patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:30 pm

My 482 geared druid has nearly 100k armor in bear form, what's the cap? Isn't it something like 170k?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:13 pm

Something like that. With Mastery increasing armour by a %, Mastery stacking could probably easily push into the 50-60% increased armour by the time we hit T16 or are deep into T16 (by Mastery skill standards, that's between 30-36 Mastery).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:26 am

I realised a parralel between Dodge/Parry and how Grand Crusader was so 'meh' back in early Cata.
What's funny is that right now, GC, an important HoPo generating proc, is linked to CS/HotR, which are already high-priority attacks because of their HoPo generation. Sounds a bit like overkill, no?

I like theck's idea of linking our Avoidance with GC, maybe even remove the interaction with CS/HotR. GC will remain a very random proc, but its link will "reward", or more realisticly "stop punish" Avoidance items.

Getting back to haste, the second half of the coin, I'm still of a mind of simply kicking SoB in the nuts and get back to it in 6.0 by making all tanks value crit/haste and just doing away with dodge/parry ratings.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:16 am

Sorry to bring it out again, but I found it funny seeing our latest discussion on the matter

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:29 am

I'm not as concerned about gear inflation this expac around. Firstly, the extra gear levels they're throwing in are smaller jumps in between or slightly above the existing ones, not full-tier jumps like they added in ToC - the most significant thing, the addition of LFR, is something they planned from the start. Secondly, they have experience of it from WotLK, and they've said they actually test stat scaling at gear levels from the likely all the way up to the ridiculous (ilevels in the thousands just to see what happens).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:04 am

I'm not sure what I think in regards to avoidance - it was never fun - well thats not true, it was fun back in TBC when I feraltanked all the way till we got to BT (where I turned mostly feral-dps - I have a SS of me almost breaking 1k dps in TK).

I like Sags thought about GC unlinked from CS/HotR and linked to avoidance (and have thus tweeted that suggestion specifically to GC).

On bears, am I misremembering or was armorcapping actually done by bears in BC? I seem to remember something about trying to reach the armor cap when I looked at tanking gear going for Gruul - and the badge of tenacity.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:07 am

GC being linked to pure avoidance is ugh...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:10 am

New blue post:
For Protection, we do have plans to try and lower the value of haste relative to dodge and parry. We don't want to make haste terrible for paladins, but we agree that it's odd for it to be better than more traditional tank stats. It might require a nerf to Shield of the Righteous to do this, but our goal is not to nerf survivability overall. We just wanted to provide you some context if you see odd changes to tanking abilities.


Time to start collecting dodge/parry gear...
Last edited by Newsom on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:12 am

Bit late to the show Newsom :)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:19 am

I thought we were going off tweets up until now?

I guess I'm mostly annoyed with this because I have to replace all of my gear if this change goes through. And I'm not sure if that will be possible with the way loot works in 10 mans currently.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:24 am

I posted that on page 26. =P

After that, its been a couple of tweets and then talking about why its not fair for frost dks that we might want their gear...

In fact, I think it was that post that got this ball rolling.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:30 am

My bad then. Blinded by rage? :D
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:31 am

understandable, same happened to me in the politics thread
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:33 am

Klaudandus wrote:GC being linked to pure avoidance is ugh...


My curiosity is tickled - can you write a little more about that?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:54 am

its effectiveness is proportional to the number of targets you're tanking and also affected by the lvl of your target, as a boss is less likely to be dodged/parried

if no changes are done to haste and straight go with GC coming from avoidance, it will do nothing to change our love Haste...

if changes are done to haste, we will just likely switch to straight mastery... whatever gc procs we get from avoidance will be a bonus, but not something we will likely go out of our way to seek... and dodge/parry pieces would still be insta-shards

that's the way I see it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:03 am

Klaudandus wrote:its effectiveness is proportional to the number of targets you're tanking and also affected by the lvl of your target, as a boss is less likely to be dodged/parried

if no changes are done to haste and straight go with GC coming from avoidance, it will do nothing to change our love Haste...

if changes are done to haste, we will just likely switch to straight mastery... whatever gc procs we get from avoidance will be a bonus, but not something we will likely go out of our way to seek... and dodge/parry pieces would still be insta-shards

that's the way I see it.


So instead of taking hit/expertise/mastery/haste gear, and reforging the mastery into haste and accuracy, we'd be taking the same gear, but just reforging the haste into mastery and accuracy instead?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:14 am

Klaudandus wrote:its effectiveness is proportional to the number of targets you're tanking and also affected by the lvl of your target, as a boss is less likely to be dodged/parried

if no changes are done to haste and straight go with GC coming from avoidance, it will do nothing to change our love Haste...

if changes are done to haste, we will just likely switch to straight mastery... whatever gc procs we get from avoidance will be a bonus, but not something we will likely go out of our way to seek... and dodge/parry pieces would still be insta-shards

that's the way I see it.


Mostly good points! I'll keep the first for last, cause this one is a bit more complicated.

But Haste has to change. That, or we need a new paradigm where haste becomes a "tank stat". In the extreme scenario of SoB being removed, that means mastery pulls forward, behind Hit/Expertise, but still before Avoidance. If we consider GC's comments, I'm going on a limb and saying that's "enough" for him right now.

Now, if they really want us to accept avoidance (and remember, they never said they wanted avoidance to be awesome, just "lower the value of haste relative to dodge and parry"), avoidance being linked to GC (and thus HoPo generation) could "bait" us. We'd probably stack Mastery anyway, but Mastery/avoidance pieces would be more tolerable, especially at high ilvls, where capping exp/hit becomes less of a burden.

NOW, I can understand why the random aspect of avoidance-activated GC would be annoying, but it's already random to a point. In fact, such a change to avoidance would pretty much make AS a ranged Revenge.


Fetzie wrote:So instead of taking hit/expertise/mastery/haste gear, and reforging the mastery into haste and accuracy, we'd be taking the same gear, but just reforging the haste into mastery and accuracy instead?


More like, we focus on exp/hit/mastery, and when exp/hit is capped, whatever is available.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:18 am

would pretty much make AS a ranged Revenge.


A ranged Revenge that hits three targets and silences/interrupts the primary target :)

So more like "revenge, with gag order attached, with a 40 yd range that hits three targets". when AoE tanking it would be proccing all the damn time (could solve a bit of our snap aggro problem too now I think about it).
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bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:21 am

Actually, Revenge already hits three targets (if Wowhead is to be believed)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:28 am

Yeah, they baked the old Revenge glyph into the ability with MoP.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Mannstein » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:47 am

Shoju wrote:
Mannstein wrote:
Flex wrote:Who is going to stack avoidance?



Uh.... No. that's not quite how it works. It's not doubling your hit points.
1 more Mastery on a Blood Specc'd DK is more damage mitigation on a hit, guaranteed. I knew that if I increased my mastery by 1 it would increase my blood shield by a set amount, which would decrease the damage I took from a hit. Guaranteed. no guess work. That's why Armor was such a good stat when you could get pieces with bonus armor. It was always there. It always reduced the damage. It was a constant.

Avoidance is a % chance to not be hit. It could give allow you to miss that swing from the boss, or it could fail you, and you still get hit. You could also get really unlucky and have avoidance fail you, multiple times, in a row. It's unlikely, but it could happen. For me, Avoidance was a "take what you get, but don't gear for it."

It's part of what attracted me to the DK when I quit my paladin. The Dk has/d more control over their survival. i'm unsure how the current active mitigation models are working out for the other classes, so I can't speak to how well they are performing. I can just say that I felt more in control with my DK than I did my paladin.


Sorry, it seems that i didn't make myself clear. Let me try to explain my point of view:
What are the issues with a avoidance tank?
Even if a avoidance tank in practice takes less damage that a Mitigation tank... there is the issue of spike damage or "randominess" of heal that translates to "X Tank is harder to heal".
So if you try to go back to a "avoidance matters" model you still have issues where the tank can get killed thru a unluck string of hits.

What i would propose is to increase the %stamina bonus of tanks so that a tank have a bigger pool to soak unlucky hits... That way you could challenge tanks (reactive CD's could be used jsut to give the healer some breathing room) and challenge healers to be more reactive on the tank but for that you need to make healer's mana important, aka the boss must do enough DPS that a healer HPS/manapool can't handle on the long run if not managed well.

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:22 am

After seeing the data in Cata as Dk's wavered between "Avoidance Vs Mitigation" and Which one is better, I just dont see how Avoidance tanking works as a sustainable model. Even with a higher health pool, it boils down to a "chance" to not take any damage, and taking random spikes, Vs Actively Mitigating the damage that you do take.

Because if you go to the higher health pool, you get back to the problem you had before in PvP, where tanks become the unkillable machine.

Honestly, I would rather tank without avoidance, with higher armor, and mitigation mechanics as opposed to avoidance.


I was talking with a friend last night about this, and then someone on here made a comment, and I realized what I would do. The current tank gearing system just... doesn't work for me. There is no Tanking Leather, which means that two of the Tanking Classes aren't itemizing based on Tanking Stats anyway, while the other tanks are.

Someone said make Plate Parry, and Leather Dodge.

I'd probably go a little further than that. Keep the 5% dodge / Parry that people have currently. Remove Tanking Stats from the game. They've proven that they don't need it to itemize two tanks. Well, that just leaves Plate Tanks tanks.

They already cranked up the Str to Parry Conversion this tier as compensation for some other change that they made. Great. Keep that. Bears (and I'm assuming Drunks) get a fair amount of dodge from Agility. The Plate Tanks would get a fair amount of Parry from Str. They would be locked in at low Parry/Dodge rates anyway, but who cares?

Your base stats give you the avoidance. And then you can reforge to Defensive stats as needed / desired.

It eliminates loot that is designed in the game for 3 talent trees. Plate Tanking gear, and Tanking rings / necklaces and "true" tanking weapons (do they exist in Mop?). You can leave tanking trinkets as is, since they are used by all four of the tanking classes universally. that's a little better.

You can still give "tanking Tier sets" if you want, but by eliminating tank loot from vendors and drop tables, you can streamline gearing, homogenize a little, and eliminate these situations where some stat that isn't intended to be a tanking stat (Haste, or even in the way back times agility for plate) ends up being a mediocre to good tanking stat.

It gives you more room to move and play with the numbers, and come up with more active mitigation. I wont lie, Maybe I feel this way because I like the idea of active mitigation more than what we had when I started playing the game. The evolution from getting "Block Capped" in TBC, to the Active Mitigation model that I used on my Death Knight in Cata was a good process.

They've now brought active mitigation to the masses. Going one step further and removing the tank stats (From itemization only. Like I said, I think leaving them as a reforge is a good idea) that are only used by plate tanks simply streamlines the process.

People have said that Homogenization is bad, and Blizzard has countered with "some Homogenization is good". I would put this in the "Good" category.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:38 am

Great, now we just need to convince GC of the concept.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:48 am

I think he's considering the concept already - remember that blog about tank using dps stats back in Cata?
But that's a pretty tall order we're talking about here - more something for the next x-pack, like how Defense rating went belly up in the pre-Cata patch, and spellpower tank weapons died in pre-LK.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:50 am

Ghostcrawler wrote:Is there a reasoning behind this? It honestly feels like you're taking the opinions of a mysterious part of the playerbase (like the same portion who you quoted as "not liking DivPurP because it was too RNG") and changing the entire spec paradigm around it. Why push for MORE class homogenization when the game already has WAY too much?

The game just isn't currently designed to support it. It creates potential problems such as:

  • A Prot paladin competing with a Frost DK or Ret paladin over gear, meaning there isn't enough DPS plate to go around.
  • A Prot paladin considering a tier set with dodge and parry on it to be "garbage" because it doesn't stack all haste.
  • A Prot paladin looking at a Ret 2pc set bonus that she normally wouldn't touch because now the stats aren't that bad either.

In a world where tanking plate didn't exist or every loot system used the personal LFR one or 100% efficient reforging then it might work.

We understand that having a lot of haste feels fun and visceral and is more dependable than dodge and parry. We'll try to come up with a solution that keeps that in mind.
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