CS -> GC -> HoPo interaction, but it's going to be what? 10% of haste's HoPo generation? Haste still decreases CS's and J's cooldown, and on a minor note, still influences SS, SoI and Battle Healer.

Buffing Avoidance was a nice way to make it non-relevant, but it's only half of the problem, and actually the minor half. Gut feeling and rough guesstimations makes me think Haste is still strong as all hell, with no sign of letting up. I'm seriously worried that trying stuff around will only shorten the reaction time we'll have when the BIG haste nerf hits.

Let's talk hypothetics for a second - what happens when dodge/parry's value rise, everything else remaining equal? If they don't overshoot Haste, it's going to be business as usual - we'll keep working on Haste because the other alternatives are either too weak on spike management to be considered, regardless of TDR increase (Avoidance) or don't offer a strong value for the lost DPS opportunity (Mastery). But the moment Parry/Dodge overshoots Haste, then we're going to be gearing for control/avoidance, and Mastery will become the "dump stat" instead of Haste, for the same reason we don't gear for Mastery right now (i.e. not upside against the downside of lost dps)

Although, I'll admit this is hypothesis, with everything else remaining equal, which is far from a guarantee. We'd better have hard numbers before we start going on a limb.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:12 am

But the moment Parry/Dodge overshoots Haste, then we're going to be gearing for control/avoidance, and Mastery will become the "dump stat" instead of Haste, for the same reason we don't gear for Mastery right now (i.e. not upside against the downside of lost dps)


If we're at that point, we'd probably still go with Haste, because Haste would give easily more dps while still giving similar survivability (unless Dodge/Parry doesn't just overshoot it, it gets to the point where it eclipses it so hard that Haste would destroy sparkle).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:15 am

I think this change does exactly what GC vaguely indicated. It raises the relative value of avoidance / lowers the relative value of haste. Not in any paradigm changing way, whihch would also be a hard knock to all the raiders out there that gear smart.
Also "This change should just let any dodge or parry you do accumulate be more attractive." seems to sum it up.

I could think that the change to GC procs would make mastery better than haste in the calculations that Theck does for the weights though (as haste now contributes less to HoPo gains).

Oh and I'll agree with a Woot! - Its nice that a simple change suggested by the rational part of the community can be lifted more or less verbatim and used. It could be a "Okay lets do as they suggest and watch them fry in their own fat when itdoesn't work" - but thats just the tiny paranoid, conspiracy theory loving, part of the reptillian brain. In all actuality I think its because it made sense, and does what they wanted to do on the small scale.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:18 am

Wait... you mean they actually listened to the community?!??!!1?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:38 am

They do listen to players from time to time. In fact listening to players too much is what got the Warlock dev reassigned. :lol:
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:54 am

And what started the "we don't have class devs" (anymore).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:04 am

They've been saying they don't have class devs for years, and yet that happened just on the last content patch...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:23 am

Skye1013 wrote:Wait... you mean they actually listened to the community?!??!!1?

/endoftheworld


Even money says they had that same idea on their checklist, and used our own opinions to help weight in their own math.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:02 am

Skye1013 wrote:Wait... you mean they actually listened to the community?!??!!1?

/endoftheworld


Of course they do. Look at the clusterfuck called Cataclysm.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:06 am

Teranoid wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:Wait... you mean they actually listened to the community?!??!!1?

/endoftheworld


Of course they do. Look at the clusterfuck called Cataclysm.


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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:09 am

I think we are the textbook definition of Unpleasable Fanbase.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:12 am

Sagara wrote:I think we are the textbook definition of Unpleasable Fanbase.


Seriously - and I think a shining example of why 'listening to the community' isn't always a great idea: 'the community' is an uneven distribution of a variety of opinions, some valid, some ridiculous, and some variable as the weather in Chicago. And most don't really seem to have a grounding to help differentiate in their heads 'things I want' and 'things I want that would make the game better for everyone', let alone the ability to present it well.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:16 am

benebarba wrote:
Sagara wrote:I think we are the textbook definition of Unpleasable Fanbase.


Seriously - and I think a shining example of why 'listening to the community' isn't always a great idea: 'the community' is an uneven distribution of a variety of opinions, some valid, some ridiculous, and some variable as the weather in Chicago. And most don't really seem to have a grounding to help differentiate in their heads 'things I want' and 'things I want that would make the game better for everyone', let alone the ability to present it well.


The official forums should be evidence enough that listening to your playerbase is a stones throw from financial suicide.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:18 am

Teranoid wrote:
benebarba wrote:
Sagara wrote:I think we are the textbook definition of Unpleasable Fanbase.


Seriously - and I think a shining example of why 'listening to the community' isn't always a great idea: 'the community' is an uneven distribution of a variety of opinions, some valid, some ridiculous, and some variable as the weather in Chicago. And most don't really seem to have a grounding to help differentiate in their heads 'things I want' and 'things I want that would make the game better for everyone', let alone the ability to present it well.


The official forums should be evidence enough that listening to your playerbase is a stones throw from financial suicide.


And I think they know that, and it's the CM's job to 'keep up appearances', since most people really probably wouldn't like the more honest answer of: 'We've read your commentary, figured out what it was you were trying to spell, realized you have no clue what you are talking about and ignored it for the good of humanity.'
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:27 am

Sagara wrote:I think we are the textbook definition of Unpleasable Fanbase.



No, the worst case is the Petopia forums, where the fan girls go emo because their favorite beastie isn't tameable yet, or because a certain pet skin had a color change. I swear some of those people cut themselves after each ptr patch.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:29 am

benebarba wrote:'We've read your commentary, figured out what it was you were trying to spell, realized you have no clue what you are talking about and ignored it for the good of humanity.'

Like it or not... this should be 90% of the blues posts (with the 10% still being about the same number as there is now... this has the added effect of people not being able to complain about never seeing blue posts!)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:10 am

So simple solution, hire a CM whose only job it is to read posts and post this whenever the idea is.. wlel in that category.

Any volounteers? Qualifications;
Must enjoy soulcrushing.
Must be immune to fire.
Must be able to vary the rejection language.

Plusses:
Ability to snark.
Ability to use sarcasm in non-obvious ways
Ability to let people down harshly.

Applications @mikemorhaime cc @CM_Zarhym
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:14 am

Isn't Draztal the resident snarker EU side?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:16 am

Well its a job with blizzard, and acording to the daily blink Zarhym is the skull behind the company ;-)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:39 am

Nooska wrote:So simple solution, hire a CM whose only job it is to read posts and post this whenever the idea is.. wlel in that category.

Any volounteers? Qualifications;
Must enjoy soulcrushing.
Must be immune to fire.
Must be able to vary the rejection language.

Plusses:
Ability to snark.
Ability to use sarcasm in non-obvious ways
Ability to let people down harshly.

Applications @mikemorhaime cc @CM_Zarhym


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as an aside based on feedback from this cycle that a lot of PvP changed have greater influence from trusted player sources than PvE changes.
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