patch 5.2 ?

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, PsiVen, Sabindeus, Aergis

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:14 am

The problem with our active mitigation may just have been that with haste stacking our uptime on ShoR would be getting higher than they wanted in later tiers.

Edit: Heh, I keep saying "our" and "we". I haven't tanked in years.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4829
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:26 am

Nooska wrote:The players way of thinking can't be a mystery to them though - GC has directly said they follow, amongst other places, maintankadin (and I' would guess Sacredduty) (as I asked specifically about maintankadin).

So if they think we are "wrong" they should try to convince us TDR is better than spike reduction (faster lower damage attacks as the norm for instance) - avoidance is better at that, though it would sitll be contradictory to the active mitigation model, as avoidance is, by definition, passive mitigation (as I already said on twitter).


Then that's being overly optimistic at best, willfully ignorant at worst.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9362
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:30 am

Meh, if they can produce numbers and empirical test data showing that their approach is better and that Theck is wrong, then I'll have no problem with changing. Until that time comes, however, I'm sticking with the haste crowd.
Fetzie | Protection/Holy Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Former Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:38 am

Fetzie wrote:Meh, if they can produce numbers and empirical test data showing that their approach is better and that Theck is wrong, then I'll have no problem with changing. Until that time comes, however, I'm sticking with the haste crowd.


And that's my point.

The reason why it is a sticking point is because paladins have the most counterintuitive stat weights of all tanks, which again, its all because of our AM mechanics, and which they knew about since well before live.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9362
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:46 am

I had thought it was really weird that Paladins liked Haste so much. I was looking around at the other tanks, and most of them were doing the hit / exp then tank stats thing, while paladins were stacking haste.

After doing some reading, it's not surprising. At the end of T11 and in the early stages of T12, there was a big push in the DK community to try and fuel our active mitigation as much as possible. There were sims being done to see how much better off we'd be by stacking our hit and EXP to the cap, and then stacking mastery until our eyes bled. In the end, it became "If your pushing bleeding edge, get capped, and then mastery, and forget avoidance all together. If not bleeding edge, MASTERY IS YOUR GOD."

If Haste is fueling yours the way that ours was fueled in T12, They REALLY shouldn't be surprised to see you do it.

When they started talking 5.0, and how they wanted tanks to care about hitting more, I was worried that "tank stats" were going to take a back seat. Then, they announced that bosses ignore portions of dodge and parry. Then, they changed block to a separate roll.

Couple all of this with such low avoidance values, the return of math olympics for DR (Something that I remember them specifically saying they were trying to lessen in the game.), and I guess I don't understand what they thought was going to happen?

Pardon me, while I dig into theck's stats a little. Theck's Armory shows
7.46 Dodge
19.39 Parry
Then you have the 5 Miss. That's 31.85% Avoidance.

Then he goes up against a boss, and you lose 4.5 dodge, 4.5 parry, and 4.5 miss. -13.5

So he's sitting at 18.35% Avoidance Pre Buffs. Post Buffs? What.... 23 at the most?

What on earth did they think was going to happen? Seriously. This game has been going long enough that they should have seen that the player base was going to be looking to remove the RNG, that they were going to be looking for the constants with incoming tank damage. As long as I played the game, Tanking was always preached to me as "Spikes Kill". Smooth out your damage intake, and you make your healers happy, and more apt to keep you alive.

If Haste is the most efficient way to do it, it's not surprising that it was done that way.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5068
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:51 am

Shoju wrote:What on earth did they think was going to happen? Seriously. This game has been going long enough that they should have seen that the player base was going to be looking to remove the RNG, that they were going to be looking for the constants with incoming tank damage. As long as I played the game, Tanking was always preached to me as "Spikes Kill". Smooth out your damage intake, and you make your healers happy, and more apt to keep you alive.

If Haste is the most efficient way to do it, it's not surprising that it was done that way.

Image
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9362
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby honorshammer » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:22 am

KysenMurrin wrote:The only solutions if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They moved us from Spell Power to Strength in the late-middle of Burning Crusade (Black Temple - or at least my guild was on Black Temple.....).
User avatar
honorshammer
Moderator
 
Posts: 1525
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:31 am

Thread on the US forum: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709232267
Thread on the EU forum: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6444175401

In case anybody feels inclined to waste 20 seconds of their life sending GC a link via twitter :)
Last edited by Fetzie on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fetzie | Protection/Holy Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Former Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:48 am

honorshammer wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:The only solutions if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They moved us from Spell Power to Strength in the late-middle of Burning Crusade (Black Temple - or at least my guild was on Black Temple.....).

They moved us to STR in 3.0 (pre-wotlk patch) and converted all paladin tank gear to STR gear.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 8686
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:50 am

Sagara wrote:
Fetzie wrote:
The only solution if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They are giving warriors haste scaling in 5.2, and how hard could it be to tell a database to replace all values for dodge rating with crit rating, and all values for parry rating with haste rating?


Didn't know that and would love to read about it. Any pointers while I try and look around?


Warriors are getting double value from haste from items and consumables. Since haste is about as good for DPS as dodge or parry is for DPS warriors.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:31 am

Fetzie wrote:Thread on the US forum: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709232267
Thread on the EU forum: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6444175401

In case anybody feels inclined to waste 20 seconds of their life sending GC a link via twitter :)

20 seconds wasted.
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1547
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:45 am

Flex wrote:
Sagara wrote:
Fetzie wrote:They are giving warriors haste scaling in 5.2, and how hard could it be to tell a database to replace all values for dodge rating with crit rating, and all values for parry rating with haste rating?


Didn't know that and would love to read about it. Any pointers while I try and look around?


Warriors are getting double value from haste from items and consumables. Since haste is about as good for DPS as dodge or parry is for DPS warriors.


It was nerfed down to a 1.5 multiplier on haste for warriors, and as Flex points out this will only have any impact at all for DPS. Tank warriors get 0 survivability scaling from either crit or haste beyond making the boss die a miniscule amount faster, so this is of little relevance to this discussion. If you removed all dodge from gear then tank warriors would only get survivability scaling from pieces with parry and mastery after hitting hit/exp caps.
Rhiannon
 
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:17 am

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:52 am

Rhiannon wrote:It was nerfed down to a 1.5 multiplier on haste for warriors, and as Flex points out this will only have any impact at all for DPS. Tank warriors get 0 survivability scaling from either crit or haste beyond making the boss die a miniscule amount faster, so this is of little relevance to this discussion. If you removed all dodge from gear then tank warriors would only get survivability scaling from pieces with parry and mastery after hitting hit/exp caps.



So wait.... Tank warriors get no benefit from Haste? What about Bears and Drunks?

DK tanks even get benefit from Haste (Unless I missed that change). It's just not so much that you are going to stack it over Mastery. Haste still has an effect on Rune Cooldown right? I'm not saying it's huge, but if you were in fact needing to choose between a piece of gear that had Crit and Haste on it as a Blood DK (say.... it's a HUGE Ilvl upgrade, and the stat is paired with mastery/hit/exp) the haste piece would "technically" be better, since Crit would only affect DPS/TPS as The Active Mitigation MOdel for a DK ignores Crits.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5068
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:01 am

Monks love haste, as both their energy regen and auto-attack rate scale with it, and monks gain elusive brew stacks from auto-attack crits, meaning higher average dodge. Obviously this means they also scale with crit, all of which is just as well as leather gear is not itemised with dodge.

Bear auto-attack generates rage, so haste does increase their rage generation (as well as reducing the gcd on faerie fire for what that's worth). Crit auto-attacks and mangles generate more rage, so they scale with that too, again just as well as they're using leather.

Warrior auto-attacks in def stance generate no rage, and none of their rotational abilities are on the spell gcd, so no haste scaling beyond slightly more white damage. Likewise no survival mechanic is tied to critical strike, crit block chance is determined entirely by mastery.

Edit: note I'm just providing information, not making a complaint as to whether this is fair or not or anything. Prot warriors gets rage generation from dodge/parry via the enabling of revenge, so these stats double-dip to some extent in survivability terms. For our raid group it's been working out quite well to be honest (prot warrior, prot paladin, me as fury): I hoover up anything with crit on it, the pally takes anything with haste while the warrior takes any more "traditional" tank pieces. If haste's value is significantly diminished for prot paladin that will be quite annoying for our particular situation.
Rhiannon
 
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:17 am

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:19 am

yeah DK rune regeneration is affected by haste - I actually prefereed to get some haste on Morosin for a better feel of "rotation".
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1547
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby bldavis » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:21 am

yes afaik haste still affects rune speed, which helps cause haste is god for frost and i have to use alot of the same gear for both frost and blood
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:03 am

Is there a reasoning behind this? It honestly feels like you're taking the opinions of a mysterious part of the playerbase (like the same portion who you quoted as "not liking DivPurP because it was too RNG") and changing the entire spec paradigm around it. Why push for MORE class homogenization when the game already has WAY too much?



The game just isn't currently designed to support it. It creates potential problems such as:

- A Prot paladin competing with a Frost DK or Ret paladin over gear, meaning there isn't enough DPS plate to go around.
- A Prot paladin considering a tier set with dodge and parry on it to be "garbage" because it doesn't stack all haste.
- A Prot paladin looking at a Ret 2pc set bonus that she normally wouldn't touch because now the stats aren't that bad either.

In a world where tanking plate didn't exist or every loot system used the personal LFR one or 100% efficient reforging then it might work.

We understand that having a lot of haste feels fun and visceral and is more dependable than dodge and parry. We'll try to come up with a solution that keeps that in mind.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=48#949
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9362
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:15 am

Whenever you dodge, parry or block the remaining cooldown of your CS and HotR is reduced by 0.1 seconds.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:24 am

Notsureifserious
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9362
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:26 am

Honestly, i'd rather bite the bullet, lose SoB and get done with it than suffer more rollercoaster, and get back to haste (and crit?) stacking in 6.0 where all tank stats DIE !!
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3272
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:27 am

Klaudandus wrote:Notsureifserious


That'd be my solution *shrug*
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:35 am

Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Notsureifserious


That'd be my solution *shrug*

It would need to reduce the gcd as well by the same amount to begin with, id say.

Otherwise, the ability might be ready but we cant use it, making the proc go to waste.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9362
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Jadhzia » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:44 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Is there a reasoning behind this? It honestly feels like you're taking the opinions of a mysterious part of the playerbase (like the same portion who you quoted as "not liking DivPurP because it was too RNG") and changing the entire spec paradigm around it. Why push for MORE class homogenization when the game already has WAY too much?



The game just isn't currently designed to support it. It creates potential problems such as:

- A Prot paladin competing with a Frost DK or Ret paladin over gear, meaning there isn't enough DPS plate to go around.
- A Prot paladin considering a tier set with dodge and parry on it to be "garbage" because it doesn't stack all haste.
- A Prot paladin looking at a Ret 2pc set bonus that she normally wouldn't touch because now the stats aren't that bad either.

In a world where tanking plate didn't exist or every loot system used the personal LFR one or 100% efficient reforging then it might work.

We understand that having a lot of haste feels fun and visceral and is more dependable than dodge and parry. We'll try to come up with a solution that keeps that in mind.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=48#949


This isn't good, and I find it sad. The current system is well-thought, fun and efficient. So of course it has to go, instead of building further improvements from it... What can be salvaged from active mitigation if we are forced to stack avoidance? Even druid tanks don't stack those.
Jadhzia, Protection Paladin, EU-Sargeras
Jadhzia
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:42 am

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:47 am

Who is going to stack avoidance?
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Mannstein » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:58 am

Flex wrote:Who is going to stack avoidance?

Blood Spec/Prot/bear/Drunken monk stance gets twice the hit point... aka 1.4Milion on a Heroic equiped tank. Boss hits for 300k...
You don't have avoidance? Prepare to dry the mana from your healers...
You have avoidance? You healers will be able to save mana.

Why increase on the HP? So if a healer can reactively heal if you have bad luck, and to prevent the hard decisions that a Holy pala had in Ulduar:
A) Is the tank at less then 100% life? CAST HOLY LIGHT!
B) Is the tank at "more" then 100% life? CAST HOLY LIGHT!
C) Is the tank not taking any damage? CAST HOLY LIGHT!
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
Mannstein
 
Posts: 326
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:40 am

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest