patch 5.2 ?

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:24 pm

i guess i am just jaded
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11226
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:37 pm

theckhd wrote:What part? Ion's a pretty smart cookie, and the logic in the ilvl choices is pretty clear.


Especially since the jist of that thread is "waaaaah.. Blizz is forcing 509 geared players to run T15 LFR for 502 gear... Waaaaah...." and "I'm too leet for big gear numbers..."
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:37 pm

I don't buy it because on live, right now, if Terror procs alongside things, I'm past the crit cap on my Bear (thanks to double crit rating).
Darielle
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:57 pm

Darielle wrote:I don't buy it because on live, right now, if Terror procs alongside things, I'm past the crit cap on my Bear (thanks to double crit rating).


There are certainly some side effects of the system, but that doesn't mean that the system should just be thrown out. Besides, the main solution put forth in that thread was to eliminate LFR gear.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:14 pm

In that thread, yes, but discussing what people complain about isn't really the point - people find a way to complain about anything (although Normal and Heroic people finding upgrades in LFR is really bad, so dismissing that complaint is a bit silly, especially when Blizzard already acknowledged it as an issue especially for Heroic people). It's what the Blizzard post is talking about with respect to "stat inflation" (or what they say when they say that they don't expect people in Heroics to be going after LFR loot, even though we know that's not true when it comes to set bonuses/trinkets combined with the fact that some Heroic loot by design is only 502 anyway - AND combined with established history from T13, even though we're not quite dealing with things on the level of OP as the 4-sets back then, the 4-sets in T15 are strong enough for many specs) that's relevant.

While they didn't necessarily have to be so conservative that Normal Thunder would drop a hypothetical 509, having Normal at 513, with Heroic at 526, would certainly have given players "room to grow". The same goes for the layering that looks to be happening with Heroic, Item Upgrade, and now Thunderforging, and it's amplifying the effects that were already predictable.
Darielle
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:13 am

Well, the fact that even some heroics raiders will desire some gear from the new LFR, either due to RNG, the RL's gf's lust for shineys, bad design on certain items and bonuses, or simply needing to catch up doesn't mean that the path they have chosen, at least for the remainder of this expac, won't work.

However, the stat inflation does need to be dealt with, and in a way that doesn't feel like an overall nerf. Cranking up diminishing returns mid-expansion probably would not go over well, unless it was part of a much larger overhaul.

Considering they are strongly hinting at removing hit and expertise, and maybe even reforging, we might see those larger changes. They would have to crank up the diminishing returns just to compensate for the additional stats on gear that formerly had hit and expertise.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:34 am

Well, the fact that even some heroics raiders will desire some gear from the new LFR, either due to RNG, the RL's gf's lust for shineys, bad design on certain items and bonuses, or simply needing to catch up doesn't mean that the path they have chosen, at least for the remainder of this expac, won't work.


And this goes beyond that. When they move with a design intent to specifically try and make it so that Heroic raiders shouldn't want to go into LFR, and Heroic raiders with Heroic items do want to go into LFR because of the item level at which LFR items are going to be allocated, it is something you have to expect people to highlight. Crying about other people crying, and trivialising their point of view is just silly.

More, the highlight on just how Normal items jump is definitely staggering. The idea that, say, 509 or 513 Normal items wouldn't have worked in the context of how much a Normal mode raider can go upwards is .... dubious at best.

Considering they are strongly hinting at removing hit and expertise, and maybe even reforging, we might see those larger changes. They would have to crank up the diminishing returns just to compensate for the additional stats on gear that formerly had hit and expertise.


All of their "indications" are that they would like to avoid these types of things in the middle of an expansion. It's going to take the game breaking to convince them to put it in.
Darielle
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:06 am

Well, as someone pointed out in that thread, they had this model at the end of Cata, so we shouldn't be too surprised.

Normal T12: 378
LFR T13: 384
Heroic T12: 391

Normal T14: 496
LFR T15: 502
Heroic T14: 509

So what should T15 LFR be, 485? :-)

If you compress the difference between the gear levels, then you make gear less attractive, and in many cases worse than the prior tier, especially when set bonuses are factored in.

They aren't going to fix the larger problems without a major overhaul, and chances are when they try, they won't get it right anyway. They already talked about this a lot prior to panda, and they backed away from those big changes.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:32 am

Well, as someone pointed out in that thread, they had this model at the end of Cata, so we shouldn't be too surprised.

Normal T12: 378
LFR T13: 384
Heroic T12: 391

Normal T14: 496
LFR T15: 502
Heroic T14: 509

So what should T15 LFR be, 485?


And for one, they said that they would like not to repeat the mistake that they acknowledged they made with T13 LFR, which involved making it attractive for Heroic T12 raiders. One of those was to ensure that end-boss stuff was not higher in LFR (the way Deathwing stuff was 390), but new bonuses and trinkets and the exact same situation (actually worse because everyone is guaranteed to only have 1 trinket be 509, since there's only one trinket in HoF/Terrace combined) and expecting that Heroic raiders won't be interested in 502 gear, given that the situation already happened? That's just a little silly, don't you think?

For the other, you cut that off exactly at the Normal mode version. While Normal T13 was set at 397 in comparison, Normal T15 is set at 522. Even if you say that most Normal raiders will have 2/2 upgraded somehow and everything in 504 (it can't be by design, because not every slot exists in HoF/Terrace, and even with capped Valor every week, that is almost definitely not happening), 504-->522 is a MUCH more massive jump than we've ever seen, AFTER accounting for the inflating that Item Upgrade throws in the wrench.
Darielle
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:00 am

The reason T13LFR was attractive to heroic T12 raider (especially tanks) was set boni primarily and trinkets - a little bit will creep in in regards to lower ilvl gear being better if better itemized than the higher ilvl gear, the 7 ilvl downgrade from T14H to T15L may come in to play, but with rng and the LFR not being able to be gamed like in T13, I don't consider this a real issue.
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1563
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:00 am

So... LFR should be "nerfed" because they design loot tables poorly? Fix the loot tables then, don't punish everyone else because the loot tables are skimpy.

However, the trinket comparison doesn't apply for all classes. For many dps classes pre-heroic, the best trinkets are still the MV trinket and the DMC. I realize it's different for tanks and healers.

It is true that the jump to 522 is large. One wonders exactly what they were expecting people to stroll in their with. I also wonder if that larger jump is due to them wanting to make the differences between levels feel larger, and/or if they are trying to make room for the upgrade system coming back and for Thunderforged.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:09 am

Nooska wrote:The reason T13LFR was attractive to heroic T12 raider (especially tanks) was set boni primarily and trinkets - a little bit will creep in in regards to lower ilvl gear being better if better itemized than the higher ilvl gear, the 7 ilvl downgrade from T14H to T15L may come in to play, but with rng and the LFR not being able to be gamed like in T13, I don't consider this a real issue.


True.

Even with coins, gear drops in Panda LFR are a lot slower overall.
LFR is going to be held back behind normal raiding, so normal and heroic raiders will see that content first.

Might a heroic raider go back to fill one RNG-cursed slot? Sure. So?...
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:02 am

So... LFR should be "nerfed" because they design loot tables poorly? Fix the loot tables then, don't punish everyone else because the loot tables are skimpy.


Unless you're somehow trying to imply that LFR "needs" to go to 502 and not 496 because people in LFR can't handle content, I don't even get where "punishment" comes in.
The idea is simply that everything should stay consistent with each other, meaning it doesn't matter where they allocate items, the next tier should take that into account. As it is right now, their power jumps certainly aren't consistent with previous tiers, even after accounting for the effect of Item Upgrade, and that's the problem.

However, the trinket comparison doesn't apply for all classes. For many dps classes pre-heroic, the best trinkets are still the MV trinket and the DMC. I realize it's different for tanks and healers.


You are aware that actually amplifies the effort of T15 trinkets being valuable, not diminishes it, right?

The reason T13LFR was attractive to heroic T12 raider (especially tanks) was set boni primarily and trinkets - a little bit will creep in in regards to lower ilvl gear being better if better itemized than the higher ilvl gear, the 7 ilvl downgrade from T14H to T15L may come in to play, but with rng and the LFR not being able to be gamed like in T13, I don't consider this a real issue.


That's not actually an argument that people won't be going in there, it's just saying they'll be going in for longer. We already know what the set bonuses are.

Might a heroic raider go back to fill one RNG-cursed slot? Sure. So?...


So....
"It's our expectation that Heroic raiders should have no interest in 5.2 Raid Finder gear. If you have item level 509+ gear from 5.0/5.1 Heroics, then the question is, why would you want item level 502 gear from the Raid Finder? Players wearing normal mode gear might find some slight upgrades in the Raid Finder in the first few weeks, but it's a safe bet that any gear that was upgraded with Valor Points will probably beat anything found in the Throne of Thunder Raid Finder."

Or do you want links to statements before this expansion that they have it as a design goal to ensure that Heroic raiders simply should not feel compelled to go into LFR because they acknowledged it was contributing to a diminished experience within the raid and frustration of bad design?

You're kind of going with this weird kick of trivialising what Blizzard has already admitted was a legitimate issue just because "TEH HARDCORES".
Darielle
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:10 am

Darielle wrote:And for one, they said that they would like not to repeat the mistake that they acknowledged they made with T13 LFR, which involved making it attractive for Heroic T12 raiders.


This is my one gripe with the system - I do wish there weren't an incentive for heroic raiders to run LFR. But that could've been fairly trivially solved by making T15 LFR 496 instead of 502.

However, even as-is, I don't think it's as big a problem as people are making it out to be. The mistake they wanted to avoid wasn't that LFR should be completely irrelevant to us, IMO. It was the encouragement of gaming the system - running 5+ all-guild LFRs to try and funnel as much gear to the right people per run as possible. That's already been eliminated with the new loot system.

A player in a heroic guild will probably only have a few "gaps" at the outset of the new tier anyway. Most of their gear will already be 502+. With 14 bosses in the tier, I expect we'll see 4 LFR segments. So if the player only has one or two slots that could benefit from an LFR item, they can just run those one or two segments and be done.

Also, keep in mind that just like reputation, it's a temporary thing. A heroic progression guild will be clearing normal the first week, and will very rapidly accumulate ilvl 522 gear. Three or four weeks in, that LFR gear will all be completely irrelevant. It's not worth griping too much over it if it's a small effect that's only relevant for a few weeks.

I think it probably would have been a little better (or at least less controversial) to just shift everything down 6 ilvls. LFR at 496, Normal at 516/517, and then so on up from there. I have a few double-upgraded items at 517 already, so that would put them on par with normal mode gear, but those items are going to be in the minority.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8003
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:11 am

Darielle wrote:
The reason T13LFR was attractive to heroic T12 raider (especially tanks) was set boni primarily and trinkets - a little bit will creep in in regards to lower ilvl gear being better if better itemized than the higher ilvl gear, the 7 ilvl downgrade from T14H to T15L may come in to play, but with rng and the LFR not being able to be gamed like in T13, I don't consider this a real issue.


That's not actually an argument that people won't be going in there, it's just saying they'll be going in for longer.


But it is when applying a bonus pater argument. The chance of actually succeeding at getting that specific loot before its irelevant for you because you have it (or better) from normal/heroic mode, or that it is actually better when coming out of LFR than what you had (which would generally not be the case for a tank or dps, as lower ilvl means less stats, leaving "gimmick" trinkets), means that heroic raiders don't have anything to do in LFR from any reasonable standpoint.
[Anecdotally I got the 2 piece set bonus for T14 from Sha before I got "it" from lfr - using coins]

Now I know (and agree) that there are any number of UN reasonable people playing wow, and that the closer you get to cutting edge the more unreasonable things raiders do - this however was not the problem in T13.
We were far from cutting edge, and still, we felt a need to go to DS LFR for gear (even those of us mostly in T12H gear) because of set boni - the reason it was reasoable was that we could run alts through with mains of the same tokens and trade them to mains, which would give us an edge (admittedly I didn't do it that much on Mooska afterI got the 2T13 bonus, because I didn't like the 4 piece bonus, mainly because I hadn't had a need to even spec into the cooldown till we hit heroic T13 (by which time I was no longer sporting any LFR gear anyway apart from souldrinker).

Self-imposed requirements are unequal to game or design imposed requirements. And a heroic mode raider of T14 should not feel any reasonable need to do LFR aprt from for fun or practise or just seeing the fights.
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1563
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 2 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest