patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:14 am

The problem with our active mitigation may just have been that with haste stacking our uptime on ShoR would be getting higher than they wanted in later tiers.

Edit: Heh, I keep saying "our" and "we". I haven't tanked in years.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:26 am

Nooska wrote:The players way of thinking can't be a mystery to them though - GC has directly said they follow, amongst other places, maintankadin (and I' would guess Sacredduty) (as I asked specifically about maintankadin).

So if they think we are "wrong" they should try to convince us TDR is better than spike reduction (faster lower damage attacks as the norm for instance) - avoidance is better at that, though it would sitll be contradictory to the active mitigation model, as avoidance is, by definition, passive mitigation (as I already said on twitter).


Then that's being overly optimistic at best, willfully ignorant at worst.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:30 am

Meh, if they can produce numbers and empirical test data showing that their approach is better and that Theck is wrong, then I'll have no problem with changing. Until that time comes, however, I'm sticking with the haste crowd.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:38 am

Fetzie wrote:Meh, if they can produce numbers and empirical test data showing that their approach is better and that Theck is wrong, then I'll have no problem with changing. Until that time comes, however, I'm sticking with the haste crowd.


And that's my point.

The reason why it is a sticking point is because paladins have the most counterintuitive stat weights of all tanks, which again, its all because of our AM mechanics, and which they knew about since well before live.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:46 am

I had thought it was really weird that Paladins liked Haste so much. I was looking around at the other tanks, and most of them were doing the hit / exp then tank stats thing, while paladins were stacking haste.

After doing some reading, it's not surprising. At the end of T11 and in the early stages of T12, there was a big push in the DK community to try and fuel our active mitigation as much as possible. There were sims being done to see how much better off we'd be by stacking our hit and EXP to the cap, and then stacking mastery until our eyes bled. In the end, it became "If your pushing bleeding edge, get capped, and then mastery, and forget avoidance all together. If not bleeding edge, MASTERY IS YOUR GOD."

If Haste is fueling yours the way that ours was fueled in T12, They REALLY shouldn't be surprised to see you do it.

When they started talking 5.0, and how they wanted tanks to care about hitting more, I was worried that "tank stats" were going to take a back seat. Then, they announced that bosses ignore portions of dodge and parry. Then, they changed block to a separate roll.

Couple all of this with such low avoidance values, the return of math olympics for DR (Something that I remember them specifically saying they were trying to lessen in the game.), and I guess I don't understand what they thought was going to happen?

Pardon me, while I dig into theck's stats a little. Theck's Armory shows
7.46 Dodge
19.39 Parry
Then you have the 5 Miss. That's 31.85% Avoidance.

Then he goes up against a boss, and you lose 4.5 dodge, 4.5 parry, and 4.5 miss. -13.5

So he's sitting at 18.35% Avoidance Pre Buffs. Post Buffs? What.... 23 at the most?

What on earth did they think was going to happen? Seriously. This game has been going long enough that they should have seen that the player base was going to be looking to remove the RNG, that they were going to be looking for the constants with incoming tank damage. As long as I played the game, Tanking was always preached to me as "Spikes Kill". Smooth out your damage intake, and you make your healers happy, and more apt to keep you alive.

If Haste is the most efficient way to do it, it's not surprising that it was done that way.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:51 am

Shoju wrote:What on earth did they think was going to happen? Seriously. This game has been going long enough that they should have seen that the player base was going to be looking to remove the RNG, that they were going to be looking for the constants with incoming tank damage. As long as I played the game, Tanking was always preached to me as "Spikes Kill". Smooth out your damage intake, and you make your healers happy, and more apt to keep you alive.

If Haste is the most efficient way to do it, it's not surprising that it was done that way.

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby honorshammer » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:22 am

KysenMurrin wrote:The only solutions if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They moved us from Spell Power to Strength in the late-middle of Burning Crusade (Black Temple - or at least my guild was on Black Temple.....).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:31 am

Thread on the US forum: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709232267
Thread on the EU forum: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6444175401

In case anybody feels inclined to waste 20 seconds of their life sending GC a link via twitter :)
Last edited by Fetzie on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:48 am

honorshammer wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:The only solutions if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They moved us from Spell Power to Strength in the late-middle of Burning Crusade (Black Temple - or at least my guild was on Black Temple.....).

They moved us to STR in 3.0 (pre-wotlk patch) and converted all paladin tank gear to STR gear.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:50 am

Sagara wrote:
Fetzie wrote:
The only solution if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They are giving warriors haste scaling in 5.2, and how hard could it be to tell a database to replace all values for dodge rating with crit rating, and all values for parry rating with haste rating?


Didn't know that and would love to read about it. Any pointers while I try and look around?


Warriors are getting double value from haste from items and consumables. Since haste is about as good for DPS as dodge or parry is for DPS warriors.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:31 am

Fetzie wrote:Thread on the US forum: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709232267
Thread on the EU forum: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6444175401

In case anybody feels inclined to waste 20 seconds of their life sending GC a link via twitter :)

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:45 am

Flex wrote:
Sagara wrote:
Fetzie wrote:They are giving warriors haste scaling in 5.2, and how hard could it be to tell a database to replace all values for dodge rating with crit rating, and all values for parry rating with haste rating?


Didn't know that and would love to read about it. Any pointers while I try and look around?


Warriors are getting double value from haste from items and consumables. Since haste is about as good for DPS as dodge or parry is for DPS warriors.


It was nerfed down to a 1.5 multiplier on haste for warriors, and as Flex points out this will only have any impact at all for DPS. Tank warriors get 0 survivability scaling from either crit or haste beyond making the boss die a miniscule amount faster, so this is of little relevance to this discussion. If you removed all dodge from gear then tank warriors would only get survivability scaling from pieces with parry and mastery after hitting hit/exp caps.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:52 am

Rhiannon wrote:It was nerfed down to a 1.5 multiplier on haste for warriors, and as Flex points out this will only have any impact at all for DPS. Tank warriors get 0 survivability scaling from either crit or haste beyond making the boss die a miniscule amount faster, so this is of little relevance to this discussion. If you removed all dodge from gear then tank warriors would only get survivability scaling from pieces with parry and mastery after hitting hit/exp caps.



So wait.... Tank warriors get no benefit from Haste? What about Bears and Drunks?

DK tanks even get benefit from Haste (Unless I missed that change). It's just not so much that you are going to stack it over Mastery. Haste still has an effect on Rune Cooldown right? I'm not saying it's huge, but if you were in fact needing to choose between a piece of gear that had Crit and Haste on it as a Blood DK (say.... it's a HUGE Ilvl upgrade, and the stat is paired with mastery/hit/exp) the haste piece would "technically" be better, since Crit would only affect DPS/TPS as The Active Mitigation MOdel for a DK ignores Crits.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:01 am

Monks love haste, as both their energy regen and auto-attack rate scale with it, and monks gain elusive brew stacks from auto-attack crits, meaning higher average dodge. Obviously this means they also scale with crit, all of which is just as well as leather gear is not itemised with dodge.

Bear auto-attack generates rage, so haste does increase their rage generation (as well as reducing the gcd on faerie fire for what that's worth). Crit auto-attacks and mangles generate more rage, so they scale with that too, again just as well as they're using leather.

Warrior auto-attacks in def stance generate no rage, and none of their rotational abilities are on the spell gcd, so no haste scaling beyond slightly more white damage. Likewise no survival mechanic is tied to critical strike, crit block chance is determined entirely by mastery.

Edit: note I'm just providing information, not making a complaint as to whether this is fair or not or anything. Prot warriors gets rage generation from dodge/parry via the enabling of revenge, so these stats double-dip to some extent in survivability terms. For our raid group it's been working out quite well to be honest (prot warrior, prot paladin, me as fury): I hoover up anything with crit on it, the pally takes anything with haste while the warrior takes any more "traditional" tank pieces. If haste's value is significantly diminished for prot paladin that will be quite annoying for our particular situation.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:19 am

yeah DK rune regeneration is affected by haste - I actually prefereed to get some haste on Morosin for a better feel of "rotation".
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