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Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:21 am
by bldavis
yes afaik haste still affects rune speed, which helps cause haste is god for frost and i have to use alot of the same gear for both frost and blood

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:03 am
by Klaudandus
Is there a reasoning behind this? It honestly feels like you're taking the opinions of a mysterious part of the playerbase (like the same portion who you quoted as "not liking DivPurP because it was too RNG") and changing the entire spec paradigm around it. Why push for MORE class homogenization when the game already has WAY too much?



The game just isn't currently designed to support it. It creates potential problems such as:

- A Prot paladin competing with a Frost DK or Ret paladin over gear, meaning there isn't enough DPS plate to go around.
- A Prot paladin considering a tier set with dodge and parry on it to be "garbage" because it doesn't stack all haste.
- A Prot paladin looking at a Ret 2pc set bonus that she normally wouldn't touch because now the stats aren't that bad either.

In a world where tanking plate didn't exist or every loot system used the personal LFR one or 100% efficient reforging then it might work.

We understand that having a lot of haste feels fun and visceral and is more dependable than dodge and parry. We'll try to come up with a solution that keeps that in mind.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=48#949

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:15 am
by Flex
Whenever you dodge, parry or block the remaining cooldown of your CS and HotR is reduced by 0.1 seconds.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:24 am
by Klaudandus
Notsureifserious

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:26 am
by Sagara
Honestly, i'd rather bite the bullet, lose SoB and get done with it than suffer more rollercoaster, and get back to haste (and crit?) stacking in 6.0 where all tank stats DIE !!

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:27 am
by Flex
Klaudandus wrote:Notsureifserious


That'd be my solution *shrug*

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:35 am
by Klaudandus
Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Notsureifserious


That'd be my solution *shrug*

It would need to reduce the gcd as well by the same amount to begin with, id say.

Otherwise, the ability might be ready but we cant use it, making the proc go to waste.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:44 am
by Jadhzia
Klaudandus wrote:
Is there a reasoning behind this? It honestly feels like you're taking the opinions of a mysterious part of the playerbase (like the same portion who you quoted as "not liking DivPurP because it was too RNG") and changing the entire spec paradigm around it. Why push for MORE class homogenization when the game already has WAY too much?



The game just isn't currently designed to support it. It creates potential problems such as:

- A Prot paladin competing with a Frost DK or Ret paladin over gear, meaning there isn't enough DPS plate to go around.
- A Prot paladin considering a tier set with dodge and parry on it to be "garbage" because it doesn't stack all haste.
- A Prot paladin looking at a Ret 2pc set bonus that she normally wouldn't touch because now the stats aren't that bad either.

In a world where tanking plate didn't exist or every loot system used the personal LFR one or 100% efficient reforging then it might work.

We understand that having a lot of haste feels fun and visceral and is more dependable than dodge and parry. We'll try to come up with a solution that keeps that in mind.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=48#949


This isn't good, and I find it sad. The current system is well-thought, fun and efficient. So of course it has to go, instead of building further improvements from it... What can be salvaged from active mitigation if we are forced to stack avoidance? Even druid tanks don't stack those.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:47 am
by Flex
Who is going to stack avoidance?

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:58 am
by Mannstein
Flex wrote:Who is going to stack avoidance?

Blood Spec/Prot/bear/Drunken monk stance gets twice the hit point... aka 1.4Milion on a Heroic equiped tank. Boss hits for 300k...
You don't have avoidance? Prepare to dry the mana from your healers...
You have avoidance? You healers will be able to save mana.

Why increase on the HP? So if a healer can reactively heal if you have bad luck, and to prevent the hard decisions that a Holy pala had in Ulduar:
A) Is the tank at less then 100% life? CAST HOLY LIGHT!
B) Is the tank at "more" then 100% life? CAST HOLY LIGHT!
C) Is the tank not taking any damage? CAST HOLY LIGHT!

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:14 pm
by Klaudandus
Sagara wrote:Honestly, i'd rather bite the bullet, lose SoB and get done with it than suffer more rollercoaster, and get back to haste (and crit?) stacking in 6.0 where all tank stats DIE !!


Not entirely sure I like how GC replied to you, specially because its not our fault the stat weights have that bias towards Haste

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:20 pm
by Sagara
I blame the medium, and really took no offense. His answer made sense and I read it as "because we didn't want you to consider Haste the go-to stat and now you're in weird corner where you look outside "your" loot."

Which lead to my next question, which is the most important to me now.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:26 pm
by Shoju
Mannstein wrote:
Flex wrote:Who is going to stack avoidance?

Blood Spec/Prot/bear/Drunken monk stance gets twice the hit point... aka 1.4Milion on a Heroic equiped tank. Boss hits for 300k...
You don't have avoidance? Prepare to dry the mana from your healers...
You have avoidance? You healers will be able to save mana.

Why increase on the HP? So if a healer can reactively heal if you have bad luck, and to prevent the hard decisions that a Holy pala had in Ulduar:
A) Is the tank at less then 100% life? CAST HOLY LIGHT!
B) Is the tank at "more" then 100% life? CAST HOLY LIGHT!
C) Is the tank not taking any damage? CAST HOLY LIGHT!


Uh.... No. that's not quite how it works. It's not doubling your hit points.
1 more Mastery on a Blood Specc'd DK is more damage mitigation on a hit, guaranteed. I knew that if I increased my mastery by 1 it would increase my blood shield by a set amount, which would decrease the damage I took from a hit. Guaranteed. no guess work. That's why Armor was such a good stat when you could get pieces with bonus armor. It was always there. It always reduced the damage. It was a constant.

Avoidance is a % chance to not be hit. It could give allow you to miss that swing from the boss, or it could fail you, and you still get hit. You could also get really unlucky and have avoidance fail you, multiple times, in a row. It's unlikely, but it could happen. For me, Avoidance was a "take what you get, but don't gear for it."

It's part of what attracted me to the DK when I quit my paladin. The Dk has/d more control over their survival. i'm unsure how the current active mitigation models are working out for the other classes, so I can't speak to how well they are performing. I can just say that I felt more in control with my DK than I did my paladin.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:30 pm
by Klaudandus
Sagara wrote:I blame the medium, and really took no offense. His answer made sense and I read it as "because we didn't want you to consider Haste the go-to stat and now you're in weird corner where you look outside "your" loot."

Which lead to my next question, which is the most important to me now.


Yeah, but still seems a bit tonedeaf since there is a reason why we look outside our loot, and they knew of the reason for quite a while.

We are just trying to maximize the cards that blizz decided to deal us.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:51 pm
by Sagara
I don't think he blames us in any way. Feels more like "yeah, we dun goofed, now we have to clean up and annoy you. We're looking for a way right now."

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:20 pm
by Darielle
7.46 Dodge
19.39 Parry
Then you have the 5 Miss. That's 31.85% Avoidance.

Then he goes up against a boss, and you lose 4.5 dodge, 4.5 parry, and 4.5 miss. -13.5

So he's sitting at 18.35% Avoidance Pre Buffs. Post Buffs? What.... 23 at the most?


Nitpick:
Base miss is 3%, and suppression reduces it to 0 against bosses, so it can effectively be ignored.

So wait.... Tank warriors get no benefit from Haste? What about Bears and Drunks?


Both Bears and Monks value Haste highly. Right now, pure Crit is the stacking point for Bears, but Haste is pretty much right up there, and on 25H bosses can be worth it to stack Haste over Crit. Haste will also scale naturally stronger to the point that it might be the thing that is universally stacked (for Bears) at some point in 5.2.
As Rhi mentioned, Bear autoattack generates Rage where Warrior does not. Bear autoattack also procs Tooth and Claw, which if you have the Rage generation for SD translates directly into more absorbs.

Monks get a lot from Haste. It not only makes buff maintenance more reliable/guaranteed, it also translates to more Energy/Chi.

On a side note, there's possibly one other reason they may be looking at ShoR to "solve Haste". It already provides a lot of % reduction in this tier, and that's only going to go up. It's already the kind of thing that can totally trivialise physical damage mechanics that are meant to be hard hitting, and they may not be fond of trying to account for that, so they may be thinking that toning down its power/scaling slightly is necessary.

Going back a few pages:
Haste makes the game-play more dynamic and more active. Removing it means that we will end up going back to the boring old 969 style rotation that a braindead monkey could perform to perfection


Even without Haste, we are not going back to anything resembling a 9-6-9-6, so I don't know what that's even about. Haste doesn't actually alter our abilities significantly, it just means you can do the same things faster.

Why do we need to have avoidance stats on our gear? Diminishing Returns are so strong even at low rating levels that the amount of avoidance you get per point simply isn't worth it. Why not simply scrap tanking stats altogether and allow all tanks to use a combination of haste, mastery and crit and remove a bit of bloat from the loot tables? We get a lot of Parry from Strength anyway, and two of the 5 tank classes don't even use those stats at all, they already tank with DPS gear (druid, monk).


I would suspect that's because Agi Leather is something they felt like doing back in the day when it was basically Rogues and Druids, and adding Monks to the pile, it's still fairly niche.
Having all plate tanks and all plate dps competing for the same items is wildly different simply because of how prevalent the players of the classes are, and I think they're trying very hard to avoid that, plus they also think that avoidance is more interesting than we do.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:31 pm
by Klaudandus
Sagara wrote:I don't think he blames us in any way. Feels more like "yeah, we dun goofed, now we have to clean up and annoy you. We're looking for a way right now."

To me still sounds like a bad guy getting caught by scooby and the rest of the mystery machine...

If it wasnt for those pesky theorycrafters, no one would have known about haste.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:33 pm
by Sagara
Cold and honest, I think you're getting worked up a bit.

He goofed, that much is clear, and we caught him red-handed. We're past the finger-pointing stage.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:41 pm
by Klaudandus
Fine. But only cuz you said so.

I think the biggest reason i am upset is because i spent all that time in beta to get the logs, and now i will be doing that all over again in the ptr...

Plus, its 90 degrees here!

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:41 pm
by Shoju
Darielle wrote:
7.46 Dodge
19.39 Parry
Then you have the 5 Miss. That's 31.85% Avoidance.

Then he goes up against a boss, and you lose 4.5 dodge, 4.5 parry, and 4.5 miss. -13.5

So he's sitting at 18.35% Avoidance Pre Buffs. Post Buffs? What.... 23 at the most?


Nitpick:
Base miss is 3%, and suppression reduces it to 0 against bosses, so it can effectively be ignored.


They lowered base miss to 3% as well? WTF?

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:43 pm
by Darielle
Yep.

They also had to consequently change the Night Elf racial to 2% Dodge instead of 2% Miss (keeping it Miss would have meant the Racial would have been 0.5% miss because the first 1.5% would have always been suppressed)

Edit:
To get back to something I was thinking of as well, gear inflation this expansion is going to be much larger than ever. We're looking at 540+ items in 5.2 alone. Possibly eclipsing 600 in the next tier. A lot of classes are going to get some insane scaling as a result (Ferals can already get into the 80's for Crit with trinket procs, Fury Warriors might even hit 100% crit)

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:53 pm
by Sagara
Klaudandus wrote:Fine. But only cuz you said so.

I think the biggest reason i am upset is because i spent all that time in beta to get the logs, and now i will be doing that all over again in the ptr...

Plus, its 90 degrees here!


Not saying you're not in your right, just that that's not the question right now. So, yeah, understandable :)

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:03 pm
by Shoju
Darielle wrote:Yep.

They also had to consequently change the Night Elf racial to 2% Dodge instead of 2% Miss (keeping it Miss would have meant the Racial would have been 0.5% miss because the first 1.5% would have always been suppressed)

Edit:
To get back to something I was thinking of as well, gear inflation this expansion is going to be much larger than ever. We're looking at 540+ items in 5.2 alone. Possibly eclipsing 600 in the next tier. A lot of classes are going to get some insane scaling as a result (Ferals can already get into the 80's for Crit with trinket procs, Fury Warriors might even hit 100% crit)


Thunderforged is TOC2.0 with an added element of RANDOMNESS!

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:20 pm
by Malthrax
Shoju wrote:Thunderforged is TOC2.0 with an added element of RANDOMNESS!


THUNDEREND BEASTS
THUN'DRAXXUS (Trifling Gnome!!!!)
THUNDER-CHAMPIONS!!!
TWIN THUND'RYRS
THUND'ARAK!!


Oooh... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:20 pm
by djlar
I just see the frustrations thread be flooded with "it's been X amount of weeks and a Thunderforged item hasn't drop yet"