patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:42 am

Sorry, I was thinking of what you do if you get rid of tank stat gear all around, not what you do with Paladins in current situation. Getting all mixed up between the "what should happen" and "what do we do right now" conversations.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:55 am

KysenMurrin wrote:You don't need to change the gear distribution at all. Just replace existing tank plate drops with dps plate drops. Though I guess it leaves Shields as the odd item out.


Make shields a token item. Shield token Dropped! Who gets it! Shaman? Warrior? Paladin?

It's not a great solution, but it does make it easier to handle.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:58 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Sorry, I was thinking of what you do if you get rid of tank stat gear all around, not what you do with Paladins in current situation. Getting all mixed up between the "what should happen" and "what do we do right now" conversations.


I thought about a long-term solution on the way from work. Warriors need haste scaling, and we would ALL need crit scaling. Haste wouldn't be though to get for Warrs, as they had that during beta. Crit would be a thougher cookie to crack... Unless out HoPo generators produced 2 HoPo on crits. Same for warriors wirh double rage gen. DK, I'm stumped :-(
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:09 am

Not Paladin related: Something to look for in the next expac is casters losing some (maybe a lot) of their instant cast spells - Blizzard want to get rid of blanket silence effects and make interrupting a bigger deal in PvP, but are no longer going to do it in 5.2 because to work they'd have to get rid of a lot of instants at the same time.
We think the time has come to revert some of the PvP nerfs that we made for noble reasons, but which aren't working out. Specifically, we wanted to remove blanket silences and shift the game back more towards casting and interrupts. We think the continual arms race between instant spells, silences and silence immunity isn't good for the long term health of PvP. It is a shift we still plan to make, but we don't think patch 5.2 is the right time to make it. There are a great deal of instant spells and we don't think it is fair or reasonable to remove them all and force so many players (many of whom might not even participate in PvP) to re-learn their class mid-expansion.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:30 am

Sagara wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:Sorry, I was thinking of what you do if you get rid of tank stat gear all around, not what you do with Paladins in current situation. Getting all mixed up between the "what should happen" and "what do we do right now" conversations.


I thought about a long-term solution on the way from work. Warriors need haste scaling, and we would ALL need crit scaling. Haste wouldn't be though to get for Warrs, as they had that during beta. Crit would be a thougher cookie to crack... Unless out HoPo generators produced 2 HoPo on crits. Same for warriors wirh double rage gen. DK, I'm stumped :-(


On crit increases your chance to parry or dodge the next melee atrack against you by 50% via buff 2 sec icd. If you parry or dodge the attack all cooldowns shorter than 10 seconds base are reset.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:40 am

DK tanks have short CDs? I thought everything was rune-based...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby twinkfist » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:50 am

saw some of the stats for the lionheart blade. 463 ilvl and it appears BOE...but it looks like it was datamined so that could be wrong.

that being said...not sure how i feel about the BOE part of it...i mean, i'm going to be able to make a whole lot of loot...but at the same time...i don't know. i think i'm going to work on getting my dk up with alchemy...so i can make myself some living steel.

actually, if it's boe...that doesn't really make any sense. people that buy it won't be able to upgrade it unless they make it like enchanting where you put it in the slot and then the blacksmith upgrades your weapon if he can.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:02 pm

Nooska wrote:I like Sags thought about GC unlinked from CS/HotR and linked to avoidance (and have thus tweeted that suggestion specifically to GC).


Hey now, credit where credit's due!
Sagara wrote:I like theck's idea of linking our Avoidance with GC, maybe even remove the interaction with CS/HotR. GC will remain a very random proc, but its link will "reward", or more realisticly "stop punish" Avoidance items.


/flex

Sagara wrote:Getting back to haste, the second half of the coin, I'm still of a mind of simply kicking SoB in the nuts and get back to it in 6.0 by making all tanks value crit/haste and just doing away with dodge/parry ratings.

I don't think they'll actually axe SoB. While it would certainly address the problem head-on, it would also aggravate a lot of players who've made gear decisions based on the paradigm. That doesn't mean they won't do it, but it's a much more important consideration to them than you'd think.

Regarding GC turning into an avoidance proc instead of a CS/HotR proc:
Klaudandus wrote:its effectiveness is proportional to the number of targets you're tanking and also affected by the lvl of your target, as a boss is less likely to be dodged/parried

Yes and no. A flat % chance on every avoid would work that way, but the concept of an internal cooldown isn't foreign to them either. "When you dodge or parry an attack, you have a 50% chance of (blah blah blah). Cannot occur more than once every Y seconds."

For example, set Y to ~6 seconds and AoE tanking won't be that different than single-target.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:08 pm

Problem is, I dont see how it would make Dodge/Parry better than Haste... in any case, I feel we would just switch to Accuracy/Mastery instead. Whatever bonus we get from avoidance is just icing on top, not something I see us look forward to.

Of course, I could be very wrong
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:11 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Problem is, I dont see how it would make Dodge/Parry better than Haste... in any case, I feel we would just switch to Accuracy/Mastery instead. Whatever bonus we get from avoidance is just icing on top, not something I see us look forward to.

Of course, I could be very wrong


Not That There's Anything Wrong With That. Remember, they want to change the Haste/Avoidance equilibrum. Mastery can blow it out of the water by 300% for all they care.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:12 pm

That all depends on the proc rate and ICD, I think, but in any event I don't think their goal is to suddenly make dodge/parry better than everything else either. They said they want to narrow the gap, not reverse the gearing paradigm (even if doing so would be better in the long term).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:20 pm

I still think it might better to take dodge/parry away... just like other guys here have suggested. or at least consolidate it to a single stat (avoidance), so we dont get stuck with a piece of gear that is dodge/parry
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:25 pm

Paladin -
We knew haste would be attractive to Protection when we gave them Sanctity of Battle, which
only Retribution had previously. That's why we gave them Sanctity of Battle. Even if you have a
tanking set with no haste, there are haste buffs in the game. We wanted all the tanks to benefit
somewhat from what were traditionally DPS stats, since part of the active mitigation design was to
make tanks care more about hitting things with sword (and claws). It only gets to be a problem, as I
said previously, if dodge and parry (which are going to be on some gear) are perceived as pointless. (They aren't pointless, but that's really beside the point at this stage.) We aren't going to reitemize
every plate piece in the game to remove dodge and parry. We also don't want to nerf haste for
paladins, because it is fun, and for the most part working as intended. We don't have a solution yet
that we're willing to share, but that's the intent. I state all this, because I feel like this already long
thread has become a bit too dominated by this one topic in the past few pages.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:40 pm

I don't really agree with you on dodge/parry getting removed. I think it's probably good that there are distinct "tank plate" and "DPS plate" categories. The problem is that tank plate just isn't attractive to us right now. And it's partially because, despite their opinion to the contrary, dodge and parry really are pointless right now.

(Conjecture: for dodge/parry not to be pointless, they need to have some niche which they fill. Right now that niche is TDR, and basically nothing else. If we cared about TDR, they'd have a point. Until we do, though, they're filling a niche nobody cares about. They're about as relevant to us as strength mail would be to a shaman.)

In any event, I'd much rather see them remove hit/expertise, and if they do that and remove dodge/parry then we're going to have very few choices on gear to begin with.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:45 pm

So give us some baseline hit and exp, so we dont hog all the hit/exp gear?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Malthrax » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:54 pm

theckhd wrote:In any event, I'd much rather see them remove hit/expertise, and if they do that and remove dodge/parry then we're going to have very few choices on gear to begin with.


yeah... not really looking forward to looting a shield with some stamina and "+50 PVE TANK" on it.

A game with nothing but:

+PVE HEAL, or
+PVE TANK, or
+PVE DPS

on gear would be very boring. Much like PVP is (/hyperbole)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:21 pm

Sagara wrote:DK tanks have short CDs? I thought everything was rune-based...


Well, I can't speak to what Cooldowns they have right now, but in Cata, we had:

Self Healing CD's.
Rune Tap - 1 blood rune - 30 second CD - A heal
Vampiric Blood - 60 second CD +health +Healing - no Cost (technically not a self heal, but still healing)
Lichborne + Death Coil Heals - 2min CD, No Runes. RP to fuel it
Death Pact + Raise Dead - 3 min CD - No Cost

Damage Reduction
Anti Magic Shield - no Cost - 1 min CD
Dancing Rune Weapon - 60 Runic Power, lots of parry + minimal DPS. 90sec CD.
Icebound Fortitude - 3min, standard Tank Cooldown - No Cost for Blood
Bone Shield - 20% Damage Reduction with Charges" 1 min CD. Cost 1 rune.
Army of the Dead (The Channel was used for DR as it reduced incoming damage by your avoidance) - 10min CD - No Cost

EDIT:
While I don't know if I like getting rid of Hit AND Expertise, having both seems a little redundant to me. Not a fan. For me, Dodge and Parry on gear is just not as big of a deal anymore, but mainly for what Theck said. They don't fill a purpose right now. For all the work they did to simplify tanking numbers, by getting rid of Defense as a number, they undid it all with the changes to Dodge and Parry this expac. And then to look at the values that I see people sporting, and then to look at the boss being able to ignore portions of your dodge/parry and all of your miss... It's just... What's the point? The stats don't seem to have much of a point anymore.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:39 pm

Yeah, it would be pretty different for DKs like that. Maybe something like simply doubling the healing and blood shield gained?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:46 pm

Shoju wrote:
Sagara wrote:DK tanks have short CDs? I thought everything was rune-based...


Well, I can't speak to what Cooldowns they have right now, but in Cata, we had:

Self Healing CD's.
Rune Tap - 1 blood rune - 30 second CD - A heal
Vampiric Blood - 60 second CD +health +Healing - no Cost (technically not a self heal, but still healing)
Lichborne + Death Coil Heals - 2min CD, No Runes. RP to fuel it
Death Pact + Raise Dead - 3 min CD - No Cost

Damage Reduction
Anti Magic Shield - no Cost - 1 min CD
Dancing Rune Weapon - 60 Runic Power, lots of parry + minimal DPS. 90sec CD.
Icebound Fortitude - 3min, standard Tank Cooldown - No Cost for Blood
Bone Shield - 20% Damage Reduction with Charges" 1 min CD. Cost 1 rune.
Army of the Dead (The Channel was used for DR as it reduced incoming damage by your avoidance) - 10min CD - No Cost

Just updating you as I'm leveling my 3rd DK right now (already got 2 lvl 85 ones!)
Rune tap -> 1 min cd, 1 blood rune, 10% hp heal
Vampiric Blood -> Same as before
Choice: Lichborne (same a before), Anti magic zone (very bad right now), and Purgatory, a passive simil ardent defender (prevents a death, but you need to be healed for the overkill amount within 3 sec or you die)
Choice: Death Pact (50% heal, 3 min cd, no cost, requires a pet out (no longer kills the ghoul), also ghoul cd is 2 minutes), death siphon (costs 1 death rune, heals you for an amount dependant on AP), runic siphon (heals for 3% hp per second, 10 RP per second)
Bone shield -> Same as before, but no cost
Icebound Fortitude -> Same as before
Antimagic Shell -> 75% magic absorb, glyphable to 100%, 45 sec cd, no cost
Dancing Rune Weapon -> Same as before
Army -> Same as before, plus extra coolness cause army can now be composed of random undeads
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:13 pm

In short, no very short CD. Besides, the AM model for DKs revolves around Death Strike, right?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:17 pm

Worldie wrote:
Shoju wrote:
Sagara wrote:DK tanks have short CDs? I thought everything was rune-based...


Well, I can't speak to what Cooldowns they have right now, but in Cata, we had:

Self Healing CD's.
Rune Tap - 1 blood rune - 30 second CD - A heal
Vampiric Blood - 60 second CD +health +Healing - no Cost (technically not a self heal, but still healing)
Lichborne + Death Coil Heals - 2min CD, No Runes. RP to fuel it
Death Pact + Raise Dead - 3 min CD - No Cost

Damage Reduction
Anti Magic Shield - no Cost - 1 min CD
Dancing Rune Weapon - 60 Runic Power, lots of parry + minimal DPS. 90sec CD.
Icebound Fortitude - 3min, standard Tank Cooldown - No Cost for Blood
Bone Shield - 20% Damage Reduction with Charges" 1 min CD. Cost 1 rune.
Army of the Dead (The Channel was used for DR as it reduced incoming damage by your avoidance) - 10min CD - No Cost

Just updating you as I'm leveling my 3rd DK right now (already got 2 lvl 85 ones!)
Rune tap -> 1 min cd, 1 blood rune, 10% hp heal
Vampiric Blood -> Same as before
Choice: Lichborne (same a before), Anti magic zone (very bad right now), and Purgatory, a passive simil ardent defender (prevents a death, but you need to be healed for the overkill amount within 3 sec or you die)
Choice: Death Pact (50% heal, 3 min cd, no cost, requires a pet out (no longer kills the ghoul), also ghoul cd is 2 minutes), death siphon (costs 1 death rune, heals you for an amount dependant on AP), runic siphon (heals for 3% hp per second, 10 RP per second)
Bone shield -> Same as before, but no cost
Icebound Fortitude -> Same as before
Antimagic Shell -> 75% magic absorb, glyphable to 100%, 45 sec cd, no cost
Dancing Rune Weapon -> Same as before
Army -> Same as before, plus extra coolness cause army can now be composed of random undeads


Thanks for the update. I think if I were a tank, I would probably go with a talent set up of

Roiling Blood
Purgatory
Death's Advance
Death Pact
Runic Empowerment
and Remorseless Winter

as my "default" setup, maybe switching to
Unholy Blight when there were predictable Add Phases
Lichborne when I knew that I could pool RP and there was a Occuthar's lazurs of doom attack (massive attack with little chance of death, but massive healing afterward)
Gorefiend's Grasp if I needed to swap a group of stuff to tank, or a fight where there were adds that needed rounded up, and could plan on someone to pull from.

I haven't looked deep into the talents, but there are some of those talents that just don't appeal to my play at all.
Plague Leach
AMZ (because the little I have read all agree it's awful)
Asphyxiate (that's a PvP/Soloing thing if I've ever seen one)
Conversion (seems cool, maybe it is, but it interests me the least out of the three on that level)
The New BLood Tap
Desecrated Ground. Seems more PvP to me.


And yes Sagara. AM for Dk's is Death Strike, and Blood Shield that it creates.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:19 pm

Klaudandus wrote:So give us some baseline hit and exp, so we dont hog all the hit/exp gear?

No, I mean get rid of hit/expertise entirely. For everyone. To paraphrase a really good point Hamlet made on twitter a few weeks ago: Reforging was added to help improve the hit/exp system, because otherwise loot that wasn't ideal got ignored. So you have two systems in the game (reforging and hit/exp) designed to make sure you hit the boss 100% of the time.

Is that really very interesting? Or is it just cumbersome? If everyone just loads their character up in AMR or another utility and hits an "optimize" button after every item upgrade, it's not really very interesting.

I think GC (or another blue) has hinted that they're not sure if hit/exp are still interesting stats. I wouldn't mind if they just got rid of them and adjusted rating conversions appropriately. But they'd still have to do something to make dodge/parry more attractive, in any case.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:40 pm

GC has stated that reforging and item upgrades doesn't play nicely with hard cap stats like hit and expertise with in game tools.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:06 pm

I'd be surprised if they keep hit and expertise as is for the next expansion.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:50 pm

Ok, this made me lol

Are you on some sort of cheap drug when you make choices. Tanks care about these things dodge parry block armor HP. Thats all that should matter. It has always been this way in every game ever made. It is the D & D way and the correct way. When you take this focus away you lose your ability to be a lead developer and deserve to be removed from the team.


The answer to your first question is yes. My answer to the rest is: have you seen all of the paladins begging us not to change the way haste works for them because it is both useful and fun? Are they all wrong too? Nah, never mind, don't answer that.
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