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Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:06 pm
by Darielle
Technically when ToC was out, Dodge/Parry was like woohoo because we were at Parry Capping Expertise without trying for it.

I like Haste, not so much Crit, on tanking gear. I think the optimal solution is probably just to get rid of dodge/parry as things and homogenize a bit more, oddly. Maybe a new stat that combines them in a more interesting way.


I think consolidating them into one stat is good (say Leather gets Dodge and Plate gets Parry - the actual stat being whatever, they could even make it "Defense"). I think the MAIN thing is that it needs to be in some way part of what we do.

Dodging as a Bear feels good. Because you're pushing buttons to Dodge, so getting a payoff is nice. Popping Berserk or Incarnation and just dodging all the things, awesome. It's semi-OK for a Warrior*, although it really isn't all that exciting on single target, and frankly a little dumb on true aoe with just how MUCH Revenge happens. Those kinds of interactions are good, and those are what they should be trying for.

*I'd actually speculate that it's because of the way Revenge works that they've felt OK with Warriors not scaling with Haste.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:08 pm
by Fetzie
Darielle wrote:Technically when ToC was out, Dodge/Parry was like woohoo because we were at Parry Capping Expertise without trying for it.

And the tier before we were spell-capping hit without trying for it :)

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:09 pm
by Klaudandus
And then we got hit by Icecrown Radiance just like Theck predicted, when they had said Sunwell Radiance was not gonna happen again according to their calculations...

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:15 pm
by Fetzie
Klaudandus wrote:And then we got hit by Icecrown Radiance just like Theck predicted, when they had said Sunwell Radiance was not gonna happen again according to their calculations...

...Which they made before thinking about a permanent "heroic mode" tier of gear for ToC and ICC :/

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:16 pm
by Darielle
I highly doubt they were "planning" on Item Upgrades and Thunderforging causing them to shove Normal Mode next tier all the way up to 522 and crossing the 540 mark already either. Inflation is going to be way harder than it was even in ToC.

Actually, one thing I totally missed out when I was thinking about 100% crit Fury Warriors was something closer to Home. It's entirely plausible that Bears could be Armor Capped without trying (and definitely with trying) at some point in this expansion (most likely T16, almost definitely T17 if we end up having one).

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:30 pm
by Fetzie
My 482 geared druid has nearly 100k armor in bear form, what's the cap? Isn't it something like 170k?

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:13 pm
by Darielle
Something like that. With Mastery increasing armour by a %, Mastery stacking could probably easily push into the 50-60% increased armour by the time we hit T16 or are deep into T16 (by Mastery skill standards, that's between 30-36 Mastery).

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:26 am
by Sagara
I realised a parralel between Dodge/Parry and how Grand Crusader was so 'meh' back in early Cata.
What's funny is that right now, GC, an important HoPo generating proc, is linked to CS/HotR, which are already high-priority attacks because of their HoPo generation. Sounds a bit like overkill, no?

I like theck's idea of linking our Avoidance with GC, maybe even remove the interaction with CS/HotR. GC will remain a very random proc, but its link will "reward", or more realisticly "stop punish" Avoidance items.

Getting back to haste, the second half of the coin, I'm still of a mind of simply kicking SoB in the nuts and get back to it in 6.0 by making all tanks value crit/haste and just doing away with dodge/parry ratings.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:16 am
by Worldie
Sorry to bring it out again, but I found it funny seeing our latest discussion on the matter

Image

edit: fixed link

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:29 am
by KysenMurrin
I'm not as concerned about gear inflation this expac around. Firstly, the extra gear levels they're throwing in are smaller jumps in between or slightly above the existing ones, not full-tier jumps like they added in ToC - the most significant thing, the addition of LFR, is something they planned from the start. Secondly, they have experience of it from WotLK, and they've said they actually test stat scaling at gear levels from the likely all the way up to the ridiculous (ilevels in the thousands just to see what happens).

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:04 am
by Nooska
I'm not sure what I think in regards to avoidance - it was never fun - well thats not true, it was fun back in TBC when I feraltanked all the way till we got to BT (where I turned mostly feral-dps - I have a SS of me almost breaking 1k dps in TK).

I like Sags thought about GC unlinked from CS/HotR and linked to avoidance (and have thus tweeted that suggestion specifically to GC).

On bears, am I misremembering or was armorcapping actually done by bears in BC? I seem to remember something about trying to reach the armor cap when I looked at tanking gear going for Gruul - and the badge of tenacity.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:07 am
by Klaudandus
GC being linked to pure avoidance is ugh...

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:10 am
by Newsom
New blue post:
For Protection, we do have plans to try and lower the value of haste relative to dodge and parry. We don't want to make haste terrible for paladins, but we agree that it's odd for it to be better than more traditional tank stats. It might require a nerf to Shield of the Righteous to do this, but our goal is not to nerf survivability overall. We just wanted to provide you some context if you see odd changes to tanking abilities.


Time to start collecting dodge/parry gear...

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:12 am
by Fetzie
Bit late to the show Newsom :)

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:19 am
by Newsom
I thought we were going off tweets up until now?

I guess I'm mostly annoyed with this because I have to replace all of my gear if this change goes through. And I'm not sure if that will be possible with the way loot works in 10 mans currently.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:24 am
by Klaudandus
I posted that on page 26. =P

After that, its been a couple of tweets and then talking about why its not fair for frost dks that we might want their gear...

In fact, I think it was that post that got this ball rolling.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:30 am
by Newsom
My bad then. Blinded by rage? :D

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:31 am
by Klaudandus
understandable, same happened to me in the politics thread

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:33 am
by Sagara
Klaudandus wrote:GC being linked to pure avoidance is ugh...


My curiosity is tickled - can you write a little more about that?

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:54 am
by Klaudandus
its effectiveness is proportional to the number of targets you're tanking and also affected by the lvl of your target, as a boss is less likely to be dodged/parried

if no changes are done to haste and straight go with GC coming from avoidance, it will do nothing to change our love Haste...

if changes are done to haste, we will just likely switch to straight mastery... whatever gc procs we get from avoidance will be a bonus, but not something we will likely go out of our way to seek... and dodge/parry pieces would still be insta-shards

that's the way I see it.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:03 am
by Fetzie
Klaudandus wrote:its effectiveness is proportional to the number of targets you're tanking and also affected by the lvl of your target, as a boss is less likely to be dodged/parried

if no changes are done to haste and straight go with GC coming from avoidance, it will do nothing to change our love Haste...

if changes are done to haste, we will just likely switch to straight mastery... whatever gc procs we get from avoidance will be a bonus, but not something we will likely go out of our way to seek... and dodge/parry pieces would still be insta-shards

that's the way I see it.


So instead of taking hit/expertise/mastery/haste gear, and reforging the mastery into haste and accuracy, we'd be taking the same gear, but just reforging the haste into mastery and accuracy instead?

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:14 am
by Sagara
Klaudandus wrote:its effectiveness is proportional to the number of targets you're tanking and also affected by the lvl of your target, as a boss is less likely to be dodged/parried

if no changes are done to haste and straight go with GC coming from avoidance, it will do nothing to change our love Haste...

if changes are done to haste, we will just likely switch to straight mastery... whatever gc procs we get from avoidance will be a bonus, but not something we will likely go out of our way to seek... and dodge/parry pieces would still be insta-shards

that's the way I see it.


Mostly good points! I'll keep the first for last, cause this one is a bit more complicated.

But Haste has to change. That, or we need a new paradigm where haste becomes a "tank stat". In the extreme scenario of SoB being removed, that means mastery pulls forward, behind Hit/Expertise, but still before Avoidance. If we consider GC's comments, I'm going on a limb and saying that's "enough" for him right now.

Now, if they really want us to accept avoidance (and remember, they never said they wanted avoidance to be awesome, just "lower the value of haste relative to dodge and parry"), avoidance being linked to GC (and thus HoPo generation) could "bait" us. We'd probably stack Mastery anyway, but Mastery/avoidance pieces would be more tolerable, especially at high ilvls, where capping exp/hit becomes less of a burden.

NOW, I can understand why the random aspect of avoidance-activated GC would be annoying, but it's already random to a point. In fact, such a change to avoidance would pretty much make AS a ranged Revenge.


Fetzie wrote:So instead of taking hit/expertise/mastery/haste gear, and reforging the mastery into haste and accuracy, we'd be taking the same gear, but just reforging the haste into mastery and accuracy instead?


More like, we focus on exp/hit/mastery, and when exp/hit is capped, whatever is available.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:18 am
by Fetzie
would pretty much make AS a ranged Revenge.


A ranged Revenge that hits three targets and silences/interrupts the primary target :)

So more like "revenge, with gag order attached, with a 40 yd range that hits three targets". when AoE tanking it would be proccing all the damn time (could solve a bit of our snap aggro problem too now I think about it).

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:21 am
by Sagara
Actually, Revenge already hits three targets (if Wowhead is to be believed)

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:28 am
by Newsom
Yeah, they baked the old Revenge glyph into the ability with MoP.