patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:41 pm

-You succeeded at Active mitigation - avoidance is by definition passive mitigation - regretting the change?
-Re:Nope. We think active mitigation is more fun. Just need to decide what to do about dodge and parry long term.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:51 pm

If they just make haste worthless again I'm rerolling warrior. Can't stand the 1.5 sec snoozefest any more after having had this much fun with haste.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:52 pm

Klaudandus wrote:-You succeeded at Active mitigation - avoidance is by definition passive mitigation - regretting the change?
-Re:Nope. We think active mitigation is more fun. Just need to decide what to do about dodge and parry long term.

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:58 pm

Not going to try and quote-reply to everyone, but here are some choice comments on the last few pages:

It's sort of silly that we value haste so much and avoidance so little. That's not ideal from a design perspective for a number of reasons (loot competition, tier sets, etc.). As I said on twitter last night, I miss looking forward to seeing dodge/parry gear drop.

That said, I also think people are overvaluing haste, and losing sight of the overall picture. If you look back at the simulations, it wasn't haste that stood out, it was hit/exp. Getting to hit/exp cap was the #1 best thing you can do for smoothing damage. After that, haste and mastery were more or less tied, with avoidance trailing only slightly. Haste isn't a ZOMGAMAZING survivability stat, it's just better than the alternatives once you're at hit/exp caps.

The other thing that's important to note is haste's DPS contribution. Now that we do respectable DPS with Vengeance, tank DPS is a big deal. If you're given the choice between two secondary stats that give you similar survivability (haste and mastery), but one of those stats gives a significant DPS increase and the other one doesn't, which one is the logical choice?

In short, if haste is going to be such a good DPS stat, it can't also be a competitive survivability stat. Otherwise it just makes everything else irrelevant. You could actually make the same arguments for hit/exp, but I think we're in an era where those are considered "acceptable" tanking stats, so they must not consider it as big a problem.

I agree with some of the comments that suggest they put too much stock in TDR. They've been doing that for years, in my opinion. And from that perspective, haste is fine, because it's terrible for TDR. So are hit and expertise. I think that's probably how we got into this situation in the first place. Sooner or later they're going to have to shift their design focus around how stats perform in spike metrics rather than TDR. Hopefully this situation encourages them to do that.

We've been gearing to survive burst rather than TDR for the last 3 expansions now, and dodge/parry have been more or less "garbage" the entire time. The problem we're seeing here isn't solely a problem with hit, expertise, or haste. It's a problem with avoidance. Avoidance is reminiscent of an era where the majority of a tank's survivability happened outside of a raid, while they were selecting and optimizing their gear. Then they showed up to raid and stood there, taking attacks to the face. That era is long gone, especially with active mitigation.

What we really need is some mechanic that makes avoidance interesting again. Something that ties avoidance into our active mitigation, so that we're excited when we see an avoided attack because it lets us do something. Think Revenge for warriors. Maybe avoids could be added to Grand Crusader, or we'd get a buff that increases the duration or effectiveness of our next SotR when we avoid (with some % chance), or whatever.

Regarding nerfing SotR, the effect depends on how they do it. There are definitely ways to nerf SotR that will reduce the value of hit/exp/haste without affecting mastery or avoidance much. And of course, they could just nerf or remove Sanctity of Battle to target haste specifically. I don't think they will, because it was given to us precisely so that we would get a defensive benefit from haste. I just don't think they realized how competitive it would be with traditional tanking stats.

Which is ironic, in a way. We begged for SoB because we were the only tank that didn't get a survivability benefit from haste effects (DKs got runes, Warriors/Bears got rage), and that was a problem. So they gave us SoB and then took away the haste scaling for prot warriors. Oops? Maybe we're better-off without SoB now, to put us on an even footing with Warriors (we'd still have SS/EF/SoI scaling, at least).

While someone in the thread tossed aside concerns about re-gearing, it's something they definitely worry about. They've publicly stated in the past that they hesitated on changes (block cap, for example) because they didn't want the playerbase to feel like they had to reforge and regem all of the sudden. That's even more problematic in this situation, because it's not just a simple reforge/regem problem. It's a complete replacement of many pieces of gear, some of which have probably been upgraded with valor points. That makes the stakes a lot higher, and they know it.

In any event, we'll have to see what they do to SotR. I'm not sure a small nerf would actually change our gearing preferences though. It certainly won't be enough to encourage us to stack avoidance, but I also think that they're going to be delicate here because of gearing concerns. It would be very difficult to nerf SotR enough to make hit/exp less appealing than avoidance without making SotR irrelevant. They might manage to push haste slightly behind mastery and avoidance in terms of survivability, but again, it would be hard to put it too far behind through SotR nerfs alone. And even then, there's the DPS angle to consider.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:01 pm

Newsom wrote:If they just make haste worthless again I'm rerolling warrior. Can't stand the 1.5 sec snoozefest any more after having had this much fun with haste.

I'm not sure that makes much sense.

First of all, even in full heroic gear, you're not likely to have much more than 10% melee haste. So your GCDs are now... 1.36 seconds? Certainly an improvement, but not a huge difference. Hardly enough to qualify 1.5 seconds as a snoozefest.

Second of all... you'd be rerolling to a character that also has no haste scaling. So you'd be going from one 1.5-sec snoozefest to another?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:11 pm

theckhd wrote:Not going to try and quote-reply to everyone, but here are some choice comments on the last few pages:

It's sort of silly that we value haste so much and avoidance so little. That's not ideal from a design perspective for a number of reasons (loot competition, tier sets, etc.). As I said on twitter last night, I miss looking forward to seeing dodge/parry gear drop.

That said, I also think people are overvaluing haste, and losing sight of the overall picture. If you look back at the simulations, it wasn't haste that stood out, it was hit/exp. Getting to hit/exp cap was the #1 best thing you can do for smoothing damage. After that, haste and mastery were more or less tied, with avoidance trailing only slightly. Haste isn't a ZOMGAMAZING survivability stat, it's just better than the alternatives once you're at hit/exp caps.

The other thing that's important to note is haste's DPS contribution. Now that we do respectable DPS with Vengeance, tank DPS is a big deal. If you're given the choice between two secondary stats that give you similar survivability (haste and mastery), but one of those stats gives a significant DPS increase and the other one doesn't, which one is the logical choice?

In short, if haste is going to be such a good DPS stat, it can't also be a competitive survivability stat. Otherwise it just makes everything else irrelevant. You could actually make the same arguments for hit/exp, but I think we're in an era where those are considered "acceptable" tanking stats, so they must not consider it as big a problem.

I agree with some of the comments that suggest they put too much stock in TDR. They've been doing that for years, in my opinion. And from that perspective, haste is fine, because it's terrible for TDR. So are hit and expertise. I think that's probably how we got into this situation in the first place. Sooner or later they're going to have to shift their design focus around how stats perform in spike metrics rather than TDR. Hopefully this situation encourages them to do that.

We've been gearing to survive burst rather than TDR for the last 3 expansions now, and dodge/parry have been more or less "garbage" the entire time. The problem we're seeing here isn't solely a problem with hit, expertise, or haste. It's a problem with avoidance. Avoidance is reminiscent of an era where the majority of a tank's survivability happened outside of a raid, while they were selecting and optimizing their gear. Then they showed up to raid and stood there, taking attacks to the face. That era is long gone, especially with active mitigation.

What we really need is some mechanic that makes avoidance interesting again. Something that ties avoidance into our active mitigation, so that we're excited when we see an avoided attack because it lets us do something. Think Revenge for warriors. Maybe avoids could be added to Grand Crusader, or we'd get a buff that increases the duration or effectiveness of our next SotR when we avoid (with some % chance), or whatever.

Regarding nerfing SotR, the effect depends on how they do it. There are definitely ways to nerf SotR that will reduce the value of hit/exp/haste without affecting mastery or avoidance much. And of course, they could just nerf or remove Sanctity of Battle to target haste specifically. I don't think they will, because it was given to us precisely so that we would get a defensive benefit from haste. I just don't think they realized how competitive it would be with traditional tanking stats.

Which is ironic, in a way. We begged for SoB because we were the only tank that didn't get a survivability benefit from haste effects (DKs got runes, Warriors/Bears got rage), and that was a problem. So they gave us SoB and then took away the haste scaling for prot warriors. Oops? Maybe we're better-off without SoB now, to put us on an even footing with Warriors (we'd still have SS/EF/SoI scaling, at least).

While someone in the thread tossed aside concerns about re-gearing, it's something they definitely worry about. They've publicly stated in the past that they hesitated on changes (block cap, for example) because they didn't want the playerbase to feel like they had to reforge and regem all of the sudden. That's even more problematic in this situation, because it's not just a simple reforge/regem problem. It's a complete replacement of many pieces of gear, some of which have probably been upgraded with valor points. That makes the stakes a lot higher, and they know it.

In any event, we'll have to see what they do to SotR. I'm not sure a small nerf would actually change our gearing preferences though. It certainly won't be enough to encourage us to stack avoidance, but I also think that they're going to be delicate here because of gearing concerns. It would be very difficult to nerf SotR enough to make hit/exp less appealing than avoidance without making SotR irrelevant. They might manage to push haste slightly behind mastery and avoidance in terms of survivability, but again, it would be hard to put it too far behind through SotR nerfs alone. And even then, there's the DPS angle to consider.


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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:26 pm

theckhd wrote:
Newsom wrote:If they just make haste worthless again I'm rerolling warrior. Can't stand the 1.5 sec snoozefest any more after having had this much fun with haste.

I'm not sure that makes much sense.

First of all, even in full heroic gear, you're not likely to have much more than 10% melee haste. So your GCDs are now... 1.36 seconds? Certainly an improvement, but not a huge difference. Hardly enough to qualify 1.5 seconds as a snoozefest.

Second of all... you'd be rerolling to a character that also has no haste scaling. So you'd be going from one 1.5-sec snoozefest to another?


Ehm... I'm currently at 25% melee haste unbuffed and still quite a few pieces off my personal best in slot gear.

Warriors feel way more active - more stuff off the global cooldown and parry feels like a fun stat. Also banners are awesome. I'm probably overreacting but protection paladin feels sooo good currently.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:45 pm

Newsom wrote:I'm probably overreacting but protection paladin feels sooo good currently.


There's never been overreaction on this forum!
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:47 pm

Flex wrote:
Newsom wrote:I'm probably overreacting but protection paladin feels sooo good currently.


There's never been overreaction on this forum!


NEEEEEVEEER!

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby PsiVen » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:48 pm

As I said on twitter last night, I miss looking forward to seeing dodge/parry gear drop.


I don't miss this that much because it pretty much never happened for me. Dodge/parry has always been the mediocre stat that happens to show up on our tanking gear. For a time in Sunwell I was really excited about stacking ridiculous amounts of Defense, I guess.

I like Haste, not so much Crit, on tanking gear. I think the optimal solution is probably just to get rid of dodge/parry as things and homogenize a bit more, oddly. Maybe a new stat that combines them in a more interesting way.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:06 pm

Technically when ToC was out, Dodge/Parry was like woohoo because we were at Parry Capping Expertise without trying for it.

I like Haste, not so much Crit, on tanking gear. I think the optimal solution is probably just to get rid of dodge/parry as things and homogenize a bit more, oddly. Maybe a new stat that combines them in a more interesting way.


I think consolidating them into one stat is good (say Leather gets Dodge and Plate gets Parry - the actual stat being whatever, they could even make it "Defense"). I think the MAIN thing is that it needs to be in some way part of what we do.

Dodging as a Bear feels good. Because you're pushing buttons to Dodge, so getting a payoff is nice. Popping Berserk or Incarnation and just dodging all the things, awesome. It's semi-OK for a Warrior*, although it really isn't all that exciting on single target, and frankly a little dumb on true aoe with just how MUCH Revenge happens. Those kinds of interactions are good, and those are what they should be trying for.

*I'd actually speculate that it's because of the way Revenge works that they've felt OK with Warriors not scaling with Haste.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:08 pm

Darielle wrote:Technically when ToC was out, Dodge/Parry was like woohoo because we were at Parry Capping Expertise without trying for it.

And the tier before we were spell-capping hit without trying for it :)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:09 pm

And then we got hit by Icecrown Radiance just like Theck predicted, when they had said Sunwell Radiance was not gonna happen again according to their calculations...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:15 pm

Klaudandus wrote:And then we got hit by Icecrown Radiance just like Theck predicted, when they had said Sunwell Radiance was not gonna happen again according to their calculations...

...Which they made before thinking about a permanent "heroic mode" tier of gear for ToC and ICC :/
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:16 pm

I highly doubt they were "planning" on Item Upgrades and Thunderforging causing them to shove Normal Mode next tier all the way up to 522 and crossing the 540 mark already either. Inflation is going to be way harder than it was even in ToC.

Actually, one thing I totally missed out when I was thinking about 100% crit Fury Warriors was something closer to Home. It's entirely plausible that Bears could be Armor Capped without trying (and definitely with trying) at some point in this expansion (most likely T16, almost definitely T17 if we end up having one).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:30 pm

My 482 geared druid has nearly 100k armor in bear form, what's the cap? Isn't it something like 170k?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:13 pm

Something like that. With Mastery increasing armour by a %, Mastery stacking could probably easily push into the 50-60% increased armour by the time we hit T16 or are deep into T16 (by Mastery skill standards, that's between 30-36 Mastery).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:26 am

I realised a parralel between Dodge/Parry and how Grand Crusader was so 'meh' back in early Cata.
What's funny is that right now, GC, an important HoPo generating proc, is linked to CS/HotR, which are already high-priority attacks because of their HoPo generation. Sounds a bit like overkill, no?

I like theck's idea of linking our Avoidance with GC, maybe even remove the interaction with CS/HotR. GC will remain a very random proc, but its link will "reward", or more realisticly "stop punish" Avoidance items.

Getting back to haste, the second half of the coin, I'm still of a mind of simply kicking SoB in the nuts and get back to it in 6.0 by making all tanks value crit/haste and just doing away with dodge/parry ratings.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:16 am

Sorry to bring it out again, but I found it funny seeing our latest discussion on the matter

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:29 am

I'm not as concerned about gear inflation this expac around. Firstly, the extra gear levels they're throwing in are smaller jumps in between or slightly above the existing ones, not full-tier jumps like they added in ToC - the most significant thing, the addition of LFR, is something they planned from the start. Secondly, they have experience of it from WotLK, and they've said they actually test stat scaling at gear levels from the likely all the way up to the ridiculous (ilevels in the thousands just to see what happens).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:04 am

I'm not sure what I think in regards to avoidance - it was never fun - well thats not true, it was fun back in TBC when I feraltanked all the way till we got to BT (where I turned mostly feral-dps - I have a SS of me almost breaking 1k dps in TK).

I like Sags thought about GC unlinked from CS/HotR and linked to avoidance (and have thus tweeted that suggestion specifically to GC).

On bears, am I misremembering or was armorcapping actually done by bears in BC? I seem to remember something about trying to reach the armor cap when I looked at tanking gear going for Gruul - and the badge of tenacity.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:07 am

GC being linked to pure avoidance is ugh...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:10 am

New blue post:
For Protection, we do have plans to try and lower the value of haste relative to dodge and parry. We don't want to make haste terrible for paladins, but we agree that it's odd for it to be better than more traditional tank stats. It might require a nerf to Shield of the Righteous to do this, but our goal is not to nerf survivability overall. We just wanted to provide you some context if you see odd changes to tanking abilities.


Time to start collecting dodge/parry gear...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:12 am

Bit late to the show Newsom :)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:19 am

I thought we were going off tweets up until now?

I guess I'm mostly annoyed with this because I have to replace all of my gear if this change goes through. And I'm not sure if that will be possible with the way loot works in 10 mans currently.
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